Do Adipose Stem Cells Work and Are They Safe?

Discussion in 'Support' started by another sean, Sep 2, 2018.

    1. another sean
      Studious

      another sean Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Los Angeles
      Tinnitus Since:
      2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Long duration of low audio
      So I have been debating getting Adipose Stem Cells for a while but I always rule it out in the end due to fears of it causing cancer.

      But I may be confusing that with Pluripotent or Cord Blood Stem Cells.

      So are Adipose Stem Cells safe in terms of not causing cancer?

      If they are safe, any supporting links would be great.

      If they are safe, are they effective?

      I have seen some cases here with success and some with failure.

      I also was just reading about the story of Chloe Sohl but then read that the clinic she went to got sued.

      So I'm trying to get the general consensus here to help me make a decision. I am not looking for a total reduction of my tinnitus but at the very least stop it from being reactive to I can go outside again.
       
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    2. Samantha R

      Samantha R Member Benefactor Ambassador

      Location:
      Geelong Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      @another sean
      I see quite a few posts about this topic, and the truth is, nobody really knows.
      Adipose stem cells appear to be safe - as to whether they work on noise induced tinnitus, well, the jury is out and I think that largely depends on the cause of your tinnitus.
      I do not believe that delivered via IV that they will repair cochlea hair cells.
      You should Google the pulmonary first past effect - the stem cells are attracted to the areas where there is damage - and most of this damage in the body is in places exposed to external toxins - ie. the lungs. Initially the stem cells are trapped there....
      While some will reach other areas of the body, it seems highly unlikely to me that they will reach and repair cochlea hair cells.
      In the case of Chloe Sohl, from memory, her tinnitus and hearing loss was auto immune. In this case, I believe stems have a good chance of helping due to their effect on the immune system.
      I tried umbilical cord MSC's in Thailand, and had no change whatsoever. I tried them because I didn't know the cause of my tinnitus, so I felt it worth a shot.
      However, if you don't try, you won't know.
      If you can afford it, and as adipose stem cells are more routinely given to patients for all sorts of conditions, why wouldn't you try?
       
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    3. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      another sean
      Studious

      another sean Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Los Angeles
      Tinnitus Since:
      2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Long duration of low audio
      The biggest factor was concerns it having the potential to cause cancer. So I'm trying to find out if that's really the case or not.
       
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    4. Pleasure_Paulie

      Pleasure_Paulie Member

      Location:
      Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise or maybe... unicorns!
      You are confusing yourself. MSC can be deprived from many types of DNA including cord blood and adipose which are all multipotent by default in that their potential to become certain types of cells is limited. Pluripotent is a type of MSC that can become all type of cells within the body and are traditionally what an embryonic stem cell is, however other types of cells can be "induced" to revert back to their pluripotent state.

      It basically goes: Totipotent ->Pluripotent->Multipotent->Oligopotent
      ->Unipotent
      If you have MSC, you will be receiving a multipotent cells.

      You are asking an impossible question. Nobody can tell you yes or no and if somebody does, it would have to be a very robust study to prove either way. I would say, probably. I had cord blood almost 2 years ago and so far I am fine.

      She had an autoimmune disease.

      There is not enough clinical data to say either way. There is a few of us here that have tried them and that is all the data we have to go by. A few stated their symptoms improved, a few like myself nothing was achieved.

      I will make one last point - If your tinnitus is the result of acoustic trauma in that you have physical damage to your cochlear the MSC you receive (multipotent) can not just grow into new hair cells so any benefit will be the result of some other underlying cause probably being resolved as a result.
       
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    5. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      another sean
      Studious

      another sean Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Los Angeles
      Tinnitus Since:
      2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Long duration of low audio
      So are there any known papers stating that Adipose Stem Cells has the risk of turning into tumors?
       
    6. 1000

      1000 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Trauma
      No improvement at all? Not even a small reduction on t? What you had Iv? How about LP injection? Where? Intratympanic?

      Mine was a noise trauma... And I have ear pain some fullness and burning that comes and goes. Not sure If I could be a good candidate for SC in Thailand and get improvements....
       
    7. Pleasure_Paulie

      Pleasure_Paulie Member

      Location:
      Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise or maybe... unicorns!
      That was be a big undertaking for such a clinical trial to exist and also be clinically reliable and credible, so not that I know of. Cancer is quite common so a causal link would require thousands of applicants. So no, and if it did it would mostly be antidotal and a scientific hypothesis.
       
