NATO headed for the Ukraine

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by UserID, Sep 2, 2014.

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    1. UserID
      Lucky

      UserID Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Tampa, FL
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/01/1972
      Cause of Tinnitus:
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      Well, it's not yet been officially determined, but it does look like the conference in Wales coming up will end in a determination by NATO to send 4000 troops into Ukraine in order to stop Putin's insistence on taking back the entire Eastern bloc of European countries lost as a result of Russia's collapse a quarter of a century ago.

      What will this lead to? I have never had much faith in NATO forces doing the right thing, except that they arrive and drive around. It's a known fact that Russian troops are in Ukraine, although Putin denies these allegations, and they will be encountered. What that will lead to is anyone's guess.

      If Putin decides to try taking the Baltic states, he will have not only NATO, but our forces to deal with as we have promised to keep those countries free and democratic.

      Obviously, the state of Russia, according to Putin, declined too significantly after the wall was demolished and has not been able to rise from the dead. There is far too much black market activity and theft of resources to keep it afloat. So, he thinks by taking back the Eastern bloc, stealing the profits of the businesses built there, that he will resurrect Russia, it appears.

      What a mess.
      David
       
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    2. Hengist
      Blah

      Hengist Member

      Location:
      Croatia
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      8/7/2014
      I am all for action, Putin must be stopped from his reactionary, anti-russian, anti-gay backward cleptocratic style of leading russia. If the west can shake him away from power a right wing take over will happen and russia will rise again as something the west can work with.
       
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    3. UserID
      Lucky

      UserID Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Tampa, FL
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/01/1972
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Artillery
      There really is no feeling in the man for state's rights. The people of each separate nation should be allowed to determine their preference for govt. and enterprise, not might. But then, there has been no real understanding of America's vision, that "all men are created equal and are endowed with certain inalienable rights, and among these rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." When will these words sink into Putin's brain? They are as true for the American as they should be for all people.

      Nice to meet you Hengist. From Croatia, huh? Where I grew up as a boy, the county in which we lived was composed of a great many Croatians and Slavs, so I was introduced to their culture, i.e. their foods and friendliness. They are wonderful people, at least those that I met on my rounds as a pest control operator. Always willing to feed me, they were, and to treat me like family. I don't know your age, and I hope you are young enough not to have experienced the terrible history of that region. May the Lord keep you safe and out of harm's way.
      David
       
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    4. daedalus

      daedalus Member

      Location:
      Brussels
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2007
      Erm, Dave, do you have a source for that history of sending troops in Ukraine ? Part of the US and NATO is indeed stupid but not that stupid as to start the third worl war to defend the incompetent and corrupt leaders of a bankrupt state.

      Our diplomats are already tearing their hair out over this crisis and try to convince our dumb politicians not to worsen things.

      (Yeah, i know i shouldn't post in a political thread but you got me intrigued.
       
    5. jimH
      No Mood

      jimH Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
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      Those "vertically challenged" narcissistic types (Putin - Napoleon) are real troublemakers......:D

      I had a very funny girlfriend that referring to her experiences in dating really short guys, said "I won't date a guy any more if I can eat a sandwich off the top of his head."...:ROFL:
       
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    6. Hengist
      Blah

      Hengist Member

      Location:
      Croatia
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      8/7/2014
      Putin and Napoleon are about the same hight but I do not think that the root of the problem. The issue with thisr east European view of the world which is prevailing in Russia where debate (a foundation of democracy) is frowned upon and "unity" (singlemindednes and lack of choice and difference) is the greatest national ideal, and a big government which intrudes into market as much as it can so that relatives and friends and godfathers can put each other's incompetant hands onto positions of work and power they have no place to hold. When putin was asked about corruption he said there is no corruption in russia. So for him the way of his country's functioning is completely in accordance with his wordview, where it is normal that you should hire your completely incompetant nephew into an invented for him assistant position in some government agency that is only there to serve as recruiting and loyalty assuring system for members of the ruling mafia.

      If he is allowed to continue, the greatest by land nation on Earth, and Russian people will be ruined, he is already importing the neighbouring muslim workforce en-masse to replace the dwindling and emigrating russians, some are concerned about the racial profile of Europe and USA, the future of russia does not look bright at all. It looks like it will very soon have a majority of central-asian muslims under-20 population, and you know how well a nuclear power with a brewing internal conflict between right wing/putin reactionaries/jihadists is going to be for the rest of the world.

      Same as Yankee got screwed up by his meddling with third world backward extremists doing their dirty work for them in Afghanistan creating a whole variety of trouble for them later, so putin does not understand that ignoring the demographics problem and putting money into global show of wannabe superpower and taking the easy route of introducing the uneducated foreign cheap workforce in a country without any appreciation of such a move will be a disaster for them later on, because unlike with Yankee chessplay in the distant middle east they are bringing their problem home.
       
