Dirk De Ridder: Dreams Can Unlock Ways to Cure

[mick]

Dreams Can Unlock Ways to Cure

Dreams can unlock ways of curing both phantom pain and tinnitus, the head of Dunedin's neurosurgery research unit says.

Belgian neurosurgeon Prof Dirk De Ridder, who took up a Dunedin Hospital post in February as head of neurosurgery, gave his inaugural lecture professorial lecture - ''To dream is to cure phantoms'' - in Dunedin last night.

Prof De Ridder, who also leads the new University of Otago academic neurosurgery research unit, the first of its kind in the country, told the audience of about 140 that the brain acted as a ''prediction machine''.

Tinnitus, or phantom sound, and phantom pain - which is suffered by some people who have had amputations - were ''prediction errors'' caused by a lack of information.

''The brain cannot stand a lack information. If it doesn't have information, then it goes and looks for information and if there is not enough it will go to memory.''

''So when your hand is amputated or your hearing is gone ... your brain goes back to memory and pulls back the last stored [memory] and that's going to be the phantom pain ... or the phantom sound,'' Prof De Ridder said.

In the case of tinnitus, which occurred after people lost hearing at a specific frequency, the brain re-created the lost frequency from memory.

''The prediction says [for example] there should be 4000 hertz in,'' he said.

However, almost all people who suffered from phantom pain or tinnitus did not experience it in their dreams.

If aspects of the ''dream state'' could be replicated, this could be used to help combat phantom pain and tinnitus, Prof De Ridder said.

 

[carlover]

That is so intersting. I have some pretty strong dreams and in them I never have tinnitus.

 

[Leah]

Same for me.

 

[jazz]

@mick, interesting article, but it took De Ridder a while to make this observation! If he had been following Tinnitus Talk, he would've discovered that many people talk about the relationship between sleep and tinnitus. For many, sleep is that magic "reset" switch after a bad day. For others, sleep can increase tinnitus--especially if you go to sleep quiet then wake up at 3 AM with a siren in your heard. And for nearly everyone, getting a poor night's sleep insures the next day will be noisy!

But I digress... Actually, I've wondered why sleep studies with tinnitus sufferers have not been conducted. Tinnitus is associated with abnormal brain waves, especially delta waves--which are also indicative of deep sleep. There's obviously a correlation, and sleep studies might uncover them. Who knows? Perhaps, De Ridder or someone else will invent a neuromodulation cap--like the ones used for neurofeedback--that can zap our brains back to normal while we sleep! Or, more likely for De Ridder, invent a deep brain implant to suppress abnormal brain activity during sleep.

 

[erik]

Jazz, I totally concur! As you point out, many tinnitus sufferers already know this. I know that if I have a bad or loud tinnitus day, it can reset during my sleep so that when I awake, it is a low tinnitus day. Or if I have a rough night and my sleep is somehow limited, my tinnitus is almost certain to be louder or worse the next day.

For me there is a correlation between quality of sleep (the deeper, uninterrupted sleep the better) and duration of sleep (more hours, the better) and whether I will have a good or bad tinnitus day. This is usually the rule for me I would say 90% of the time.

 

[Codaz]

Dr. De Ridder is a well known professor who focuses on tinnitus. He was previously situated in the hospital of Antwerp, Belgium, but has now moved to the University of Otago, New Zealand.

He has a new video on YouTube; it's quite long and quite scientific, but some of you may be interested.

 

[attheedgeofscience]

Best moment was at 21:52.

As for tinnitus, well, I never really found that in the video.

 

[Codaz]

@attheedgeofscience, why is this a study designed to fail?

 

[attheedgeofscience]

why is this a study designed to fail?

Because a therapeutic potential of Flupirtine in relation to tinnitus suppression is unlikely to be encountered before a daily dosage towards the higher end of the daily allowed dosage spectrum.

Pharmacodynamics of potassium channel openers in cultured neuronal networks

And for complete remission, a longer period than three weeks of treatment would probably be required.

I am not saying that the study was specifically designed to fail, but I am questioning why they did not divide participants into e.g., 3 groups - one group doing 200 mg/day, another at 400 mg/day, and finally a group doing 600 mg/day...

 

[Samir]

This comes as no surprise to me. I have had episodes where I hear no tinnitus at all when I find myself in a state between sleep and consciousness. It's what you would call drowsy or "half asleep" in English. I'm not talking about simple reduction or not paying attention to it; I'm talking about total submission. But this of course does not last for long. If the duration could be extended then I would more or less be cured. I know I am not the only one to have experienced this. But how do you keep this state of mind? What's the plan?

My short episodes of tinnitus submission usually last less than about 30 seconds. To tell you the truth, it's hard to tell if it's real or of it's my mind playing tricks on me. But I have experienced it a few times by now, and I have managed to cross the line and walk deep into the conscious side more than once to know that what I have experienced is real and not a dream. Each time it felt heavenly, and I wanted to hold onto this feeling. But each time the tinnitus crept back in as I became increasingly conscious. So I say go ahead Dr. Riddler, do your magic trick and make this moment of trance and tranquility last forever!

