Forget GABA for a While... Think Glutamate?!

[mock turtle]

like many here and there ive tried to moderate my tinnitus by effecting GABA in some way or another

as we all know gaba is responsible for calming down or inhibiting neural transmission

ive tried

gaba agonists...
think benzos like klonopin (clo0nazepam)

or adding directly to my brains supply of gaba...
taking GABA itself ( gamma amino buteric acid ) poor trnasmission thru blood brain barrier
picamillion (using a niacin engine to pull the gaba caboose thru the bbb
and even phenibut ( beta phenyl gamma amino buteric acid) which is an analogue of gaba that passes the bbb

all of the above attenuate my tinnitus to some extent...larger or small, but that old brain has a way of "compensating and saying hey you gonna give me free extra gaba or a look alike or gaba helper , well ill just lay back and produce less

funny how that works

so lately ive been trying an oposite approach

we know that glutamate increase the conductivity of these tinnitus activity brain cells and maybe even some cellular activity in the ear itself...and we know that aspartame (aspartic acid) is a look alike for glutamate at these "ligands (gates) where the brain signals are "controlled"

so heres my idea....heres what im doing

so why not try to dial back glutamate!

we have discussed this before, gabapetin, remacemide memantine are all pharma drugs that do this

but did you know that magnesium...which we have tried with litle or no effecct is also a glutamate antagonist.,..and what if we paired it with other over the ccounter substances.???

so i went looking for some and heres what i found

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7901032

Protective effects of a vitamin B12 analog, methylcobalamin, against glutamate cytotoxicity in cultured cortical neurons.

Akaike A, Tamura Y, Sato Y, Yokota T.
Source

Department of Neuropharmacology, Faculty of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences, Fukuyama University, Japan.
Abstract

The effects of methylcobalamin, a vitamin B12 analog, on glutamate-induced neurotoxicity were examined using cultured rat cortical neurons. Cell viability was markedly reduced by a brief exposure to glutamate followed by incubation with glutamate-free medium for 1 h. Glutamate cytotoxicity was prevented when the cultures were maintained in methylcobalamin-containing medium. Glutamate cytotoxicity was also prevented by chronic exposure to S-adenosylmethionine, which is formed in the metabolic pathway of methylcobalamin. Chronic exposure to methylcobalamin and S-adenosylmethionine also inhibited the cytotoxicity induced by N-methyl-D-aspartate or sodium nitroprusside that releases nitric oxide. In cultures maintained in a standard medium, glutamate cytotoxicity was not affected by adding methylcobalamin to the glutamate-containing medium. In contrast, acute exposure to MK-801, a NMDA receptor antagonist, prevented glutamate cytotoxicity. These results indicate that chronic exposure to methylcobalamin protects cortical neurons against NMDA receptor-mediated glutamate cytotoxicity.

PMID:​

7901032​

[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]​

---------------------------------------------------------​

kinda interesting dontchathink? im on day two of 1000 micrograms (mcg) of methylcobalamin and zinc 400mg...let you know whats up after a week or so...if nothing else this may be like NAC, something to take right away if exposed to ototoxic drugs are very loud noise​

 

[Petloy]

Interesting...so NAC can also be taken after having ototoxic drugs that spike our T?

 

[mock turtle]

i cant say for certain but it appears that the chemistry behind the damage that results from ototoxicity is oxidative stress which can be ameliorated by a variety of drug including NAC

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129149/

 

[Edmundphuss]

Sorry guys. New to this. What is NAC?

 

[Petloy]

Sorry guys. New to this. What is NAC?

NAC is N-Acetylcysteine, I take 600 mg 2x/day for 3 days after exposure to a fairly loud noise. This is the thread if you want to read about other posts regarding NAC
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/n-acetylcysteine.395/#post-2286

 

[mock turtle]

ok so its been about a week ......and........im.... doing.... better!

how much better? my t ranges from 3 to 9 ( 3 i could live with forever , easily ignorable when i keep myslef busiy and listen to lite music...9...9! well you know thats where all you can think about is awfull things and doing anything to make it stop

lately i havent had a 9 day and had two days of 4 or 5 in a row...ok i know this is not dramatic improvememnt but i can feel a difference

can i prove that the diatery changes im making contribute to the improvement...no i cant

but heres what im doing

im avoiding glutamate in all its forms...thats like hydrolyzed protein, modified food starch, soy related products, msg, (i avoid all forms of bullion) etc...you cant believe how many different ways processed food companies pump various forms of glutamate into the food...eat whole foods!

