Music Theory Discussion

If anyone would like to discuss music theory or would like help with it, well now there’s a thread for it .

I’m aware this may not be a hot topic, but if you’re a musician and you’re struggling creatively or are not sure about the rules of harmony, then you can post your questions here.

 

I've wanted to write a song all my life. Literally since 98' when I got my first guitar. Then synthesizers. I struggled terrible to organize Melodys in my head. Just ended up recording hours of riffs. Even now with tinnitus, I'd still like to write a song. Especially since I can't listen to music for right now. Something in the style of Thom Yorkes solo songs.

Where does one begin when writing a song? And what are some methods to help create the melody. As you say, the rules of harmony.

 

That’s quite a broad question, another Sean, but I’ll try and help. In my opinion, for music to flow naturally, it has to be learnt like a language and this requires a lot of ear training. The first step I always advise is to attempt to work out simple melodies by ear. This could be theme tunes, nursery rhymes, basic riffs - whatever - but one has to go through this process to understand music on a functional level.

A good analogy of this is that when we talk we form sentences instinctively; we don’t struggle unless it’s a language we don’t know or barely understand. First and foremost, music has to be learned like we are communicating with someone, and there is a similar structure. Just like the written word has sentences, punctuation, paragraphs, etc, well so does music. When one learns to play without our thoughts getting in the way (just like language) well then you can truly express yourself. Ear training and working out songs by ear is paramount when it comes to taking ideas from your head and putting them straight into your fingers. This translation process becomes more instinctive and natural over time.

With that said, here’s some basic rules of harmony:

First of all learn your diatonic keys. Start with the major key (the backbone and DNA of all western music). To create the major key we need to understand some basic concepts of music, starting with the notes that exist. These are:

(A), (A#Bb), (B), (C), (C#Db), (D), (D#Eb), (E), (F), (F#Gb), (G), (G#Ab)

Notice there isn’t a (B#Cb) and there isn’t an (E#Fb). These can exist in certain keys, but the notes don’t physically exist on instruments. All the notes that are shared between brackets are called enharmonic equivalents and are literally the same note/sound. You may question why they have two names, but the reason is quite simple: it’s to make music easier to write down.

With the notes now known we can apply a formula. We will start with the major scale which is:

T T S T T T S (T = Tone S = Semitone)

You must first memorise and internalise this sequence. To create a key we must understand what tones and semitones are. A tone is an interval - or gap - of two notes. In other words, if you look at the notes above and start on A, a tone away from that would be B. A semitone away from A would be A# or Bb; both would be correct, although when writing diatonic keys, you should always pick the note that is the next letter in the alphabet.

So, if we follow the formula for the major scale, we should end up with these notes:


(I’ve inserted a picture of my original text as the alignment was lost after posting).

You should always start and end on the same note. Once you have these notes you can turn them into chords by following this sequence:

Major, Minor, Minor, Major, Major, Minor, Diminished.

This means the chords in the key of A are:

A major, B minor, C# minor, D major, E major, F# minor, and G# diminished.

Many songs follow the same progressions so it’s good to get familiar with some standards first. We write chord progressions down by labelling each those chords with a Roman numeral from I to VII.

One of the most common pop progressions is this:

I V VI IV

In the key of A the chords would be:

A major, E major, F# minor, D major

A ballad sequence made popular in the 50’s is this:

I VI IV V

Giving the chords:

A major, F# minor, D major, E major

Jazz commonly follows ideas around a II V I sequence.

The first thing you should do is put some chord progressions together yourself by choosing a key and using your ear to join chords together. Once you have done this you have to sing a melody over the top of the chords to create a harmonising theme. This is primarily what people follow when they hear a song as it’s the main melody. The chords are considered to be an accompaniment. There’s a lot more you can do from here to take your music to the next level including the use of extended chords, chromatic chords, borrowed chords/modal interchange, secondary dominant chords, altered chords, etc.

The use of rhythmic ideas is also crucial and is foundational to music. I can explain more of this at another point as I have to leave now and this post took forever to write . I have no idea what you know and what you don’t so I’ve started from the basics.

 

I forgot to tag you, @another sean.

 

abcdefg

 

You’ve learnt already

 

@Ed209 thank you for that incredible post. I will have to re-read it a few time to ingest it fully as I have several questions but want to read it again to make my question concise.

As for my background in music, I first played the clarinet. Got quite good and could read music easily. Then the guitar for the last 20 years. In the beginning I could read music for guitar strings but then was introduced to chords and they were a lot more fun and got lazy and just got used to tablature. I know the major guitar chords, the rest I just memorize finger positions but I am not sure what I am playing. I wanted to learn music theory but never got around to it as I enjoyed just learning and singing my favorite songs. When playing music, I zone out and all the problems of the world fade away. Just before getting tinnitus, I was learning the piano and was planning to buy a Cello.

Chord progression was something I came across often but never tacked it fully. Again, let me go over your post again and give it some more thought as I may answer some of my questions myself after a few more read throughs.

 

I'm in! I love playing my electric guitars and two years ago I learned the whole theory thing behind music, the diatonic scales, progressions etc. I basically learned everything with YouTube.

 

As much as I hate music theory and how confusing it can be, it is definitely something a musician should know. It will hold you back if you don’t put in the time to learn it as you progress. Many musicians I knew growing up hit a wall because of their refusal to learn it.

 

A good ear is the best asset a musician can have but a knowledge of harmony goes a very long way. At some point it’s essential if you want to write more meaningful complex arrangements.