 

[Nobody19]

Brain research is still in its infancy, but I personally believe it's the key to curing chronic tinnitus and hyperacusis.

 

[star-affinity]

Brain research is still in its infancy, but I personally believe it's the key to curing chronic tinnitus and hyperacusis.

This also the case if the tinnitus and hyperacusis got triggered in conjunction with hearing loss? Will be interesting to see if fixing the hearing loss will get rid of the tinnitus in those cases. I sure hope so.

 

[Juan]

For me the relationship between sleep and tinnitus is this: when I wake up progressively, in this state of being half conscious, there is no tinnitus until I am fully awake.

Tinnitus appears when I am totally conscious and fully awake and alert. So it is like my brain is loading a "program" and there is no tinnitus until it loads, and then there it is.

Anyway my tinnitus fluctuates for no apparent reason, and it is sometimes reactive and sometimes not, so I just try not to pay attention to it. Some days it is more annoying and other days are better... in general, it is a pain in the ass.

 

[Damocles]

Doctor De better get Ridder our tinnitus!

PS: Anyone saying I stole this off @danielthor is a liar and should be suspended from Tinnitus Talk immediately.

 

[Foamearplugssuck]

when I wake up progressively, in this state of being half conscious, there is no tinnitus until I am fully awake.

Yeah I have a similar kind of thing. As I'm walking up I don't have tinnitus, but once I'm awake I hear it, very quietly. Then after 30 seconds it spikes back up. Sigh.

 

[AfroSnowman]

Yeah I have a similar kind of thing. As I'm walking up I don't have tinnitus, but once I'm awake I hear it, very quietly. Then after 30 seconds it spikes back up. Sigh.

Mine happens as I fall to sleep. I have a state as I near sleep, not so much half conscious because I am fully aware, but clearly a neurological state where something changes in my brain, because I can hear the screech fade rapidly into nothing but when I try to hold this state my mind engages somehow and the tinnitus instantly pops back on.

 

[SD7]

Mine happens as I fall to sleep. I have a state as I near sleep, not so much half conscious because I am fully aware, but clearly a neurological state where something changes in my brain, because I can hear the screech fade rapidly into nothing but when I try to hold this state my mind engages somehow and the tinnitus instantly pops back on.

I have both. I think the latter is a huge blessing as it does make that final turn to sleep a lot easier instead of having it continually blaring.

 

[Juan]

Yeah I have a similar kind of thing. As I'm walking up I don't have tinnitus, but once I'm awake I hear it, very quietly. Then after 30 seconds it spikes back up. Sigh.

Today for instance I woke up with no tinnitus, and after being fully awake, it's there but it's not loud. However, as a sort of trade-off, I feel and notice more my hearing loss.

This totally sucks...

 

[Juan]

Mine happens as I fall to sleep. I have a state as I near sleep, not so much half conscious because I am fully aware, but clearly a neurological state where something changes in my brain, because I can hear the screech fade rapidly into nothing but when I try to hold this state my mind engages somehow and the tinnitus instantly pops back on.

Very well described, very accurate, and similar to my experience but to me it happens when I am waking up and in that state of half consciousness.

 

[Ehren M]

For me the relationship between sleep and tinnitus is this: when I wake up progressively, in this state of being half conscious, there is no tinnitus until I am fully awake.

Tinnitus appears when I am totally conscious and fully awake and alert. So it is like my brain is loading a "program" and there is no tinnitus until it loads, and then there it is.

Anyway my tinnitus fluctuates for no apparent reason, and it is sometimes reactive and sometimes not, so I just try not to pay attention to it. Some days it is more annoying and other days are better... in general, it is a pain in the ass.

Mine is the same.

 

[Sironketchup]

I know that when I got tinnitus I was lacking in REM sleep.

Maybe getting proper REM sleep can cure tinnitus?

If it wouldn't be so hard to sleep with this little mfcker...

 

[David S]

I sleep quite well with intrusive tinnitus. It fades away. Almost like my hearing disconnects. I can remember waking up sometimes and then some 200-500 ms later my hearing comes to life.

 

[GlennS]

I sleep quite well with intrusive tinnitus. It fades away. Almost like my hearing disconnects. I can remember waking up sometimes and then some 200-500 ms later my hearing comes to life.

That's how it is for me. Deep sleep is really the only escape from tinnitus other than aggressive masking. The trick is actually entering deep sleep.

 

[GlennS]

This may be sort of a non-sequitur but I remember an interview long ago between James (Scotty) Doohan and Howard Stern where Doohan was swearing behind alpha-waves (aka deep sleep) as a way to maintain health in old age. While Doohan remained virile enough to have kids as a senior citizen, he also eventually developed Alzheimers. Of course, he was also pretty overweight, etc...