and

im taking "stuff" known to attenuate or antagonize the action of glutamate as a neurotransmitter

i think (feel...guess) its really important to take these things together, synergy

im taking methyl cobalamin 1000 mcg ,(micrograms) (the methyl form of vitamin b-12), magnesium, 400mg and eating turmeric (source of curcumin) as a seasoning in my food (the stuff that makes curry yellow!) and the other usual b vitamins, but expecially b-12 as methyl cobalamine and especially b6)

i am trying not to take mega doses of any of these substances, just bumping up against the upper range of what many qualified people say is the upper end of the normal range

please do your own research...im an idiot, and im not qualified to give medical advice, im just another guy lost in the tinnitus wilderness trying to find his way

just for fun web search glutamate antagonists, and glutamate excitotoxicity...you will be amazed

im further researching what ever i can do to stomp down hard on the neurotransmitter glutamate

glutamate in abundance causes excitotoxicity...well documented

best wishes
mock turtle

ps , yes in the past when i have a really bad day i still reach for either a my perscription benzo (klonopin) or any gaba agonists i can buy OTC

 

[erik]

Mock, good post. I have been doing most of what you are currently doing for a few weeks now and I have noticed a big difference in sound level also. I have a lot more reduced days now and even when not they are not nearly the level they were a few months ago. Some of this is because I am dealing with the T better on an emotional level, but other reasons I believe is because I am avoiding as much MSG, caffeine, artificial sugar as possible. It does take a couple of weeks to know what foods to avoid etc to try and keep to a minimum from the 40+ different MSG ingredients. A good rule of thumb is that if it is processed - it more than likely has some form of glutamate. This goes for things like soups, salad dressing, frozen dinners (even the so-called healthy ones) and almost all fast food. It is not easy to do, but can be done. Stores like Trader Joe's have been a great help and very few of their products or products they carry have MSG and artificial sugar.

I think I will work in the B-12, zinc and see if I can take it another notch down.

 

[Karl]

mt -
Perhaps an appropriate medicine can be found that inhibits neuron excitabilty. I think clonezepam calms things down; trouble is, it calms down the entire brain. Too bad there isn't something that can be administered directly to the single efferent neuron pathway that is causing this damned sound!

Have you ever considered hearing aids? I don't have them myself, but I've read they can really help.

 

[mock turtle]

erik

yes foods to avoid...including artificial sugar especialy aspartame and all the rest you mentioned too

yep lots of hidden stuff in salad dressings etc

karl,

good point, just calming down the NMDA connections that have to do with hearing and leaving the rest of the brain alone...i agree with you...a targeted approach

i think thats why there was so much interest in getting stuff right into the cochlea rather than swallowing a pill (AM 101) etc

i have not considered hearing aids yet because my loudest tinnitus sounds and most significant hearing loss is above 4000 hertz way above the normal day to day hearing sounds having to do with music and speech...and i have a phobia about amplifying sound into my ear even tho i know people who reported that hearing aids attenuated their tinnitus

hay, im so crazy about keeping amplified sound out of my ears that i listen to music on headphones with the speakers off my ears altogether, resting about an inch forward of the pinna (auricle)

but its not out of the question...a solution thats being held as a later ...if not last resort

best wishes
mt

 

[click]

I do that too MT. I've never been keen on headphones anyway & for the T sounds, when I need them, I hang earbuds behind my ears. I've ordered some of those flat ones (designed for runners?) recently because the ear buds move a lot and fall off - am planning on positioning them so that they're not directly over the middle of the ear - I just couldn't put anything inside the ear !

Glad the diet thing is working for you. The only thing that's made a difference in mine is avoiding tea. I've had one chinese restuarant meal since it started & I think the sauce had MSG in because my T spiked but it could have been a coincidence.

I don't really eat 'obviously' processed or tinned foods anyway but what about chocolate - should we avoid that? I suppose it is processed because we're not making it from scatch. Although we could say that about almost everything. Even though I cook from scratch - even the raw ingredients aren't straight from the farm & field?

Oh god - now I've started thinking about pesticides. They say even organic fruit & veg can have them because they're in the soil.

 

[Karl]

My hopes for a medicine are not very high. A medicine may need to be locally administered, calming down the exact nerve that has the feedback causing this condition. Otherwise, it would need to be medicine that only the nerves in question absorb. How can that be done? Any chemists out there?

I know that the idea of hearing aids is counterintuitive. My tinnitus is at 4kHz, and I know for a fact that I have hearing loss at 4KHz. Other than that particular frequency, my hearing is normal.

