Should I Be Worried About Car Horns or Loud Motorbikes at This Stage?

Today I drove my moped without muffs for about 30 minutes, at first it wasn't loud for me, but at the end it was getting a little too much, it "felt" louder. After coming back to my room, my tinnitus was up a little but it might only have been my imagination...?

2 hours later I'm fine, hypercacusis is the same or better. Tinnitus is the same or better.There was no pain at all during the ride short of a little discomfort because of anxiety.

The sound on my bike varied between 60-85 DB, could have been peaks at louder, not sure.

Am I at risk for loud horns or large motorcycles to damage me? Or should I be fine and carry on ridding without muffs?
PS.A week ago I was at the stage of taking showers with plugs and typing on the keyboard was loud...what is going on ???

 

My advice is to continue with what you're doing and use earplugs etc whenever you feel the need. Just remember, over protecting your ears can make matters worse. I think you are doing well just give it time and try not to worry. Easier said than done but it's possible.
Good luck
Michael

 

I agree that overprotecting makes things worse, completely...I don't even like wearing muffs or plugs for 5 minutes...since I stopped it's improving really fast...

Question is...what is my risk? If I can handle 85 steady, will a 100db peak from Harley passing by be fine? A few seconds?

I know nobody knows...just trying to do what is best...

 

Great to know you're doing better.

As for your question I'm not really sure...

 

I doubt if anyone can really give you an answer to the questions you ask as there seems to be so much individual variation.

I agree entirely about avoiding overprotection and the converse, not using any ear protection. In situations where you are going to have prolonged or multiple exposures to loud sound ear protection is needed, but a single, short exposure to, say 100dB probably won't do any harm.

Best to try to live your life as 'normally' as possible, but just take care to protect that which is already vulnerable.

Fungus

 

@CDNThailand
I don't believe there is any risk to your hearing by a passing motorbike, ambulance or fire truck. As I mentioned in my post: Hyperacusis, As I see it - I suggest you read it again: https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/hyperacusis-as-i-see-it.19174/ last summer I went to a venue where music was playing, and stayed in that environment for 30 mins. My sound level meter registered 100 decibels and I had no problems. The next day my tinnitus was completely silent and I experienced no hyperacusis. I have variable tinnitus from: silent, mild, moderate and severe. This was a test and something I don't normally do or recommend anyone to try.
Michael

 

Thanks Michael,

But that is just in your case...I think I should rephrase my question, does going out and getting exposed by loud motorbike or horn have the possibility of permanently damaging you or simply create a set back?

That's what I'm trying to ask maybe?

 

No one knows for sure.

 

Yes.

If you developed T and H from an acoustic trauma your ears ARE more susceptible to damage or re-injury.

I'm a case in point, recovered about 85% from my H, started using earplugs in louder environments only and suddenly got way worse in March last year. I wasn't doing anything insane either, my noise input was purely everyday living, working, commuting, shopping, seeing family and friends, the odd restaurant and a comedy show in a small venue. Anything that was loud I used ear plugs for, musicians earplugs and the foam kind so good plugs too.

I of course got the unexpected noises like a dog barking or a car horn but nothing substantial yet I still worsened severely.

After that I wore earmuffs and/or plugs pretty much everywhere including driving to the local store or going for a night away with my girlfriend and I worsened again!

We're all different but don't buy into the"your not susceptible"bullcrap that gets thrown around here because the simple fact is you are and there's actually scientific proof to back it up unlike that Jastrebull nonsense.

A moped can be loud too, even when my H and T were super mild I wouldn't have dared ride one of them.

Be careful, use hearing protection when out and about in noisy places.

 

What scientific proof to back up what if I may ask?

 

You are correct CDN it is in my case. However, the ear, like the rest of the human body is quite resilient up to a point. You are right to be concerned about noise levels as I was 20 years ago when I first got tinnitus with excruciating hyperacusis. So, I understand where you are coming from. I don't believe you have anything to worry about. Carry on as you are doing and I believe your auditory system will gradually become more desensitized, which is what you want. In time, your concerns about noise levels will eventually become a distant memory and you'll look back and smile wondering what all the concern was about, trust me!

Michael

 

I'm referencing Libermanns theory on synaptopathy or hidden hearing loss causing T and H even with normal audiograms. They have proven that these nerves get damaged from noise exposure and will continue to degenerate long after the exposure has passed, how much one recovers is purely luck. Don't you think it's funny that people who come down with T and H recover from their H but not T only for their H to worsen from more noise along with their T?Damage has been done, more loud unnecessary noise is only going to damage them more.