Anyway, my feeling is that while lack of good sleep may add a risk factor that having good sleep, on its own, probably has pretty limited curative effects.

Wellness is really a multi-pronged/holistic thing. You can't just focus on one thing. It's a lot of things that add up or take away.

 

[Joeseph Stope]

This may be sort of a non-sequitur but I remember an interview long ago between James (Scotty) Doohan and Howard Stern where Doohan was swearing behind alpha-waves (aka deep sleep) as a way to maintain health in old age. While Doohan remained virile enough to have kids as a senior citizen, he also eventually developed Alzheimers. Of course, he was also pretty overweight, etc...

Anyway, my feeling is that while lack of good sleep may add a risk factor that having good sleep, on its own, probably has pretty limited curative effects.

Wellness is really a multi-pronged/holistic thing. You can't just focus on one thing. It's a lot of things that add up or take away.

This conversation seems to be steering towards the assumption that the source of tinnitus is in the brain rather than the Cochlea (seems to be -- it could of course be in both). Well let me add my anecdote to the confusion:

I have been following one or two of the unsolved mysteries/murders on the internet over the years. One of these dealt with the kidnapping (or disappearance) of a young three-year-old English girl in Portugal. The name probably means nothing to yous States-side. But long story short, she was on vacation with her parents and two younger siblings. The parents left her in the apartment to join friends in a local restaurant 100 yards away, checking up on her and the other friends' children every 20 minutes -- and then she was gone!

It went viral on the internet and news but to this day no trace of her has ever been found. She was very very photogenic and the picture of her in her childhood innocence and need of protection would "drive iron tears down Pluto's cheek". Many wicked tongues on the internet chat-boards pointed the obvious finger at the parents (both doctors)... that they must have given her too much of a pharmaceutical to get her to sleep. Well this story has gripped the general public of Western Europe and is still in thrall over here.

On the 15th anniversary a television appeal for information was broadcast Europe-wide as the cops were at a dead-end. And what happened? This German bloke was drinking beer with his mate in a bar in Germany while the appeal was being screened. He declared emphatically -- so the story goes -- that she was dead! .... and that he knows all about it. Well the curiosity of said mate was mightily piqued and he went with the story to the local German cops. The cops found that the bloke in question ticked all the boxes. Lived in the holiday town where she had been staying. Had a history of sex-abuse with young children. Had a criminal record. Used to break into apartments to steal. His cell phone had been used in the vicinity around the time of the "disappearance"... This investigation is still running and may or may not come to court, but for me it was something electric. I spent the entire day engrossed in researching what this or that newspaper said and what this or that blog said etc., etc. In short I was completely in another world. Towards the end of the day with hunger pangs I had to think about preparing the dinner and get back to the real world. Oh yes! Where was I? And there I was. Back with my tinnitus.

And this story is compatible with the old theory/assumption I've heard knocking about that tinnitus has something to do with the brain losing its ability to filter out unwanted noise.

Well I hope I this assumption is wrong because then all the good work of Pipeline Therapeutics, Otonomy, and Frequency Therapeutics will all be for the cat.

 

[David S]

My feeling is that tinnitus with tonal quality is brain based or somatic, and might also be damage of the inner hair cells.

Tinnitus without any tonal quality (cicadas, crickets, electric buzzing, shortcuts) are based on malfunction of the spontaneous nerve activity in the inner ear. I suspect the outer hair cells for this kind of tinnitus. This is also what I have.

 

[AfroSnowman]

My feeling is that tinnitus with tonal quality is brain based or somatic, and might also be damage of the inner hair cells.

Tinnitus without any tonal quality (cicadas, crickets, electric buzzing, shortcuts) are based on malfunction of the spontaneous nerve activity in the inner ear. I suspect the outer hair cells for this kind of tinnitus. This is also what I have.

Mine is somatic but without any tonal quality.

 

[David S]

Mine is somatic but without any tonal quality.

How did you come to this conclusion? Where do you perceive your tinnitus?

I can also generate a sound by biting hard or open my mouth widely.

However, I do not think that this is connected to my Cicadas, high frequency buzzing tinnitus.

 

[AfroSnowman]

I perceive it in both ears and head. Sometimes more in one place than the other. Usually a multitude of sounds if I pay attention to it, crickets, crackles, and surges rarely but occasionally just a high pitched electric buzz.

I guess, trying it right now, I'd say 70% of it changes pitch when I open my mouth wide.

 

[tracyNYC]

One of these dealt with the kidnapping (or disappearance) of a young three-year-old English girl in Portugal. The name probably means nothing to yous States-side. But long story short, she was on vacation with her parents and two younger siblings. The parents left her in the apartment to join friends in a local restaurant 100 yards away, checking up on her and the other friends' children every 20 minutes -- and then she was gone!

Ah, this is Madeleine McCann. We do know of this state-side and when news breaks, we hear about it. Very sad.

I too go down murder/mystery rabbit holes and can be completely unaware of my tinnitus. Once back to reality, boom... there it is again.