It's Not Your Hair Cells! It's the Stereocicilia and Resulting Ion Balance!

[Ian Mac]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereocilia_(inner_ear)

Tinnitus just got a whole lot more complicated. I just realized I've spent days weeks months obsessing over an ignorant idea that my hair cells are damaged when in all likely hood that's not the case!!!

This is both a great realization, and a heartbreaking one. Heartbreaking due to the overwhelming ignorance of the word "tinnitus" and its pathologies.

 

[Aaron123]

If you have hearing loss, it is very likely that you have hair cell damage. Stereocilia are fundamental parts of hair cells and are what make "hair cells" look like hairs. So I am not sure what the insight is. It also doesn't appear that there is any research content here.

 

[VRZ78]

Stereocilia are part of hair cells, so technically it's hair cells...

 

[VRZ78]

Simple and guessed theory might be that too much sound pressure can change the default placement and position of the stereocilia which makes them bend when not stimulated and therefore transmit signal to the hair cell generate tinnitus

 

[Rasmus]

Simple and guessed theory might be that too much sound pressure can change the default placement and position of the stereocilia which makes them bend when not stimulated and therefore transmit signal to the hair cell generate tinnitus

well if this the case how do we fix something like that stem cells? I know you most likely cant answer this xD but i fell like i need to try anyway ;D

 

[Samir]

It's not my what?... It's the stereo what and balance what?... Sorry! I don't get it!

 

[Cameron C]

Simple and guessed theory might be that too much sound pressure can change the default placement and position of the stereocilia which makes them bend when not stimulated and therefore transmit signal to the hair cell generate tinnitus

This is just a thought, but if sound pressure is able to bend and move the default placement of the stereocilia. Couldnt we create a method to use sound pressure to redirect the stereocilia back into its default place?

 

[just1morething]

This is just a thought, but if sound pressure is able to bend and move the default placement of the stereocilia. Couldnt we create a method to use sound pressure to redirect the stereocilia back into its default place?

Wish it was that easy. I thought IT injections (AM-101 or OTO-311) would maybe work, but so far no good news there.

 

[Rasmus]

what is Ion Balance?

 

[zmogedra]

Just look at what a loud noise can do to your hair cells. I don't think that the damaged cells will generate any sound soon:/

 

[JurgenG]

Inner & outer, what is the difference?

 

[spingee]

Inner & outer, what is the difference?

Inner genarates elektricity which is send to brain, outer are stimulated with electricity from brain to amplify/filter sounds up to 70dB - they are needed for distinquish sounds from noise , when damaged no hearing aids can replace their function fully

 

[Ian Mac]

This is just a thought, but if sound pressure is able to bend and move the default placement of the stereocilia. Couldnt we create a method to use sound pressure to redirect the stereocilia back into its default place?

What if instead of sound pressure you substitute ion balance, an ion balance that is out of homeostasis would trigger tinnitus BUT it wouldn't mean permanent hair cell damage IN OTHER WORDS Tinnitus from poor ion balance causes a REVERSIBLE tinnitus.

 

[Ian Mac]

what is Ion Balance?

lol it's that noise you call tinnitus and yes it's REVERSIBLE / correctable. Probably through diet and sleep.

 

[Ian Mac]

View attachment 12242
Just look at what a loud noise can do to your hair cells. I don't think that the damaged cells will generate any sound soon:/

Are you sure that's from loud noises and not hydrops induced from poor ion balance?

 

[Ian Mac]

Wish it was that easy. I thought IT injections (AM-101 or OTO-311) would maybe work, but so far no good news there.

No matter how healthy the hair cells, they'll still send your brain a tinnitus signal if they are bathing in endolymph with a degenerated ion balance. You can shoot your hair cells with stem cell all day and not find relief!

 

[Ian Mac]

Restore the ion balance, reduce the tinnitus. It's all about water and salt to achieve balance.

 

[Ian Mac]

If you have hearing loss, it is very likely that you have hair cell damage. Stereocilia are fundamental parts of hair cells and are what make "hair cells" look like hairs. So I am not sure what the insight is. It also doesn't appear that there is any research content here.