 

Good luck making your pick between those two theories...

 

It's almost depressing, whatever you choose to do is "wrong and damaging" according to at least one of them.

 

You are right @maltese people will have to make their choice whatever they decide to do when around certain sounds. Tinnitus and hyperacusis is enough to contend with without becoming paranoid over sound. I just think it's unnecessary and not good for one's mental health. Be careful sure, but not overly obsessed with it as it can become another problem.
Michael

 

My t and h were not caused by single acoustic trauma, they were caused by years of loud mp3 music in ears and playing in bands in my 20s cumulative

 

Still acoustic trauma. It's either a single exposure to a very loud noise or cumulative exposure to moderately loud noise.

 

Just want to add some thoughts here.

You can ask these same questions over and over again across different forums and groups (and I know you have), and you'll still get contradictory answers because people will reply from their own experiences, which unfortunately vary so widely.

But I understand your frustration because I hate not knowing what to do. I hate uncertainty of any kind (hence why I have anxiety). So back in December, I scoured forums and groups to track the posting history of longtime members. I wanted to see people's first post about how bad their H was, and a last post about how they immensely improved, even if it took years for them to get to that point. I find it interesting that:
a) some never improve at all
b) some worsen
c) some improved only to post a few weeks/months/years later that they had a major setback.

Of course, there are people who got better and stayed that way but it's always the same few people regardless of the platform. I could tell from their usernames and/or their stories. But the people who never improved or got worse outnumber them.

Of course, you can argue that people who got better and never had a setback won't have a reason to post anymore. So, I've also sent private messages to already inactive members of the H groups on Facebook to ask how they're doing. I was hoping that their inactivity meant they got better. Turns out that was hardly the case. Although a few vastly improved to the point they live almost normal lives, many of them improved only slightly and they just learned how to rearrange their lives to cope with their impairment. And oh, whenever I get excited about someone's recovery, I always ask them the cause of their H. Most of the time, it's NOT noise-induced. It's either TMJD, SCDS, Meniere's, anxiety/stress, concussion, impacted teeth, ototoxic medication, etc. I hungered for success stories for noise-induced causes, but I rarely came across them.

What I did was by no means scientific but it's the closest to data gathering I got (and I suggest you do it too, if you doubt my "findings"), and I've always had trust in numbers. So knowing what I know, I decided to protect my ears and stay away from loud noises whenever I can. BUT I also know from personal experience that overprotection doesn't work for me because it turned me into an anxious and phonophobic basket case, so I lessened my earplug usage though I won't walk along a major road with busy traffic with no protection. It's been trial and error for me, but I prefer to err on the side of caution because the odds are not in my favor.

 

Interesting and very valid point, too bad you didn't save the data in excel sheet or something...

My understanding is that not protecting seems to be better, the whole audiolog industry backs it up also and from my personal experience not protecting is DRAMATICALLY improving me, daily...

As long as I know, one only has to avoid loud sounds, and that is a problem, I think our ears are weaker than normal ears...so the volumes are not the same...

 

Yeah I did it for myself so I didn't keep track on an Excel file. But I still have the FB messages, I can compile them and tally them, just shade out their names I guess. As for tracking old posts, I can do that again because they're all still there. It'll take a while but I think it would be worth it. I suggest you do it, too, if you have the time. Other people's stories -- both good and bad -- have helped me make what I hope are informed decisions about my ears.

I think being super paranoid doesn't help, so I decided to stay away (at least for now) from forums and groups that are too negative for me. I've also worn ear plugs less frequently lately and I noticed improvement particularly with my mental health. But I believe my ears are now more vulnerable before T and H, so I can't be as carefree as I want.

I think it's awesome that you are doing great. And to be honest, I want you to keep doing great because it gives me hope. The more positive stories I see involving noise-induced cases, the more motivated I am to not give up on living.

 

This is very depressive, going to be a low mood day :-(

 

Hey sorry, I didn't mean to be a downer. But at the same time, I'd rather hear a harsh truth that can save me, rather than a beautiful lie that can cause me more suffering later on.

Anyway, here are my other key takeaways to make my unscientific data gathering more balanced:

* I noticed that the people who experienced setbacks had previously improved to a point that they started living as if they never had H. If you can stay careful even with vast improvement, then you may be able to ward off a setback. And hey, some of them took years before they started posting again about worsening.

