Botox Injection Into Middle Ear Muscles Without Cutting the Eardrum? Possible?

Discussion in 'Support' started by mermaid, Apr 27, 2015.

    1. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      mermaid
      Irritated

      mermaid Member

      Location:
      Poland
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      loud noise/acoustic shock/barotrauma/tmj/unknown
      @Chelles - I'm thinking about it so strong and intensive, because maybe what we both have isn't middle ear myoclonus but palatal myoclonus, which is so subtle that almost impossible to be seen by the doctors but it causes the twitching of our eardrums. I wish it would be one of the palatal muscles which twitches cause they are simple to treat compared to middle ear muscles. One botox injection in the palate and the problem is resolved for minimally three months!
       
    2. Chelles
      Balanced

      Chelles Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2011
      @mermaid from my research palatal myoclonus is more common also if you research it (the ones I've found) are visible and it makes a clicking sound. That's very different from what I hear and feel.

      This is an example of palatal myoclonus



      Sent from my iPhone
       
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    3. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      mermaid
      Irritated

      mermaid Member

      Location:
      Poland
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      loud noise/acoustic shock/barotrauma/tmj/unknown
      @Chelles - yes, I know that we don't have the typical palatal myoclonus which produces a clicking sound while contracting rhythmically, but I'm wondering if the palatal myoclonus could be so subtle that no doctor can see the movement of palate but we sufferer can feel it in the area of our ears... You know what I mean - myoclonus isn't so strong, clicking and visible but gives us symptoms like fluttering or burning sensations in our ears. My objective tinnitus from the myoclonus is similar to the vibration sounds or to fly/mosquito buzzing/humming. It isn't the clicking sound definitely. But I have still some kind of feeling that the fluttering/burning pain has it source in the area of jaw, throat, palate, gum, muscle around the ear, face or temple muscle. I suppose it could be connected with tmj. Maybe it is a tmj dystonia (tmj myoclonus, I don't know how to call it professionally, whatever...). Maybe should we make an appointment to the good dentist who will give us botox injection into the chewing muscles...?
       
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    4. Chelles
      Balanced

      Chelles Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2011
      @mermaid my myoclonus sounds different I describe it like a hiccup feeling inside the ear canal it also sounds like a tympani drum or the sound of someone taping on a microphone very hard. The stapedial makes more of a clicking sound and is not as fast or loud.
       
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    5. Brianna
      No Mood

      Brianna Member Benefactor

      Location:
      US, NC (the progressive part :) )!
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2011
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      No clue - too many causes.
      Yust a warning about the "ability to do cochlear implants." When I see things like this, I will respond realistically every time. Implants have been under development for about 50 years. I watched the changes through medical journals and in person. I'd see folks with implants and ask them about their experience. Implants are still I'd say light years away from having any kind of normalcy to them.

      Information on the internet is contradictory re: cochlear implants (CIs) ("You'll be able to hear music!" Nope, not in my case and I'm going on two years. "They're great!" Tell that to the sore head where my magnet attaches and it's bad enough that I take breaks from wearing it. This means my tinnitus zooms up and I can't hear. Cochlear-owned websites are often deceitful. Any potentially negative comments can and will be (and in my case WAS) deleted. I worked in the computer field and know deletes when I see (or don't see) them.) It again deals with the brain and is very complicated. I'm in a place where I've given up going to an audiologist for an adjustment (it's called "mapping") and will deal with my iffy mistake when the implant no longer works - meaning I will likely opt to be deaf and my tinnitus will likely ring loudly, "... from sea to shining sea.") My ears are complicated due to my history but there's little that came out of the surgery that I expected. BUT the fact that truth is hidden means I may have a complicated history but the companies are still hiding things in many ways.

      Sorry, side-tracked from the thread. But related ... botox is toxic. I cannot fathom using it in any way shape or form. It may work (I have no idea) but I'd be very concerned about repercussions down the road. It's not to be taken lightly (and the OP is not, thank goodness).
       