The insight is that your hair cells might not be damaged, perhaps it's simply a degraded ion balance, at homeostasis your ion balance is actually upset causing a "jingling/ringing/beeping in your ears" some call this "tinnitus" and yes if this is the case then your "tinnitus" is REVERSIBLE. That would be the insight, do you see, how upset you must be to have thought it was loud music damaging your hair cells permanently when it was all the time reversible, however the more time spent in a high pressure hydropic ear due to poor ion balance will result in deafness overtime due to the irritation of the hair cells. Best to restore balance and stop stressing or you won't reverse your hydrops from poor ion balance and yes you will go very very def over a long time from the ion induced hydrops, which means bad Ear noises called tinnitus of course.

 

[Ian Mac]

Yes it is truely another world inside the ear, yes it's truly complex, yes it will baffle you, yes if we understand the ear we have truely entered into a new world of knowledge, like it will be bigger than Elvis..

 

[zmogedra]

@Ian Mac that is interesting if it is due to poor ion balance you should also hear in a distorted, because then a hair cell is moved by the sound pressure it opens it's channel for potassium ions to enter. Afterwards the potential differences becomes an electrical signal and it travels to the brain blah blah. But if there actually is an ion disbalance not only you should hear phantom sounds, but also the real sounds should sound funny/distorted.

 

[Rasmus]

Restore the ion balance, reduce the tinnitus. It's all about water and salt to achieve balance.

So you say we need to drink alot of water and then our T will go away xD?

 

[Samir]

This is just a thought, but if sound pressure is able to bend and move the default placement of the stereocilia. Couldnt we create a method to use sound pressure to redirect the stereocilia back into its default place?

Interesting idea! If positive pressure makes them bend down, we can use negative pressure to bend them back up. But yeah... I don't think that would work. Some of the hairs will be bent in one direction, others in another direction, and in different amount. It's too complex a problem. Unless you are able to find a very elaborate system for straightening them up mechanically, one single application of pressure won't fix them all.

By the way, you need a way to see the hairs. To get a feedback on your progress of what you're doing. You can't work in blind. There is currently no imaging technology that allows us to peek inside the cochlea and see the hairs visually.

But I like your out-of-box idea! We need that kind of non-conventional thinking to solve the biggest mysteries we know.

 

[Cameron C]

Interesting idea! If positive pressure makes them bend down, we can use negative pressure to bend them back up. But yeah... I don't think that would work. Some of the hairs will be bent in one direction, others in another direction, and in different amount. It's too complex a problem. Unless you are able to find a very elaborate system for straightening them up mechanically, one single application of pressure won't fix them all.

By the way, you need a way to see the hairs. To get a feedback on your progress of what you're doing. You can't work in blind. There is currently no imaging technology that allows us to peek inside the cochlea and see the hairs visually.

But I like your out-of-box idea! We need that kind of non-conventional thinking to solve the biggest mysteries we know.

Ok, so maybe we may not be able to move all the hairs back into there original placement due to the fact that they are damaged and things would be different afterwards. BUT, if we did manage to create a technology to give us a visual representation of what was going on, then couldnt the process still help lower T by giving it somewhat of the original structure before the damage?

 

[Samir]

I don't think that the damaged cells will generate any sound soon

Is this after sudden onset? How long post-exposure was the damaged image taken? If the onset is sudden, due to single incident, then immediate intervention might help save them. That's what Auris Medical is trying to do with AM-111. For preventing synaptopathy following exposure, I bet NT-3 would have a positive effect.

If it has progressed over a long time, then we need different approaches. Like activating dormant progenitor cells with molecules such as those that Frequency is planning on using. For preventing synaptopathy or regenerating synaptic processes NT-3 can be used. The window of opportunity is up to several years for NT-3 and nerve saving. This is coming straight from the work of Liberman.

But what I also would like to see is a development of a way to straighten up and repair the existing hair cell stereocilia. I haven't seen any research work like that.

