HIFU (High-Intensity Focused Ultrasound) Surgery

Discussion in 'Research News' started by daedalus, Feb 21, 2012.

tinnitus forum
    1. daedalus

      daedalus Member

      Location:
      Brussels
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2007
      It will ready at worst next year. For a price. Since as far as i know it exists only one clinic experimenting this surgery i guess they will be clogged with demands. Also they treat neuropathic pain like phantom limb pain. At he same clinic. The machine used, the Exablate 4000, exist in only two examplaries.

      More information here: http://tinnitusresearch.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9
       
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    2. Markku
      Inspired

      Markku Director Staff Benefactor Hall of Fame Team Trobalt Team Tech Team Awareness Team Research

      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Syringing
      Only consultation over 3000€, the treatment another 25 000 - 34 000€?

      Compared to Caroverine (was it 40€ in India? ;)) this is extremely expensive, not many can afford that to be honest.

      Seems interesting nonetheless, I hadn't heard of this at all before.

       
    3. Markku
      Inspired

      Markku Director Staff Benefactor Hall of Fame Team Trobalt Team Tech Team Awareness Team Research

      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Syringing
      To be honest even though it's implied in the discussion that it carries very few risks, I think it sounds harsh to "destroy the right part of the thalamus".

      It's kind of irreversible...

      It'll be interesting to follow the progression of this possible treatment option anyway.
       
    4. mock turtle

      mock turtle Member

      Location:
      puget sound
      Tinnitus Since:
      07/26/1992...habituated after 2 years; 11/04/11 new outbreak
      id give up a lot to have it work

      id be devastated to give up a lot and have it not work

      i need more data
       
    5. jamie5136

      jamie5136 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      October 2012
      I would sell an organ to get this surgery. Been trying to contact them, but they don't chat back.... for 40k, I would think they would want to help. I read though that it might help fify percent of a person's tinnitus and it is still experimental, but sounds logical. Anybody have any news?
       
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    6. daedalus

      daedalus Member

      Location:
      Brussels
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2007
      From a French forum. They are still doing clinical trials and will begin to accept patients in 2013. The engineer contacted by phone said the price would be around 25 000 €.
       
    7. Meecat

      Meecat Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      08/2012
      How do they know what part of the thalamus to ablate? TCD theory by llinas and their research group is a proposed theory, it helps explain percept but not fully. I forgot the reason why. Still, sounds expensive but if it turns out to work I wouldn't mind having my thalamus ablated, if you know what I mean ;)
       
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    8. daedalus

      daedalus Member

      Location:
      Brussels
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2007
      I have recieved indirect news from the clinic in Switzerland. They have said they have cured hyperacusic patients. Also, apparenty, tinnitus patients have had an amelioration in two phases: a "quick" noticeable relief shortly after the surgery then a furter diminishing along the months. I may contact Pr Jeanmonod if someone is interested by more precise details. It would take some time.

      I don't know what kind of tinnitus they treated. I know some are more neurologically complex than others.

      Also, i have heard a clinic in France is going to experiment with the same procedures. If it succeeds, it could be covered by the French social security but for French citizens of course. So, it seems it is spreading.

      Meecat: If i recall well, they stimulated cortical areas one by one and observed the matching thalamic zones.
       
    9. Louise

      Louise Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Yorkshire, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      29/06/2012
      This sounds like the nearest to a 'cure' get. Bound to be side effects of losing some of the Thalamus. Better than having T though I would think.

      I may have to get French citizenship if this ends up on their Social Security.
       
    10. click
      Busy

      click Member Benefactor

      Location:
      West Cornwall, England, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/04/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Not sure
      I used to own a house in Normandy - perhaps now's the time to get another one. They're pretty cheap too!
       
    11. Louise

      Louise Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Yorkshire, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      29/06/2012
      Can I stay, long-term? :)
       
    12. click
      Busy

      click Member Benefactor

      Location:
      West Cornwall, England, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/04/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Not sure
      It's an idea eh? How about an open house for T sufferers...
       
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    13. Louise

      Louise Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Yorkshire, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      29/06/2012
      Yep. We would have to work there as well though to get citizenship. I wonder if Pr Jeanmonod would give a discount on the op for a group booking? :)
       
    14. dan
      Chatty

      dan Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2011
      I live in Canada, I think our public health insurance covers out of country surgery if its not available here - but I will have to ask my doctor about it to be sure.
      What about in the UK ?
       
    15. Louise

      Louise Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Yorkshire, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      29/06/2012
      Well, we have the NHS where treatment is free (because we pay a portion of our salaries into it) but I think its only free within the NHS so no out of country stuff.
       
    16. mock turtle

      mock turtle Member

      Location:
      puget sound
      Tinnitus Since:
      07/26/1992...habituated after 2 years; 11/04/11 new outbreak
      yikes imagine paying 34 000€ and for the procedure not to be a success...that would really hurt

      anyway, probably take a long time for the FDA here in the usa to approve it,

      i have distant relatives in france...third cousins but its unlikely they would adopt me ;)

      and the private insurance companies here...well gee whiz... never in my lifetime will those stingy bums ever approve the procedure for older people like me

      my best chance is that aliens in a UFO will land , take pity, and fix my broken ears...and we all know that aint gonna happen...ha....ha...ha...ha...ha

      hmmmm or maybe i can get ahold of a flask of the harvard stuff LY41175 that restored the hearing in those mice :wacky:
       
    17. Louise

      Louise Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Yorkshire, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      29/06/2012
      Yeah, how come mice and rats are getting their tinnitus cured left, right and centre in all these trials and we cant?!