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    6. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      mermaid
      Irritated

      mermaid Member

      Location:
      Poland
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      loud noise/acoustic shock/barotrauma/tmj/unknown
      @Brianna - I didn't mean cochlear implants are perfect and flawless, I had simply on my mind that nowadays the medical world is able to do such advanced surgeries as implanting the cochlear implants etc., but it isn't able to solve the problems with seemingly "silly" thing as middle ear myoclonus (At least in my case the doctors weren't able to help me, and I know several similar stories of the people from my country, they have the same bad experiences as me. It's so frustrating...).
       
    7. Brianna
      No Mood

      Brianna Member Benefactor

      Location:
      US, NC (the progressive part :) )!
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2011
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      No clue - too many causes.
      Understood. In many ways there are tremendous advances in science and they're still dealing with complex or even simple unknowns (simple to us and maybe a bad investment for various companies). One ostensibly simple issue for me was not being able to purchase an $85 piece that fit correctly in my ear. The technology is probably there but there aren't enough folks like me to make the investment worth it. Silly, for you and for me it isn't and reflects reality. When I read about botox injections anywhere, I don't see that as an advancement but rather some very messed up physicians and companies out there willing to do anything at their patient's risk. I understand it as I've watched desperation in close friends try anything.
       
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    8. PaulBe

      PaulBe Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Cairns
      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Probably sound, though never proven
      Conventional wisdom says no, but there's always exceptions somewhere. I couldn't really answer that question except to say that the TT is known to be under autonomic control (involuntary) so its likely another muscle group is creating the effect, but who knows really? If the claim has been made there must be a reason.
       
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    9. Ornitoring

      Ornitoring Member

      Location:
      Catalonia
      Tinnitus Since:
      2001
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic trauma for repitition

      I'm also be able to move my eardrum voluntary by Valsalva maneuver, I feel a crackle in my myoclonic ear when the air arrives there. Apart from I think I can move my TT.
       
    10. Ornitoring

      Ornitoring Member

      Location:
      Catalonia
      Tinnitus Since:
      2001
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic trauma for repitition
      How I can know if I have palatal myoclonus or stapedium myocloni. I haven't the palatal myocloni of this vídeo (youtubbe). I feel a mosquito=fly=butterfly.

      Which doctor know about it?

      thanks
       
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    11. PaulBe

      PaulBe Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Cairns
      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Probably sound, though never proven
      Ornitoring it may be your palatine muscles you are moving rather than your eardrum and the crackle (or in my case, glassy shatter as well as crackle) could be one of the other hyper-active muscles moving with it. I know some papers have implicated a rapidly spasming stapedius as causing the "buzzing insect" sound. Unfortunately the current gold standard for diagnosis is to peel back the eardrum and look. But its been done, and that's what was identified in some cases I know of.
       
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    12. PaulBe

      PaulBe Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Cairns
      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Probably sound, though never proven
      As to which doctor knows about it? Try Mars or Jupiter.
       
    13. Ornitoring

      Ornitoring Member

      Location:
      Catalonia
      Tinnitus Since:
      2001
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic trauma for repitition

      If I move the palatine muscles rather than my eardrum I undertand I need palatal botox. But who knows if my problem is this.

      Before you speak about topic botox for a stapedium myocloni... I have to look more information about it.

      My crackle (only if I do vansalva) I think is the membrane tympanic sound not for hyper-active muscles moving. I think (hypothesis)the membrane tympanic have lost the hardness (good subjection).

      Yes, I know about also about some papers have implicated a rapidly spasming stapedius as causing the "buzzing insect" sound.

      You said: Unfortunately the current gold standard for diagnosis is to peel back the eardrum and look. But its been done, and that's what was identified in some cases I know of.

      My question is: What the doctors can look if the problem (myocloni) only happen when I speak or entry noise in my ear...?? If Im sleeping in the operating room I haven't myocloni and I think they can't see the problem where is (
      palatal muscles, stapedium, TTM or hammer muscle..)
      ..but someetimes when I have had flutering in a few hours after I have had very small blood in my saliva...I think this blood comes from middle ear and travel through eustachian tube until palate. I think in my case doctors perhaps could locate the problem more easy.. looking blood in the muscles which is/are contracturated or whatever..

      Really seems impossible knows where is the problem..and for this reason what is the best solution...
       