* The people who only slightly improved (according to their own assessment) and had to rearrange their lives didn't feel the need to post on support groups anymore. They found a different kind of peace in their new lives. I know this is not what you want to hear (and honestly, I didn't want to hear it either) but maybe there's something to be said about acceptance of a new normal. One woman had to give up an office job and now runs her own business from home, and it turns out that gave her more money and also more free time, plus it removed her from a noisy workplace environment.

 

I don't see how overprotecting is wrong or damaging. Sure, it may be unnecessary for most people and it may make things seem louder when you aren't exposed to moderately loud noises for long periods of time, but I do not see any pathological process for it making the condition permanently worse.

Additional loud noise exposure, on the other hand, can do more damage. The only question is how loud is too loud and are some people more susceptible than others.

Some of us err on the side of caution others not so much.

CDN asked for scientific proof, the thing is there isn't any to my knowledge. The only data I'm aware of regarding permissible exposure limits are the OSHA and NIOSH regulations. In my opinion these regulations don't hold much weight given that the data they used to make them were based on permanent threshold shifts in hearing. As we know now you can have significant hearing damage without a permanent threshold shift i.e. hidden hearing loss. In fact, many of us who suffer from tinnitus and hyperacusis have good audiograms, so no harm done right?

 

@Alue
I believe overprotecting the ears can be damaging psychologically and physically for some people with tinnitus, and especially if hyperacusis is present. One should try to prevent this happening for I see it too often in tinnitus forums, where some members are becoming paranoid over sound. I Thought I and others had put this debate to rest but it clearly hasn't.

Hyperacusis, As I See It.

Some members have asked for my opinion on hyperacusis as they are finding it increasingly difficult to live with. They want to know if there is a way of treating this condition so that their life can become a little easier? Or whether it can be completely cured? For a few it has become so distressing they have decided to only leave their homes when it’s absolutely necessary. This is because of the fear of making the symptoms worse, by subjecting their ears to the hustle and bustle of everyday road traffic noise and other environmental sounds that we are all familiar with.

Reading some of the posts in this forum, one can easily see that certain people daren’t leave their homes without first checking they have their earmuffs and an assortment of earplugs in various degrees of attenuation, in readiness for any potential environment that they happen to find themselves in. The cinema, nightclub, restaurant, or on public transport. If money is no object aspiring to custom made moulded earplugs for some is the way to go. It can bring the added assurance they will be getting the best hearing protection. Whether this is true or not doesn’t really matter because it’s what the person believes and this helps to give them that peace of mind which is something many of us strive for at one time or another.

The above may seem a little extreme until I tell you one member provoked a lot of discussion here, when he mentioned having the air bag in a car that he had just purchased disabled in case it was deployed in an accident. I suppose the thought of 170 decibels raining down on his auditory system and the possibility of his tinnitus and hyperacusis shooting through the roof was too much too bare and is more important than a potential life saving device. As strange as this might seem, others have discussed doing the same thing elsewhere on the Internet.

I am not an expert in this field but do have the experience of living with very severe hyperacusis that was brought on with the onset of my tinnitus twenty years ago due to loud noise exposure. It was so severe; conversation with someone at times caused immense pain. However, it was completely cured in two years with TRT and having counselling with a hearing therapist. I wore white noise generators for 10hrs a day and used a sound machine throughout the night until morning for sound enrichment. My tinnitus had reduced to a very low level.

Some people believe hyperacusis cannot be cured and if treatment such as TRT works then it merely suppresses the condition. In the event of future loud noise exposure it will return and the condition will be worse than before. I believe it's up to the individual to take care of their hearing and not subject themselves to loud noise exposure. However, accidents do happen as in my case. I have previously explained in this forum that my tinnitus increased to very severe levels in 2008 due to noise exposure so won’t go over it again. To my surprise the hyperacusis did not return and has remained the same till this day, completely silent.

This summer I went onto the Brighton Pier and into the arcade. The place was a hive of activity and many people were using the slot machines. Music was playing and this was mixed with loud laughter so everyone seemed to be having a good time. I had my sound level meter and also a sound App on my mobile phone. Just in case things got too uncomfortable I had my noise reducing earplugs with me that reduce sound levels by 18 decibels. This was a test and not something I normally do or recommend anyone else to try.

The sound level in that place remained constant at just over 100 decibels. My ears didn’t feel uncomfortable nor did I feel any pain. I stayed at the venue for 30 minutes and then left.

