Pyridoxal Phosphate (Co-Enzyme of B6) and Tinnitus

[JasonP]

Okay, so I have a question. Below is a very simplified video of a GABA receptor.

As many of you know, the benzodiazapines (Xanax, Klonopin, etc.) works on the GABA-a receptor. It does not however increase the levels of GABA. It "enhances" the effect of GABA.

The receptor in this simplified video (and for our purposes of demonstration) shows two receptor points. One for GABA and one for Benzodiazipines. GABA is needed for the benzodiazapine to work. Without GABA, the benzo will not work to send negative chloride ions to the post synaptic cell. I don't want to get into complex details but these actions are supposed to "calm" the body down (in general terms).




From what I understand, continued use of benzodiazipines reduces the amount of GABA produced naturally by the body because of "homeostasis". At least that is what I have been told. Please correct me if I am wrong. I have also heard that increased benzo use can affect the glutamate system and increase glutamate can happen from benzo withdrawal and cause damage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excitotoxicity

GABA is produced by turning glutamate into GABA using pyridoxal phosphate (the active form of B6)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamate_decarboxylase

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyridoxal_phosphate

The benzo's stopped lowering my tinnitus after some time and I am still withdrawing. My question is, will taking a little extra vitamin B6 or pyridoxal phosphate increase GABA production? Of course, I would think too much B6 would be toxic so I am only talking about a small safe level WELL BELOW the maximum daily intake.

I don't think this will lower my T much if at all but was just curious. My guess is this would probably only help if I was deficient in B6 but I thought I would ask. I also believe that the reason benzo's can stop working for T is far more complex than just GABA related issues and I am under no belief that more GABA would solve T. What do you guys think?

@Cityjohn I know you are smart on these kinds of things, any thoughts?

 

[Cal18]

I can tell you're panicking a little because you're still in withdrawal, trust me I know the feeling. You might find this interesting. Also note that high dosing vitamin C should help protect against a glutamate storm but I'm not sure of how much would need to be taken.

https://riordanclinic.org/2014/03/s...awal-a-case-report-and-biochemical-rationale/

Also check this out:
http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=152076.0

 

[JasonP]

I can tell you're panicking a little because you're still in withdrawal, trust me I know the feeling. You might find this interesting. Also note that high dosing vitamin C should help protect against a glutamate storm but I'm not sure of how much would need to be taken.

https://riordanclinic.org/2014/03/s...awal-a-case-report-and-biochemical-rationale/

Also check this out:
http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=152076.0

I am not sure if I am in withdrawal or not. Hard to tell since I have had so many emotional swings in the past before klonopin. Interestingly, when I reduced the klonopin and got on Lamictal, I became much less anxious but energized. Right now I need the klonopin to help "relax" me and sometimes I need it to get rid of minor apathy. I will say though, something is up because I used to feel the klonopin's action more but lately more often that not, the klonopin is not having much of an effect on me. I think I know why but not 100 percent sure. The past few days I got in a mood where I wanted to figure out how to lower my tinnitus more consistently as I was having ups and downs with it. I might have found out why but again not sure on that either! I guess time will tell!

 

[JasonP]

Okay, so I have a question. Below is a very simplified video of a GABA receptor.

As many of you know, the benzodiazapines (Xanax, Klonopin, etc.) works on the GABA-a receptor. It does not however increase the levels of GABA. It "enhances" the effect of GABA.

The receptor in this simplified video (and for our purposes of demonstration) shows two receptor points. One for GABA and one for Benzodiazipines. GABA is needed for the benzodiazapine to work. Without GABA, the benzo will not work to send negative chloride ions to the post synaptic cell. I don't want to get into complex details but these actions are supposed to "calm" the body down (in general terms).




From what I understand, continued use of benzodiazipines reduces the amount of GABA produced naturally by the body because of "homeostasis". At least that is what I have been told. Please correct me if I am wrong. I have also heard that increased benzo use can affect the glutamate system and increase glutamate can happen from benzo withdrawal and cause damage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excitotoxicity

GABA is produced by turning glutamate into GABA using pyridoxal phosphate (the active form of B6)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamate_decarboxylase

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyridoxal_phosphate

The benzo's stopped lowering my tinnitus after some time and I am still withdrawing. My question is, will taking a little extra vitamin B6 or pyridoxal phosphate increase GABA production? Of course, I would think too much B6 would be toxic so I am only talking about a small safe level WELL BELOW the maximum daily intake.