    8. annV
      Fine

      annV Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2005
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      unknown - possibly hereditary
      It would be interesting if 100 TT members had stem cells.

      In house experiment!!
       
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    9. Pleasure_Paulie

      Pleasure_Paulie Member

      Location:
      Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise or maybe... unicorns!
      And expensive!!! Ha
       
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    10. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      another sean
      Studious

      another sean Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Los Angeles
      Tinnitus Since:
      2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Long duration of low audio
      But there are papers mentioning a cancer link for chord blood stem cells. So you are saying there is something different about Adipose Stem Cells thats its more difficult to find a similar link?
       
    11. Pleasure_Paulie

      Pleasure_Paulie Member

      Location:
      Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise or maybe... unicorns!
      Which papers? The difference between cord blood Msc is they are donated, adipose are your own fat.

      The paper I know of talks about a case of pluripotent embryonic causing cancer or believed to.
       
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    12. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      another sean
      Studious

      another sean Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Los Angeles
      Tinnitus Since:
      2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Long duration of low audio
      So you are saying its too complicated to figure out if adipose stem cells are linked to cancer and why there are no papers stating it either way but its easier to determine if pluripotent embryonic stem cells cause causer and why where are papers mentioning it? Im just trying to understand you statements in post #7 as to why there is not info of adipose causing tumors but there is on pluripotent embryonic stem cells.
       
    13. Samantha R

      Samantha R Member Benefactor Ambassador

      Location:
      Geelong Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      @1000
      No improvement whatsoever. However, I have pretty much habituated now... much cheaper. Lol.
      I received 150 million MSC's from umbilical cord tissue, half delivered by IV and the other half by lumbar puncture.
      Very very expensive gamble, that didn't pay off unfortunately.
      There is just no way of knowing if it will work or not, and I'd hate to advise either way.
      I wish you luck as I know how debilitating tinnitus is, especially when accompanied symptoms such as ear fullness.
      Feel free to ask any other questions, I'm happy to answer.
       
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    14. 1000

      1000 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Trauma
      Hi Samantha,
      This was done on what year? I was expecting to see an improvement as respond to your ears functions, at least the minimum.
      150millions MSCs seems like a low amount, even though they're very powerful. Now I'm not sure of trying it.
      Ear fullness as Ear pain are very very debilitating but more the pain, I'm searching to get the pain away.
       
    15. Pleasure_Paulie

      Pleasure_Paulie Member

      Location:
      Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise or maybe... unicorns!
      You're confusing stem cell potency and the DNA they are deprived from.

      Stem cell potency is their capability to become different types of cells. Pluripotent (usually embryonic) can pretty much become any type of cell in your body so thats potentially why in regards to the paper you're referring to it mutated and became cancer.

      Stem cell DNA type can be all types of things including umbilical cord, adipose, blood - I'm pretty sure stem cells can be derived from much of your tissue actually.

      Back to the potency part. If you receive cord or adipose in this case it will be "Multipotency" which means its capability will be far less as it can't turn into any type of cell in the body. Its a fine edge sword as technically pluripotent is what you would actually want to be injected into the cochlear but because of their potency state they could mutate into anything (thus maybe cancer occurred). Multipotent can become muscle tissue, cartilage etc and certainly reduce inflammation.

      I think in the future, they will be able to use pluripotent (induced) MSC that can be injected into the ear and become the exact type of cell you desire, so the technology has amazing potential. You can create almost anything from pluripotent stem cell including eyes, organs!

      Finally, I don't think anybody will be able to present to you a clinical study or paper that says "this will work 100% with 0% risk". A couple of us here decided to take the gamble, and because we understand how debilitating tinnitus is we wouldn't judge you if you decided the same!
       
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    16. Pleasure_Paulie

      Pleasure_Paulie Member

      Location:
      Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise or maybe... unicorns!
      That is actually quite a fair bit. Every clinic seems to have different recommendations on what they wish to inject (with the price getting higher the more they inject).
       
    17. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      another sean
      Studious

      another sean Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Los Angeles
      Tinnitus Since:
      2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Long duration of low audio
      I don't believe I was confusing anything since I am going off your statements unless your statements are confused. I was asking for clarification on your post #7 and why you say its too complicated for organizations to find out if adipose stem cells harvested from one self has the cancer risk or not, even though they have been able to determine that for pluripotent embryonic stem cells. And you repeatedly redirected the question and have told me multiple times I'm confused. I sense that you don't know the answer and thats totally OK. Thank you, though.
       