The next morning my tinnitus was silent and I experienced no symptoms of hyperacusis. I do not believe that it is a good idea for someone with tinnitus or hyperacusis (or both) to wear earplugs or noise-reducing earplugs with filters too often, because it’s possible for the auditory system to become hypersensitive. In some cases it could make matters worse and cause a condition called phonophobia. This is literally having a fear of sound.

I used to counsel someone that had phonophobia like symptoms although she wasn’t diagnosed. This person had hypercausis that gradually got worse and at every opportunity she kept away from sound. This got so bad going out the front door because of the noise was a problem. Her ears couldn’t tolerate the sound of the microwave, dishwasher or the washing machine. She even complained of the sound of rain falling on her conservatory roof that was made of glass. Fortunately she has improved.

There is much discussion on this in the medical field from experts saying that the overuse of hearing protection isn’t good and therefore discouraged as it will lower loudness threshold and I completely agree with this. I think if one isn’t careful they can become paranoid over sound making their hyperacusis and tinnitus worse and I don’t think it’s healthy.

I believe the answer is to seek proper treatment. If TRT is unavailable then start using a sound machine by the bedside at night for sound enrichment. This usually helps to desensitise the auditory system. Try going out for long walks and getting used to everyday sounds instead of keeping away from them by staying at home. I don’t normally recommend anyone to use white noise generators unless they are under the care of a hearing therapist. However, if your tinnitus is under control and you have habituated but experience hyperacusis, that some call: Reactive tinnitus. Then white noise generators could be the way to go. Two should be used to keep the auditory system in balance and set the volume level low, preferably below the tinnitus. This will help to desensitise the auditory system and treat the hypercusis.

Hearing protection is important and does have its place. If I am going to venues where I believe noise level could become loud then I have my earplugs with me. Night clubs, parties etc. I would always use them at the cinema although I haven’t been to one in years. Reading some of the posts on this forum people say those places can be very loud.

When I use my petrol lawn mower or electric power tools for those DIY jobs around the home, I always use my ear defenders. I want to live life and enjoy it. Not to be living in fear of hearing a fire truck or ambulance siren coming towards me and I have to panic and quickly insert earplugs or reach for earmuffs to protect my hearing. I just think this is overkill.

Michael

PS: There is a condition called: vestibular hyperacusis. This is where the sound can cause a person to fall, lose balance or experience dizziness, and will probably require more professional help.

 

I think that walking around traffic, putting your fingers in your ears is sufficient, because you can hear the sounds in advance, unless an ambulance happens to start the sirene as soon as you walk by it...

For that I would avoid being around emergency vehicles if possible, luckily none in Thailand so ok with that.

Im my case, the problem is that when I'm driving my moped, my hands are tied, so if loud motorbike passes me suddenly it's too late...

I think I could wear no protection on my bike when the traffic is minimal, early morning or so, that way I can hear problems from a distance.

And maybe wear protection on highway and in heavy traffic?

Would that be a compromise?

Could wearing plugs an hour a day increase sensitivity?

 

That's the problem too traffic noise is not at all the same in the big cities of Thailand where everyone is riding bikes and small cities in Europe where you mostly have small or normal cars driving at low speed...

If a 100 db motorbike it passing next to you every 30 seconds I think it can do damage. 100 db is only safe for 4 minutes in healthy ears, and I'd think this amount of time is lowered in case of previous damages

 

As I’ve previously mentioned, I used to have very severe hyperacusis to the point where conversation was often painful. Therefore, I understand the issues of traffic noise. The hyperacusis took two years to cure, using white noise generators as part of TRT. That was nearly twenty years ago. In 2008 my tinnitus increased due to noise trauma but my hyperacusis did not return. You need to give it more time @CDNThailand for your hyperacusis to cure and I believe it can. @VRZ78 has made some valid points, regarding the noise levels from motorbikes in Thailand and the noise levels in cites around the world, as they will be completely different.

Once your auditory system has healed sensitivity to sound won’t be so much of an issue. Instead of using earplugs that completely block-out outside sounds, I feel it would be much better to wear noise-reducing earplugs (that have filters) when you feel it’s appropriate. However, I advise you to be careful and not use earplugs too often as your goal, is for your auditory system to return to normal and this desensitisation will take time.

Michael

 

Over protecting incrrases the gain, makes the brain turn up the volume to try to hear better.

Research proves that, 5-7 db gain in 2 weeks

 

Can we have the link, please? Is the study done on people with healthy hearing or people with T and/or H? Are the results permanent and irreversible?

 

Reversible and people with healhy ears