I don't think this will lower my T much if at all but was just curious. My guess is this would probably only help if I was deficient in B6 but I thought I would ask. I also believe that the reason benzo's can stop working for T is far more complex than just GABA related issues and I am under no belief that more GABA would solve T. What do you guys think?

@Cityjohn I know you are smart on these kinds of things, any thoughts?

Actually, I should have watched the video more carefully. The video shows that a benzo can activate the receptor without GABA but according to Wikipedia:

"Benzodiazepines work by increasing the efficiency of a natural brain chemical, GABA, to decrease the excitability of neurons. This reduces the communication between neurons and, therefore, has a calming effect on many of the functions of the brain."

So the way I understood it was that GABA was needed for a benzo to allow the negative chloride atoms to enter the post synaptic cell. I'm not sure if the video is right or not but regardless when GABA and a benzo is binding to the receptor it produces a greater effect.

 

[Florida John]

Actually, I should have watched the video more carefully. The video shows that a benzo can activate the receptor without GABA but according to Wikipedia:

"Benzodiazepines work by increasing the efficiency of a natural brain chemical, GABA, to decrease the excitability of neurons. This reduces the communication between neurons and, therefore, has a calming effect on many of the functions of the brain."

So the way I understood it was that GABA was needed for a benzo to allow the negative chloride atoms to enter the post synaptic cell. I'm not sure if the video is right or not but regardless when GABA and a benzo is binding to the receptor it produces a greater effect.

Have you tried the b6, if so any results yet?

 

[JasonP]

Not separately. I took a multivitamin that has 100% of the recommended daily value of B6 but so far I have just felt even more energetic and have had trouble sleeping. That could be due to other vitamins, me sleeping less, or something else. It's hard trying to figure this stuff out when I have problems with mood stabilization and also am taking different medications.

 

[JasonP]

I can tell you're panicking a little because you're still in withdrawal, trust me I know the feeling. You might find this interesting. Also note that high dosing vitamin C should help protect against a glutamate storm but I'm not sure of how much would need to be taken.

https://riordanclinic.org/2014/03/s...awal-a-case-report-and-biochemical-rationale/

Also check this out:
http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=152076.0

Hey, have you ever taken large doses of Vitamin C? If so, did it calm you down? I really could use something to just "relax" me. I am not anxious, but I am having problems with sleep and focused on negative thoughts too much this past week. It would be nice if I took something that kind of just chilled me out. I did take Lithium orotate which seemed to help a little but I think I might benefit from something different or in addition to it.

 

[Cal18]

@JasonP Yes, I have been taking 1000mg of Vitamin C in the mornings. The one I use is Lypo-Spheric Vitamin C. For the negative thoughts, you might want to try some inositol. I have seen it used in withdrawal and also in conjunction with SSRIs. The vitamin C is very safe. So is the inositol but you should try it at a low dose for a couple days. If you don't feel much, you can try moving to 500mg. I was taking it regularly and it helped with mood but I could only take it a couple days per week as it made me very talkative if I took it consecutively (but I was in a great mood).

 

[JasonP]

@JasonP Yes, I have been taking 1000mg of Vitamin C in the mornings. The one I use is Lypo-Spheric Vitamin C. For the negative thoughts, you might want to try some inositol. I have seen it used in withdrawal and also in conjunction with SSRIs. The vitamin C is very safe. So is the inositol but you should try it at a low dose for a couple days. If you don't feel much, you can try moving to 500mg. I was taking it regularly and it helped with mood but I could only take it a couple days per week as it made me very talkative if I took it consecutively (but I was in a great mood).

Thanks, that might help me a lot! Does it give you a relaxed feeling like benzos?

 

[Cal18]

@JasonP I wouldn't say it was entirely relaxing but it gave me a more positive and motivated mood without an artificial "drugged" feeling - the Inositol that is.

 

[JasonP]

Have you tried the b6, if so any results yet?

Sorry, forgot to quote you to answer your question. My answer is right below your question.

I can tell you're panicking a little because you're still in withdrawal, trust me I know the feeling. You might find this interesting. Also note that high dosing vitamin C should help protect against a glutamate storm but I'm not sure of how much would need to be taken.

https://riordanclinic.org/2014/03/s...awal-a-case-report-and-biochemical-rationale/

Also check this out:
http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=152076.0

I think Vitamin C could certainly help. One thing though that has been calming me down these past 2 days is Neurontin (Gabapentin). I was having classic withdrawal symptoms and this medication seemed to really help. I have heard of other people using it for benzo withdrawal and it seemed to help some of them. Part of this could be due to me having somewhat of a "bipolar 2" condition or "cyclothymia", I am not sure what I have. Thanks for all your help!