      It might be time to start rekindling your relationship with those distant cousins....
       
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    18. Lesky

      Lesky Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/1997
      This could be it - hope to hear more soon from this project!
       
    19. Lesky

      Lesky Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/1997
      This seems like a revolution for so many disorders, why is it not pursued in the USA?

      Also, any idea how long surgery takes?

      I see its only possible to wear ear plugs, because the head is in that "thing". No room for head phones.

      For me personally, I would worry if the sound level of the MRI (120-140 dB) might do more damage to my auditory system than the treatment would cure!

      With 33 dB ear plugs still would be aprox 90 dB which could cause hearing loss in normal persons hearing if the surgery goes on for hours.
       
    20. joejunior

      joejunior Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2001
    21. joejunior

      joejunior Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2001
      Would like to know separately for tinnitus / hyperacusis, sample size.

      1. definition of success
      2. chance of success
      3. side effects. short term at least

      preferably from a statisically valid double blinded randomized trial etc with

      and verification of above
      etc ie not just anecdotal evidence, though its thats all thats availble i am all ears, so links would be good

      i dont see the hardware being limited to 2 machines at present an issue. it can be easily rolled out in quantity.

      sounds promising but hold your horses.

      question: why arent ata at least talking about this or helping out?
       
    22. Louise

      Louise Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Yorkshire, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      29/06/2012
      Probably because its French. There's something strange when France is involved (no offence) as I remember looking into the drug Tianeptine (a Glutamate antagonist) which is a French developed drug and finding that its not available in the UK or the US. I read it was some political economic thing.

      Anyway, the ATA have just put all their eggs in the Soundcure basket havent they?
       
    23. joejunior

      joejunior Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2001
      i despair - the ata seems to be useless at best.
       
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    24. Lesky

      Lesky Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/1997
      The producer of the Exablate 4000 is a company from Israel. The current trials are ongoing in switzerland, not france.
       
    25. joejunior

      joejunior Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2001
      Await further news.

      This is very promising .

      What it wont do is restore auditory function at the coclear level but would interesting what effect if any it has on audiograms.

      If the tinnitus and hyperacusis can be ameliorated then if you had hearing damage you would still have to be careful with sounds if your threshold for further damage was low. Thats something I think most people could accept and would be very happy with.

      As the root cause of dishythmia is auditory damage, ie hair cells, would be interesting to know if hair cells restoration reverersed the disrhythmia ie Tand H and led to more robust hearing. Hearing restoration is developing by leaps and bounds though we are still not at human trials yet with the exception of the Florida children trials which havent been reported on, at the lab there has been huge progess.

      Its great that they are working and and making so much progress on both tracks.
       
    26. carlover
      English

      carlover Member Benefactor

      Location:
      London
      Tinnitus Since:
      1986
      Hi all
      Lifted this from another forum,thoughts?Pete

      Anyone heard about this, its MRI guided ultrasound, that has been found apparently to be effective in tinnitus and hyperacusis and is being further trialed this year specifically for tinnitus. Initial results appear promising.

      It appears this treatment is a generic one for a range of disorders, affecting brain function, chronic pain etc etc. It has been apparently been initially assessed on tinnitus successfully but now its tinnitus's time to be more comprehensively evaualted in France possibly and Switzerland . Currently there are only two modified MRI machines in the world

      Its called surgery but its using MRI and Loreta EEG to locate the affected area of the brain and using non invasive ultrasound to ablate the source exactly by heat so its non invasive and can apparently be highly focussed to a few mm guided by MRI. It appeears to be a one off treatment that would take a few hours.

      This potential treatment doesnt seem to have gained much attention, but appears to be much more sophisticated than anything out there like VNS or TMS.

      http://www.european-hosp...asive_neurosurgery.html

      http://www.fondation-fon...1_for_fondamental_2.pdf

      PS this is not vagus nerve stimulation or rTMS. It has been based apparently on decades of work and an understanding of mechanisms of tinnitus at a cellular level, and pulling together a number of technologies.

      Tinnitus is postulated as a thalamocortical dysrhythmia, the result of a resonant interaction
      between thalamus and cortex, due to the generation of low threshold calcium spike bursts by thalamic cells. The presence of these bursts is directly related to thalamic cell hyperpolarization,brought about by either excess inhibition or disfacilitation. The root cause of tinnitus is the damage to the auditory system which leads to the dysrhythia.

      This solution appears to be aimed at the dysrhythmia.
       
    27. Louise

      Louise Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Yorkshire, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      29/06/2012
    28. Markku
      Inspired

      Markku Director Staff Benefactor Hall of Fame Team Trobalt Team Tech Team Awareness Team Research

      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Syringing
    29. Karl

      Karl Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Chicago
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2011
      carlover -
      Amazing! Only a few hours.

      It's almost like how they treat kidney stones, by focusing ultrasound to break them up.
       
    30. joejunior

      joejunior Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2001
      • Agree Agree x 1

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