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    14. Ornitoring

      Ornitoring Member

      Location:
      Catalonia
      Tinnitus Since:
      2001
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic trauma for repitition
      There are studies about middle ear...There are his names on the top. Perhaps they are the uniques doctors who know more about it.

      Mars or Jupiter sounds very disappointing... I need to be more optimist.

      Is difficult think that nobody can help your condition...
       
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    15. PaulBe

      PaulBe Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Cairns
      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Probably sound, though never proven
      Its a Chinese Hospital that did the Botox treatment using a tiny compress to apply it. They are calling success on it as a treatment. People write papers, others read them and get curious (although lots of Chinese papers get retracted due to bad science or outright fraud so don't get too excited yet) so its out there and I'm sure others are looking at it somewhere.
       
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    16. Ornitoring

      Ornitoring Member

      Location:
      Catalonia
      Tinnitus Since:
      2001
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic trauma for repitition

      Hi Paul can you put the link about this summary.... Thanks
       
    17. Ornitoring

      Ornitoring Member

      Location:
      Catalonia
      Tinnitus Since:
      2001
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic trauma for repitition
      https://mega.co.nz/#!LNQzBDiI!Ctb9_RX7WJWnf-7k3dmr3l_NfaIMdpG0ByZepE9YR4E :


      Palatal and stapedius myoclonus:

      Palatal myoclonus is characterized by involuntary palatal contractions, causing clicking tinnitus due to the action of soft palate muscles on the membranous Eustachian tuble. Similarly, stapedius myoclonus can cause clicking tinnitus due to the contractions of the stapedius muscle. There are two case reports, one for each type of myoclonus where the use of boox has beeen shown to be beneficial in relieving the patients symptoms (4). For palatal myoclonus, Botox was injected in the soft palate under EMG guidance (65), while for stapedius myoclonus, botox was placed trans-tympanically into the middle ear on a piece of gelfoam (66). In the latter case, the beneficial effects of botox lasted for four months.


      I'm looking for:

      (66) Liu HB, Fan JP, LIN SZ, Zhao SW, Lin Z. Botox transient treatment of tinnitus due to stapedius myoclonus: case report. Clin Neurol Neurosurg 2011;113:57-8

      PaulBe courtesy
       
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    18. Nucleo

      Nucleo Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      02/2011
      Everyone's ear drum will move if there is a positive pressure in the middle ear...
       
    19. Ornitoring

      Ornitoring Member

      Location:
      Catalonia
      Tinnitus Since:
      2001
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic trauma for repitition
      The study

      (66) Liu HB, Fan JP, LIN SZ, Zhao SW, Lin Z. Botox transient treatment of tinnitus due to stapedius myoclonus: case report. Clin Neurol Neurosurg 2011;113:57-8

       
    20. Ornitoring

      Ornitoring Member

      Location:
      Catalonia
      Tinnitus Since:
      2001
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic trauma for repitition
      We are a few people who have this problem or similar..

      Is not easy to find a good professional who really knows about this condition and what is the best for the suffer.

      Probably in the world exist a professional who knows what is the best solution for our ears/our person. I would like to know names of this professionals.

      My doctor is called Juan domenech oliva, he works in a Hospital Clínic in Barcelona. He diagnosticated me stapedium myocloni the first day, he is good. He said I should cut my stapedium muscle or tendon... but... is the best solution for me? I don't know... I would like a second opinion but is not easy find a good doctor who knows about it. Any idea? Thanks ;)
       
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    21. Glutenphobic

      Glutenphobic Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010
      Hey Chelles, I used to be Riley Girl but for some reason the website froze for months so now I came back with another name and it works fine! :) Is your tinnitus better yet? Mine has reduced by 1/2 with the xanax and I'm hoping it continues because 1/2 is still super loud and annoying. I just had blood work done and I'm very dehydrated so I will drink more and see if that helps.
       
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    22. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      mermaid
      Irritated

      mermaid Member

      Location:
      Poland
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      loud noise/acoustic shock/barotrauma/tmj/unknown
      Has someone of you healed this horrible condition? :(
       
    23. Ornitoring

      Ornitoring Member

      Location:
      Catalonia
      Tinnitus Since:
      2001
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic trauma for repitition
      Hi Mermaid,

      Me not... a lot of years with this...