Too bad I can't build a device that I envision for helping my tinnitus. I envision a sound device that would be something like this: It would be like a hearing aid, but it would only produce the tinnitus frequency when it occurs in the sound that I hear. Basically, it would fill-in the gaps of the frequency that my bad ear is missing. I don't know if hearing aids can do something so specific as that. It would also need to have a phase delay, I think - perhaps, perhaps not.

I'm not aware that my ear is missing 4kHz, but I'm convinced the ommision of that frequency is taxing my audiotory system, causing an imbalance. As a result, the efferent nerve at 4KHz is sending a feedback signal to my ear. My mother has very bad hearing, uses a hearing aid and has no tinnitus. For some reason, I got unlucky.

 

[erik]

Karl, you and all the rest of us got unlucky. Unfortunately, when I was at the Tinnitus clinic in July we could not match my frequency. Since I never had any prior hearing test before I got T, I didn't have a baseline to go with. With my last audiogram, I have no hearing loss in the normal range to 8K. I could hear fine up to about 13k. I have always suspected that my T is a result of some higher frequency loss due to meds or loud sound exposure but since I have no baseline I cannot confirm that.

 

[mock turtle]

click
chocolate...ummmm, i love it, extra dark...but it doesnt love me...its an ear ringer for me, but occasionally i "sin" anyway

karl
my hopes for a drug are not high either...i envision a nanao device that repars and or replaces damaged hair cells and their stereo cillia...call me a dreamer

however, having said that, i sure would like to see an animal trial of a proton pump inhibitor administered directly to the cochlea

erik
that is so crazy to contemplate and there are so many people in your situation little if any hearing loss but significant tinnitus. and whoooaa then theres the opposite...my brother in law beats on his hearing...chain saws without protection, yikes, i lecture him but to no avail, and d@^()t if he doesnt have any tinnitus at all...none, he says.. and i know he has lost hearing.....go figure

makes me want to pull out, in frustration, what little hair i have left on my head

btw...hearing loss around 4000k...guess what! thats the area whee the cochlea makes the first turn (ya know its curled up like a snail shell) and i was told by an audiologist that its a common location for loud sounds to impart damage as the waves bang up against that first "wall" as they make the first turn

for those who want to play with that 4000k number, the highest note on a piano is around 4000 hertz

hey you all...hang in there
mt

 

[Karl]

... Unfortunately, when I was at the Tinnitus clinic in July we could not match my frequency. ... I could hear fine up to about 13k....

Erik -
What sound are you hearing then? Is it really, really high...higher than the audiogram equipment?

I met someone who says his tinnitus is as high as he's able to hear. He said that it's almost like he is hearing ambulances with sirens all the time.

My audiologist hooked me up to a test that automatically determined my tinnitus profile. I just sat their with plugs in each ear, with the input monitored by a computer program.

mt -
I'm back to re-reading your original post on this thread. Very interesting ideas. Today is a bad day for my "T" - I need an inhibitor. Does "Two Buck Chuck" qualify ? (Charles Shaw Merlot $2 sold at Trader Joe's. I love that wine!)

Yeah, 4KHz is very common. Statistically, 27% of people over age 64 have tinnitus. I got into that club a few years too early.

Your brother in law must be one of those people who will get hearing loss, but never tinnitus. That's like my 92 year old mother. When she removes her hearing aids she hears nothing.

 

[click]

I think mine is really high - the sound I hear. It's buzzing rather than a pure tone but it's really high & 'electrical'.

Karl - can you fill in the spreadsheet if you have a moment? I only have 12 people so far.. I need around 50 to collate any data.

http://www.netdoodles.co.uk/tinnitus.html

Don't worry if you don't want to - but please nag others to....

Now.. where is Louise...

 

[Markku]

I think mine is really high - the sound I hear. It's buzzing rather than a pure tone but it's really high & 'electrical'.

Karl - can you fill in the spreadsheet if you have a moment? I only have 12 people so far.. I need around 50 to collate any data.

http://www.netdoodles.co.uk/tinnitus.html

Don't worry if you don't want to - but please nag others to....

Now.. where is Louise...

I put a notice up on the site. Hope you'll get the 50 people...!

 

[mock turtle]

click

i hit the link but cant get past a comic stick figure typing furiously on a keyboard...what am i doing wrong?

 

[click]

oh dear... all I did was stick the google docs link inside an iframe on an html page..

thanks for letting me know MT - I better have a look

 

[click]

I put a notice up on the site. Hope you'll get the 50 people...!

Thank you Markku It may prove to be no use at all but if enough people fill it in then we can do one to use as a cross reference & look for a pattern...

 

[click]

click

i hit the link but cant get past a comic stick figure typing furiously on a keyboard...what am i doing wrong?