    18. 1000

      1000 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Trauma
      I thought they already had an inducer for MSCs....
       
    19. Samantha R

      Samantha R Member Benefactor Ambassador

      Location:
      Geelong Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      @1000
      Well, 150 million stem cells cost $25,000 USD.... so that had to be enough. I received them in January of 2017 so I should have had some kind of improvement already.
      It's actually better value for money than Stem Cells 21 I believe.
      Anyway, if I didn't get some kind of improvement after spending that money, I certainly didn't want to spend more.

      If your ear pain is your biggest concern, then maybe contact @DebInAustralia who had adipose stem cells (for another issue), but noticed improvement in her hyperacusis and reactive tinnitus.

      I think it really depends on a lot of things as @PleasurePaulie said. If there is some other underlying cause to your symptoms, then there is a chance that stem cells might help. I strongly believe that they won't repair cochlea hair cells though.
       
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    20. 1000

      1000 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Trauma
      Stem cells 21 are doing 120 MSCs for 22k.
      What clinic you got the treatment at?
       
    21. DebInAustralia
      Fine

      DebInAustralia Member Benefactor Advocate

      Location:
      Geelong, Victoria
      Tinnitus Since:
      30/12/13
      Dont let 'fear' hold you back from reclaiming your life with something that might help you live a better quality life.

      I dont think anyone can give any guarantees at this stage with regards to the safety of stems long term. From what I remember, the risk of cancer was much higher with the use of embryonic stems.

      I can reassure you that I have had cancer markers done for another reason recently, and they are all totally normal. ( I received adipose stems May 2017)

      There are conflicting reports of the role of antioxidants in the development of cancer in the literature. So, there are always risks with everything we try to throw at t and h. However, I guess you want to take a calculated risk when it comes to experimental medicine, which is what stem cell therapy still is. Very hard at this stage to ascertain the risk when there are limited/ no studies to put your mind at ease. All you really have to go by are ancedotal reports and commonsense.

      I received my adipose derived stems from here ..... >https://www.macquariestemcells.com/

      You could possibly email Dr Ralph Bright about your concerns and questions.

      For transparency, I will mention that I ended up with a heart arrythmia 2 days post the stems, and felt a bit weird (heart wise) on the table when injecting the lignocaine (probably contained adrenaline). However, I have a history of heart problems, so on reflection, I dont think this was necessarily a complication of the stems directly. Just my screwed up health at it again.

      I had spoken to one former patient of the clinic I attended who had a dramatic improvement in his tinnitus and hyperacusis as a result of receiving intrarticular adipose derived stems for his hip pain (his original intent was to avoid a hip replacement). He mentioned that he had a hearing loss, and that his h was such a problem that he used headphones everywhere he went. Months after the procedure, he no longer has h and barely hears his t. He has also successfully avoided surgery.

      I didnt have the stems for my tinnitus. I had severe joint pain at the time. I hoped my t and other health issues would be helped, but honestly didnt have high expectations that my tinnitus and hyperacusis would improve so significantly.

      I was habituating at the time of the stems, but I can say confidently that:

      One of my noises has completely vanished (a bothersome, vibrating engine noise that I would hear at night)
      The reactivity of my tinnitus has significantly improved; hence my hyperacusis
      My t has backed off, but as I said I was already habituating.
      My spikes have dramatically effed off. I would average a nasty spike every few months, which made habituating very difficult.
      Ive had further hearing tests that havent demonstrated an improvement in my hearing thresholds, so I tend to agree with Sam at this point, that stems havent repaired my cochlea (but I didnt expect it to).

      I think any doctor dabbling in medicine outside the box is going to attract media and medical watchdog attention. I dont know the particulars, but I wouldnt let that deter you from considering stems. The clinic I attended was involved in a case involving an elderly woman, whose demise came days after a stem cell procedure. The way the story was portrayed in the media made it seem it was stem cell related, but it was NOT.

      I spoke to Chloe Sohl a few times prior to my procedure. As Sam has mentioned, her hearing loss and t was due to an autoimmune condition of her ear, which responded beautifully to the adipose derived stems, with no complications. She sometimes hears her tinnitus, but is very mild and easily ignored. Her hearing in one ear was completely restored and the other ear improved significantly also. I agree that I think it depends on the underlying cause of your t and h as to whether stems will help you.