 

[Samir]

Inner & outer, what is the difference?

You mean beyond the obvious fact that inner are located on the inner part and outer on the outer part of the cochlea?



The green are the inner hair cells. The red are the outer hair cells. Inner and outer refers to the apex, inward facing the apex, and outward facing away from the apex.

For functional description, have a look at this excellent site:

http://www.cochlea.eu/en/hair-cells

 

[zmogedra]

@Samir I don't freaking know But it looks like the bottom of the hair cell is very thin and I think they usually break at this spot (google "outer hair cell rootlet").

I just would be happy if there was a way to calm down the auditory system and lower the increased neurons spontaneous fire rate. I believe that is the root of ringing

 

[Samir]

Ok, so maybe we may not be able to move all the hairs back into there original placement due to the fact that they are damaged and things would be different afterwards. BUT, if we did manage to create a technology to give us a visual representation of what was going on, then couldnt the process still help lower T by giving it somewhat of the original structure before the damage?

Hell yeah! I imagine it would be something like tuning a radio! Some static is okay, as long as you can hear most of the signal.

Maybe if we push them all down, then lick them all back up? That ought to work! Just like we normally do when we comb our hair on top of our heads.

Seriously though, assuming the tinnitus is caused by bent stereocilia, this might work to some extent. But I wouldn't know how to do all that bending and straightening with a microscopic comb.

The fact that they are bent though, I suspect, indicates that they might have lost some structural integrity. It may not be like bending and straightening back up a paper clip!

It would probably be more like a fallen tree.

We would need some glue there!

All crazy ideas! Just brainstorming here!

As for imaging technology, there is already work being done on that. Specifically, both Stanford/Texas AMU and Harvard/MEEI have been working on µOCT based tool that will help visualize the inner cellular structures of the cochlea in situ. But it requires making a hole in the eardrum so it is "minimally invasive". But I'm sure other imaging technologies will catch up and allow for penetration and visualization of the cochlear inner structures in greater detail.

 

[Samir]

Restore the ion balance, reduce the tinnitus. It's all about water and salt to achieve balance.

Where are you picking this up from? Source? Have you done this study yourself or what?

Do you have Meniere's disease?

Can you please post a link to published research results?

But if there actually is an ion disbalance not only you should hear phantom sounds, but also the real sounds should sound funny

Source? I think it's interesting, but he doesn't present any evidence or research publications.

But it looks like the bottom of the hair cell is very thin and I think they usually break at this spot (google "outer hair cell rootlet").

I did, and it does. Have a look everyone:

It's just that when I look at "damaged" hair cells, they often look more like this:

These don't look like broken at the rootlet. We may need to define the words "damaged" and "broken". Just like with breaking a leg, there are different kinds of "broken" legs and to different degree. I see no reason why it would not be like that with hair cells as well. Maybe some are broken as in broken off at the rootlet, some are just bent at the rootlet, while still others are bent at the middle.

I just would be happy if there was a way to calm down the auditory system and lower the increased neurons spontaneous fire rate. I believe that is the root of ringing

Treating the symptom rather than the cause, i.e. "managing" a disease. I am too familiar with this. This is how western medicine works when the cause of a disease is unknown. At least in my mind, the right course of action is investigating and finding the root cause, fully understanding the problem, then devising a way or ways (if multiple) to treat it.

What makes you so sure it's the increased neural activity in the brain that causes tinnitus?

 

[zmogedra]

These don't look like broken at the rootlet.

Oh really? So why there are two hair cell rows missing on the left? yeah the damage should depend on the pressure, some of them look broken, some of them look just tangled.

And as for increased neural activity theory it is the most convincing to me, because damage hair cells should not transmit sound. I just still don't understand which part of the brain is mostly responsible for generating the sound. Whether it is parts like CN/DCN or just neural pathway.

 

[Rasmus]

I know this is a little ekstrem but what if you kill all you hair cell and then regenarate them all back with stem cells would that work ? then all the half broken ones would be gone but again that is maybe a little to riski