Hi MT

Could you try again please? I have tweaked it a bit

It's at:

http://www.netdoodles.co.uk/tinnitus.html

Thanks

Click

 

[erik]

Hi Karl, my is very high and electrical sounding also. I don't have a single tone, just high pitched buzzing

 

[mock turtle]

click..im trying but not getting through...hmmm what am i doing wrong
http://www.netdoodles.co.uk/tinnitus.html gives me a blank page

 

[click]

Hi Mock,

Haven't got a clue! It's definitely up & running (just checked) but every so often someone can't get to it.
On the net doodles site it's embedded into a normal html page but it's also still on Google Docs at:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgiT7syrbpMddDFDQ1hxbTEzejhVbkYwUzBwaEdLcHc#gid=0

but if it doesn't display for you on net doodles then it's unlikely to display in Google docs.

We only have 22 people answering so far - perhaps others are having problems getting to it.

ahh well

Any suggestions welcomed!

Click

 

[Petloy]

Click the netdoodles spreadsheet shows a different format than the docs.google? Docs.google has more columns to answer than the netspreadsheet.

 

[click]

Oh dear - does it? I'm fiddling around with nitrates here

They should be the same because the doodles one is just the google docs one embedded in an iframe... not sure how they can be different unless you have viewed before and you're viewing them in your computer's cache..

Have just checked and they have the same number of columns etc? with 'Andy' on the last one with no column heading (maybe that refers to nothing possibly having caused his T )

Try pressing F5 a number of times when viewing it please Peter - if you're on a windows PC??

let me know what happens please!

ta

Jane

 

[Petloy]

I clicked the link in Mock Turtles post the netspread the last column is the CONVECTOR allergy, while Doc.goolge is Andy with no heading.

 

[click]

is the convector column - 'Convector heaters - possible allergy' ? so it's missing columns 'o' onwards?

They still look exactly the same when i look... both ending with the untitled andy column

Are we using the same links?

http://www.netdoodles.co.uk/tinnitus.html

and

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgiT7syrbpMddDFDQ1hxbTEzejhVbkYwUzBwaEdLcHc

 

[Louise]

I think mine is really high - the sound I hear. It's buzzing rather than a pure tone but it's really high & 'electrical'.

Karl - can you fill in the spreadsheet if you have a moment? I only have 12 people so far.. I need around 50 to collate any data.

http://www.netdoodles.co.uk/tinnitus.html

Don't worry if you don't want to - but please nag others to....

Now.. where is Louise...

Aw Click, thanks x

 

[Louise]

My hopes for a medicine are not very high. A medicine may need to be locally administered, calming down the exact nerve that has the feedback causing this condition. Otherwise, it would need to be medicine that only the nerves in question absorb. How can that be done? Any chemists out there?

I know that the idea of hearing aids is counterintuitive. My tinnitus is at 4kHz, and I know for a fact that I have hearing loss at 4KHz. Other than that particular frequency, my hearing is normal.

Too bad I can't build a device that I envision for helping my tinnitus. I envision a sound device that would be something like this: It would be like a hearing aid, but it would only produce the tinnitus frequency when it occurs in the sound that I hear. Basically, it would fill-in the gaps of the frequency that my bad ear is missing. I don't know if hearing aids can do something so specific as that. It would also need to have a phase delay, I think - perhaps, perhaps not.

I'm not aware that my ear is missing 4kHz, but I'm convinced the ommision of that frequency is taxing my audiotory system, causing an imbalance. As a result, the efferent nerve at 4KHz is sending a feedback signal to my ear. My mother has very bad hearing, uses a hearing aid and has no tinnitus. For some reason, I got unlucky.

Hi Karl,

The Hearing Specialist I've been to a couple of times says that the aids are tuned in to your particular hearing loss. So they only amplify the exact frequencies where you have loss. They take quite some time to set up because of this. I'm seeing him again on Friday and so I'll post any good info I get.

 

[Karl]

Louise -
I had forgot that I wrote the following:

...Too bad I can't build a device that I envision for helping my tinnitus. I envision a sound device that would be something like this: It would be like a hearing aid...

I actually went ahead and put together such a device for listening to TV. See my post at https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/a-headphone-setup-for-listening-to-tv-and-music.720/#post-5102

I've been using my audio setup just a few days. It's sort of "Poor Man's Hearing Aid", for watching TV. Cost me $15 for audio cable, $70 for head phones, $64 for equalizer = $149 Total.

It definitely improves the clarity of the TV sound. However, I'm not quite sure if it is helping my tinnitus. In theory it should, but I can't sense a change yet.