      At the end of the day, you wont know if they are going to help you unless you give it a try. As long as the risk for harm is minimal, what have you got to lose?

      I hope this helps
       
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    22. Samantha R

      Samantha R Member Benefactor Ambassador

      Location:
      Geelong Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      @1000
      That is much cheaper than when I enquired
      late 2016.
      From memory, that many MSCs was over $30,000 USD. Is the price you mention for umbilical cord MSCs or your own adipose derived stems? I believe they offer both, with your own stems being cheaper.
      I received treatment at Unique Access. They are based out of the World Medical Center in Bangkok.
       
    23. 1000

      1000 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Trauma
      Nevermind it's Unique Access...


      Human Umbilical Cord Mesenchymal
      StemCells (UCMSC) and Amniotic Fluid Stem Cells.
       
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    24. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      another sean
      Studious

      another sean Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Los Angeles
      Tinnitus Since:
      2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Long duration of low audio
      Thank you so much for giving more details about your experience. This is super helpful. Since I'm in the US I wouldn't be able to make it to that clinic but I'd like to find a clinic closer that offers a similar protocol. Can you tell me a bit more about yours? Was is strictly IV or did they do any injects locally? Do you know how many stems in total they gave you? How many session did you have? And did they include any other "Ingredients" in your IV aside from just stems?

      My fear of cancer comes from both my parents passing away from it. Although my fathers was caused by a CT scan and not from himself. So thats why it's a top concern of mine. I've seen what it does to people first hand, twice.
       
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    25. Pleasure_Paulie

      Pleasure_Paulie Member

      Location:
      Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise or maybe... unicorns!
      For it to be considered clinically relevant it would be a costly outlay and require many participants.

      There is a paper regarding a single case of embryonic stem cells causing cancer, again that’s not clinically relevant but still a scary possibility nonetheless.

      You’re asking questions nobody knows. You either take the risk or don’t, it’s really that simple. Nobody here can tell you if it will work or if you will have bad side effects. We can only tell you our story but your results may vary!
       
    26. Pleasure_Paulie

      Pleasure_Paulie Member

      Location:
      Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise or maybe... unicorns!
      They can induce MSC to a pluripotent form. Making the MSC becoming the type of cell you need it too is another level. Playing God isn’t easy!
       
    27. Pleasure_Paulie

      Pleasure_Paulie Member

      Location:
      Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise or maybe... unicorns!
      FYI. In my experience this is all negotiable:)
       
    28. DebInAustralia
      Fine

      DebInAustralia Member Benefactor Advocate

      Location:
      Geelong, Victoria
      Tinnitus Since:
      30/12/13

      @lymebite Where did you receive your stems ?

      As I said, the purpose of having stems was for joint pain. So, the majority of my stems were administered into my cervical facet joints and hip.

      The remainder of my stems were given IV.

      I did ask if they use growth factors/additives, to which they replied no because based on their results, they have found it to be of NO added value to the efficacy of the stems.

      In total, we harvested 1.74E+07 with a viability of 77.40%. I havent used all of these stems. The rest are in storage. Id have to contact the lab to ask them how many I was actually given as I cant remember now. (maybe 200m?) There is no way of predicting viability until harvest.

      I received msc svf adipose derived stems all in one day. They were uncultured. The benefit of this (I was told) was that the msc could differentiate into any cells they needed to. If the cells were cultured (which would mean you would need more than the one visit), you are limited to the type of cells harvested. Does that make sense?

      I can understand your fear of developing cancer from stems. To my knowledge, the only documented cases of cancer from stems are related to the administration of embryonic stems.

      If you have ongoing concerns, why not see an integrative dr about having some cancer blood markers done pre stems? But as you said, its unlikely to be a problem for you since your father's ca was due to radiation exposure.

      addit: The clinic I went to offer, as alternatives to adipose stems, bone marrow and haemopoietic stems.

      another addit: have you considered LDN- Low dose naltrexone for your h? Would be easier to access, and is very affordable, with very miniscule risks that seem transient like insomnia.
       
    29. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      another sean
      Studious

      another sean Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Los Angeles
      Tinnitus Since:
      2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Long duration of low audio
      Ive never heard of LDN- Low dose naltrexone for H. How does that work?
       

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