 

[Anima]

Jason, I would very much like your opinion on this suplement's formula: https://www.antiaging-systems.com/product/463-relax-pro-gaba-gabob
Do you think it could be helpful for tinnitus? In Spain it has another name but the formula is the same. I was taking it for a while and only noticed that my mood was better, but I'm not quite sure about being helpful for tinnitus because of having magnesium glutamate as part of the formula. It is supposed to be calming even though it's a magnesium salt from glutamic acid. All the formula is supposed to be gabanergic, but I'm not quite sure about magnesium glutamate. What do you think? I would much appreciate your comments on this matter.
Thank you.

 

[Anima]

Jason, please ¿any coment about my previous post? Thank you.

 

[JasonP]

Jason, I would very much like your opinion on this suplement's formula: https://www.antiaging-systems.com/product/463-relax-pro-gaba-gabob
Do you think it could be helpful for tinnitus? In Spain it has another name but the formula is the same. I was taking it for a while and only noticed that my mood was better, but I'm not quite sure about being helpful for tinnitus because of having magnesium glutamate as part of the formula. It is supposed to be calming even though it's a magnesium salt from glutamic acid. All the formula is supposed to be gabanergic, but I'm not quite sure about magnesium glutamate. What do you think? I would much appreciate your comments on this matter.
Thank you.

Jason, please ¿any coment about my previous post? Thank you.

Hey in the future just quote me so I can get an alert. After further thinking I'm not sure that supplement will work. I can see it helping to calm. It's so hard to figure out what will lower people's tinnitus because some can have different solutions. I'd say if you haven't tried it, talk to your doctor about a small amount of Klonopin or Xanax to take in emergency situations. Don't take too long or your body will probably adapt to it and withdrawal can be absolute hell. It can also stop working to lower your T (if it does so in the beginning). That's what happened to me. I've been trying to get off for YEARS now and I only may have finally found a way off just this past week. I'm at the lowest dose I have been since 2010. Keep in mind though, I tried getting off it over 4 years ago and I was only on a small dose. If I didn't have T I could have done it but with T and bipolar II it was awful. Right now I am taking Lamictal and it helps with my depression a lot. I have started more now trying to habitutate than to get rid of the T.
If you have depression look into natural supplements first such as fish oil. If you have anxiety, maybe try something like natural supplement combo such as combing Passion Flower with Valerian Root. (Its important not to take that long term though, only once in a while).

If you have panic attacks or breakdowns, don't worry, they are only temporary and sometimes part of the habituation process. I had some in the past 4 years but very rare this year and have not had one in a long time. I am doing so much better at habituating now because I am taking less Klonopin which acts as a CNS depressant. I'll probably have a depression episode again sometimes, but hopefully it will be less intense and less longer lasting as these past episodes have been in the last several months

 

[Anima]

Hey in the future just quote me so I can get an alert. After further thinking I'm not sure that supplement will work. I can see it helping to calm. It's so hard to figure out what will lower people's tinnitus because some can have different solutions. I'd say if you haven't tried it, talk to your doctor about a small amount of Klonopin or Xanax to take in emergency situations. Don't take too long or your body will probably adapt to it and withdrawal can be absolute hell. It can also stop working to lower your T (if it does so in the beginning). That's what happened to me. I've been trying to get off for YEARS now and I only may have finally found a way off just this past week. I'm at the lowest dose I have been since 2010. Keep in mind though, I tried getting off it over 4 years ago and I was only on a small dose. If I didn't have T I could have done it but with T and bipolar II it was awful. Right now I am taking Lamictal and it helps with my depression a lot. I have started more now trying to habitutate than to get rid of the T.
If you have depression look into natural supplements first such as fish oil. If you have anxiety, maybe try something like natural supplement combo such as combing Passion Flower with Valerian Root. (Its important not to take that long term though, only once in a while).

If you have panic attacks or breakdowns, don't worry, they are only temporary and sometimes part of the habituation process. I had some in the past 4 years but very rare this year and have not had one in a long time. I am doing so much better at habituating now because I am taking less Klonopin which acts as a CNS depressant. I'll probably have a depression episode again sometimes, but hopefully it will be less intense and less longer lasting as these past episodes have been in the last several months

Hi, Jason! I will quote you next time, I'm new to the forum and I don't still quite know how it works, sorry.