 

Major - 9, #11 or 6(usually replaces the 7th)
Minor - 9 and 11. 6 would replace the 7th
Dominant - b9,9,#9,#11,b13 and 13

 

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here?

This doesn’t make sense to me.

 

How many of you play an instrument?

 

Whatever instrument you play, you have to live with it, live alongside it.
Okay it several times every day.
Ideally have one room in your house where your instruments are up on stands.
Never walk past them without picking them up and having a ‘tootle.’
Don’t keep your instruments in their cases.
The instrument needs to become an extension of your hand.
You can tell much about a musician just by the familiarity with which he picks it up and handles it.
The respect us there.
And the most crucial aspect of a musicians playing is his/her actual ‘Sound.’

I know this reads like ‘homespun twaddle’
but it happens to be the truth. IMHO.

 

This is true. Whatever you play has to ultimately become an extension of your being; this is a commonly held opinion in musical circles.

I believe the biggest asset a musician can have is a good ear and a good musical imagination. The ultimate goal is to be able to play what you hear in your head straight onto your instrument without any delay in the thought process. It’s also beneficial to absorb as many different styles of music as one can, as there’s something to be learned in the vast amount of styles that are out there. A limited view can make for a limited palette.

 

Not sure about this Ed?

“It’s also beneficial to absorb as many different styles of music as one can, as there’s something to be learned in the vast amount of styles that are out there.
A limited view can make for a limited palate.”

I met piano genius Teddy Wilson on stage at the Montreau Jazz Festival in Switzerland in 1973.
One of the Holy Trinity of jazz pianists:
Art Tatum - Oscar Peterson - Teddy Wilson.
He was MD of the brilliant Benny Goodman Qt.

Writing for the New York Times, he famously said

“I do believe that any youngster who is genuinely interested in music eventually has to leave, much of rock behind. I don't want to sound immodest, but what musicians like myself play is like Ph.D. music compared to the nursery‐school sounds of a lot of rock and roll. They've got to grow out of it.”

(Let’s face it - what’s Ringo Starr gonna teach
Buddy Rich for goodness sake.)

Ed - all of the above is just a personal view.
(.....er.....don’t ‘it me......I’m old....)

Dave x

 

That’s a hugely limiting point of view to have though. Classical licks are contextually nothing like jazz licks, and neither is Spanish flamenco or music from any other culture. There are many things to be learned from Indian ragas, or Bulgarian time signatures, to the clave rhythms of South American music and beyond. These are just some small examples.

I would say my taste is extremely eclectic. I like jazz, classical, movie scores, blues, fusion, rock, metal, funk, punk, hip hop, pop, folk, reggae, country, etc, etc. If I like something, I like it, regardless of style or genre. I have a very open mind and just love music and don’t really like pigeon holing stuff.

Buddy Rich is possibly my favourite drummer and when we were kids a friend and I used to study his work a lot along with guys like Gene Krupa and Tony Williams. I used to study a lot of Django Reinhardt’s playing around the same time as well as many many others. A stand out guy for me was Stevie Ray Vaughan; he was a phenomenal player. Today I have too many influences to mention and I’d be here all day if I tried! However, I stand by my comment that it’s better to listen to as much music as you can than have a limited view of what’s possible. Every style is unique and brings something new to the table, and if I only ever listened to one genre, I think I’d go crazy. I love diversity.

 

@Ed209
One small caveat here.
TeddyWilson was the finest small band swing / jazz pianist in the whole world - of all time.
When I met him and played with him I thought it best not to correct him. x

 

It doesn’t really matter who said it; music is totally subjective and everyone has different tastes. Classical musicians are notoriously anti-jazz, many don’t like the harmonies that are used and the fact that it is built around an improvisational mindset. However, that doesn’t mean they are right! I don’t agree with these opinions when I hear them. Some of the stuff I hear people say because they “belong” to a particular style, is complete nonsense, and yet I hear stuff like this all the time from all sides of the musical spectrum and it reeks of arrogance to me.

I met and had the chance to play with one of the best acoustic guitar players in the world about 8 years ago, Tommy Emmanuel. It blew me away how humble and down to earth, he was. He was one of the guys that restated what I’d already heard a million times (from other great musicians) and that was to absorb as much music as I could and to listen to styles that were vastly different from my own - as this encourages new ideas and development.

I get what Teddy was trying to say but I don’t agree with him. If you want to go straight to rock as an example then there are bands out there with great harmonic complexity and incredible technical skill. The idea that all rock is simple is absurd. Granted that most of it is in comparison to Jazz, but that’s not how I view music. Music to me is a great artform where utter beauty can be derived from the most simple of ideas if they are executed well, so there really can’t be any objective measure of what’s good or bad. It’s good if people like it.

 

Appreciating and studying all forms and genres of music is the opportunity, the privilege, the domain of everyone from the dilettante, the hobbyist, the enthusiast, right up to the highly skilled performer.
However, for somebody to make it in the jazz world they will obviously have to specialise wilth deep concentration on jazz.
It takes far more to become a Barney Kessell than it does to be a Paul McCartney.

 

You are looking at music entirely from a jazz perspective though. This thread is about music as a whole.

 

I thought I'd give this thread a bump in case anyone wants to discuss this topic.

 

I just read "Poética Musical, by Stravinsky". It's a series of lessons he gave while teaching at an US university. It was an interesting read, although I am sure I did not catch many of the nuances of his musical theories...

 

That sounds like the truth to me.

 

Do you have a recommended reading list about all that?

 

Not really. Over the years I’ve read many books as I’m predominantly self-taught, but I couldn’t really name anything specifically.

That post only covered the basics of a diatonic key and many publications cover this.