    7. UserID
      Lucky

      UserID Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Tampa, FL
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/01/1972
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Artillery
      Hey, D. I heard the report on the radio as I was driving home from work. A meeting in Wales, I believe she said, is on the horizon, which is expected to conclude with the sending of troops. I listen to WMNF out of Tampa, FL, and it could have been from any number of their newscasts that it aired. I'll look for a link.....I checked. Unfortunately, the radio station is blocked by this network.
       
    8. UserID
      Lucky

      UserID Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Tampa, FL
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/01/1972
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Artillery
      Thanks very much for your view of things, Hengist. An immense catastophe is brewing with the introduction of Muslims into Russia where there is a nuke stockpile, along with the corruption that saturates Putin's regime

      At the same time, I have watched televised videos of US men who travel to the Ukraine in search of wives. Prostitution, I understand, is a leading trade there.
       
    9. daedalus

      daedalus Member

      Location:
      Brussels
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2007
      Hi Dave,

      I guess the speaker got some thing a bit mixed up. There are talks to make a small (4000 men) NATO quick reaction force which could be ready in 24 hours. The actual quick reaction force is slower. But it is supposed to intervene in NATO territory only. Sending troops in Ukraine would be a casus belli. Even if there are probably mercenaries from both NATO countries and Russia it will stay limited.
       
    10. UserID
      Lucky

      UserID Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Tampa, FL
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/01/1972
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Artillery
      From this site https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/nato-headed-for-the-ukraine.5948/#post-62917 comes this, D:

      At their meeting this week in Wales, government heads of NATO member countries are expected to approve the creation of a special rapid response force of as many as 4,000 soldiers that could be deployed to any member state within two days. They are also expected to sanction the establishment of an ongoing troop presence in Poland and the Baltic states, as well as the buildup of equipment and arms stockpiles in Eastern Europe.
       
    11. Hengist
      Blah

      Hengist Member

      Location:
      Croatia
      Tinnitus Since:
      8/7/2014
      None of that is hawk talk, as I see it this is small scale warfare by proxy, I do not understand why people are afraid of this war, russia and putin are a ticking time-bomb and the sooner the west realizes that the better. The only thing holding this regime together is the money gained by trade, now that this trade is denied they will not have the money to buy off their lackeys inside russia or combat the opposition so easily. The west has to turn this on putin's head so he loses the support among ordinary Russians. Russia of course has vast resources compared to Ukraine and Ukraine without the support direct or indirect from the west will lose this war. Russia was bullying and trying to destroy Ukraininan national identity and territory for hundreds of years and now putin is trying to divide EU by offering chunks of Ukraine to Poland, Hungary and Romania. This DICKtator must be stopped before he returns Europe into a stage not seen since the 17th century.

      In eastern Europe there is a breaking down of society and morality so women see normal that they behave as cave women, offering their only practical asset, their body and company to those who have something to offer. They lack the cultural and cognitive experiance and power to organize themselves into something more functional and they need the help of developed societies to make that transition. Putin's reactionary ways seem more familiar and easier change (or lack of change) than becoming a modern, non-violent, non-primitive, progressive society. That is why many Ukraininans wanna join Russia. Cashing in on that easy path of be loyal to regime which owns the monopoly on Sibera's vast natural wealth is much more appealing that hard work on becoming a democratic modern nation.

      There is a large number of problems and democratic deficits inside USA and EU, I do not deny that, but at least in these countries you can assume that the institutions are doing the job they should, in theory be actually doing.
       
    12. UserID
      Lucky

      UserID Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Tampa, FL
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/01/1972
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Artillery
      Great stuff you write, Hengist. I didn't realize Putin was offering bits of the Ukraine to Poland, Hungary and Romania. How tempting is that notion to those leaders? Is that a sure way into the "hearts" of the Eastern bloc nations? How sad, that to this day, many years after the wall came down, people in those countries remain without familiarity with the way capitalism works, which must mean citizens are not teachable, they do not have the mind nor will for such thinking. For them, socialism is the prime experience, not entrepreneurialism which asks so much more from the individual, like education, long hours, competition and motivation.

      Yes, Putin needs to lose the support of the Russians. You think restrictions are enough to do that?
       
    13. Hengist
      Blah

      Hengist Member

      Location:
      Croatia
      Tinnitus Since:
      8/7/2014
      To Poland and Romania it is not but to Hungary it might be as their leaders are anti-west. The trading restrictions can have an opposite effect, that usually happens where there is an ideology behind it like in Cuba, Iran or Nazi Germany, but Putin does not have an ideology he is just a paternalistic-conservative dictator so I think that it might work with Russia as their country has a fairly large opposition which has an ideology (fascist and free market) and the regime support is based on financial interest rather than ideological unity.
       

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