Thank you for all the advice, at the moment I'm only on 2.5 mg Valium and 0.50 mg Lorazepan for sleep and I'm even trying to reduce it till I'm completely off them. I'm tapering very slowly because my tinnitus is much worst since I started the process, too quickly, 3 weeks ago.

I don't know what I'll do in the future, I've to find a psychiatrist with experience concerning tinnitus and try to get a full treatment to cop better with this horrid noise. I don't trust my ENT anymore, he, and his colleagues, are useless referring to tinnitus. At the moment, I'm only seeing him to get some tests done to find out which are my options in view to get a middle ear implant ( http://www.cochlear.com/wps/wcm/connect/au/home/discover/baha-bone-conduction-implants ), it all depends on my cochlea, that's what all the tests are done for; for the rest, I think a psychiatrist is a much better option for controlling a certain type of medications and that might include AD and Benzos too, just in case they were a solution to achieve an amelioration of my current situation. I don't want to discard anything that could give me a better life in the next future, after all I'm already 70.

I asked my GP for Lamictal and he refused to prescribe it due my age and side effects. He might be right, my age and bad gastritis are sometimes a problem with medications. I would hate to get worst.

I haven't panic attacks now, it's just that my tinnitus is really loud and multitone in both ears, and mainly in my left one. It spikes badly for hours, in the afternoon/evening generally, and that makes me feel I want to die because I can't hardly bear being with such an amount of noise in my head. Once the spike subsides, and the noise is less intrusive, my mood changes for good and I try to go on with my "life". I try not to think much about the future, I know things can get better, that's to be positive, but I also know that they can get worst, and that's to be realistic. So I try not to lucubrate about what's out of my control, that's how I evoid panic attacks .

I'm glad that you are doing better and I wish you a full recovery very soon.

Once more, my friend, thank you very much for your priceless help.

 

[JasonP]

Hi, Jason! I will quote you next time, I'm new to the forum and I don't still quite know how it works, sorry.

Thank you for all the advice, at the moment I'm only on 2.5 mg Valium and 0.50 mg Lorazepan for sleep and I'm even trying to reduce it till I'm completely off them. I'm tapering very slowly because my tinnitus is much worst since I started the process, too quickly, 3 weeks ago.

I don't know what I'll do in the future, I've to find a psychiatrist with experience concerning tinnitus and try to get a full treatment to cop better with this horrid noise. I don't trust my ENT anymore, he, and his colleagues, are useless referring to tinnitus. At the moment, I'm only seeing him to get some tests done to find out which are my options in view to get a middle ear implant ( http://www.cochlear.com/wps/wcm/connect/au/home/discover/baha-bone-conduction-implants ), it all depends on my cochlea, that's what all the tests are done for; for the rest, I think a psychiatrist is a much better option for controlling a certain type of medications and that might include AD and Benzos too, just in case they were a solution to achieve an amelioration of my current situation. I don't want to discard anything that could give me a better life in the next future, after all I'm already 70.

I asked my GP for Lamictal and he refused to prescribe it due my age and side effects. He might be right, my age and bad gastritis are sometimes a problem with medications. I would hate to get worst.

I haven't panic attacks now, it's just that my tinnitus is really loud and multitone in both ears, and mainly in my left one. It spikes badly for hours, in the afternoon/evening generally, and that makes me feel I want to die because I can't hardly bear being with such an amount of noise in my head. Once the spike subsides, and the noise is less intrusive, my mood changes for good and I try to go on with my "life". I try not to think much about the future, I know things can get better, that's to be positive, but I also know that they can get worst, and that's to be realistic. So I try not to lucubrate about what's out of my control, that's how I evoid panic attacks .

I'm glad that you are doing better and I wish you a full recovery very soon.

Once more, my friend, thank you very much for your priceless help.

You are very welcome! I hope you find something that helps asap. If you go to a psychiatrist, he might prescribe Lamictal for you for depression. It has helped me from having breakdowns every 3 weeks like I used to and also helped me to reduce my Klonopin usage which I was unable to do on my own. Drugs can work differently on different people though.

 

[DebInAustralia]

I know this is an older thread, but am having to consider something for depression and anxiety.

My tinnitus has been more intrusive since July and am really panicking that I won't rehabituate.

I'm too scared to take western medicine, even serotonin boosters such as 5-HTP. It seems like a mixed bag when directly manipulating serotonin.

So, here I am looking at co factors such as B6. Quite desperate here. Any luck or ideas guys?