      My doctor say probably I have stapediu myoclonus...perhaps... But I think have a problem with my Tensor tympatic because I feel my drum fly easy with the noise or when I speak (Hearing unbalanced pressure). Furthermore when I closed my ears in the same time (by force) I fell like my drum move a little (make small "noise")... I supouse the tensor timpanic not work good. Also when the middle ear happens I have a Eustachian tube inflamation "sounds like ssshhhhchhhhh". If I speak or scratch my head I feel this noise.

      Tensor tympanic and E tube goes together. And I think stapedium goes togheter palatal muscle.
      I think nerve trigeminal nerve goes tensor timpanic and facial nerve goes stapedium.
      I read the stapedium was relationated with the eyes but...in my experiences I feel my drum moving when I close (hard or by force) them.

      Sincerly I need to learn more about the middle ear anatomy and what's happen inside middle ear when it becames inflamated for understand my symtomps.

      My doctor say cut the stapedium... or both. Also say wait some years more (waiting new medical surgeries)

      Another doctors say:

      Ventilation tube and after is it necessary botox in E tube

      Its hard live with this.. nobody understand this... and seems not easy for doctors... Im afraid the operation but...

      I will put my clinical case in the profile in a few days.
       
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    24. japongus

      japongus Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1998
      Remarkable the paper @Ornitoring shared with us and an example of the peanuts we have to deal with. A low pitched rumble which I assume was continuous associated with the stapedius. But then there's also a membrane with a perforation and it doesn't specify if she still had the perforation at 4 months when it came back. It doesn't specify if the twitches of the facial muscle (provoking the stapes) were irregular and created their own extra layer of tinnitus. And for all it knows it might have been addressing the stapes or the stapedius. Or even the membrane perforation, which might have closed enough by the 8th month to stop provoking the stapedius into movement? And it doesn't specify if the rumble was subjective or objective, pity. Nor does it do an audiology test to see if she's ''recovered her hearing loss'' which would have been so helpful to define what kind of hearing loss is really happening.
       
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    25. japongus

      japongus Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1998
      Yikers, really? Since when is 30 to 70 thumps equal to 30 to 70 in Hz frequency? Am I missing something or has wikipedia gone nuts... plus the link to 4 is the weirdest most irrelevant link ever.




      I think we can all move muscles inside there to make a rumble with yawning. I read someone who had tenotomy comment on this, can't remember what she said but I'll update whenever I see the comment again.
       
    26. PaulBe

      PaulBe Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Cairns
      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Probably sound, though never proven
      Well I did say not to get too excited.
       
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    27. japongus

      japongus Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1998
      Yeah and 6 years later not a peep's followed any of its outrageous implications up. Stanley Fish would take the total piss out of our 'interpretive community' if he knew about us.
       
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    28. John M.

      John M. Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      Middle Ear Myoclonus since August 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Middle Ear Myoclonus
      I have been experiencing Middle Ear Myoclonus since late August. Last week, my ENT doc injected botox into my eardrum (4 perforations). The thumping has stopped and I am so grateful. Although this is not a long-term solution, it does provide temporary relief. It also gives one the chance to experience what it would mean to not have an operating tensor tympani or stapedius. As I understand it, their job is to protect the eardrum from loud sounds. Since the botox injection, I have had no discomfort with these two muscles deadened. If the MEM returns, I am definitely going to have surgery and have the muscles cut. I am a meditator and this thumping is not something I can live with. Happy to answer any questions anyone might have.
       
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    29. japongus

      japongus Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1998

      Did your MEM run off on its own independently of sound?

      What was your tinnitus like before and after the botox? Was it higher or lower pitch?

      Who was this ENT? Did he have prior experience with botox?

      Was your MEM a result of acoustic impact?

      If external sounds bothered you, what kind of sounds, what sensation did they create in your ear?

      Did the H cause referred pain elsewhere in the body? Did you have pain after sound or only with sound? If no sound sensitivity, did the myoclonus cause pain elsewhere or delayed pain?
       
    30. japongus

      japongus Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1998
      In addition to the unanswered query above, Did you feel the thumping, or merely hear it?

      Why is it people make claims of receiving botox and then don't return with details? It's becoming annoying.
       
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