Regeneration of the Cochlea: Notch Inhibition + LLLT — A Theoretical Approach

Discussion in 'Alternative Treatments and Research' started by Elixir Eksistir, Feb 28, 2015.

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    1. Elixir Eksistir

      Elixir Eksistir Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1/2015
      I do not know which is the best place for this: Research, Treatments, Alternative treatments and research... the last combined both, so I have decided to post here.

      First, according with recent research is possible to regenerate the cochela in mammals, and therefore is possible to regenerate the cochela in the humans:
      http://www.masseyeandear.org/news/press_releases/archived/new_2014/2014_CHEN_PNAS/
      http://www.pnas.org/content/112/1/166.abstract
      So I was thiking in stack a regeneration enhancer tool like LLLT with a Notch inhibtor, I've done some research and the Notch inhbitors available are:
      Curcumunoids from Turmeric
      http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cncr.21904/pdf
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23219912
      Genistein
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16546962
      http://europepmc.org/articles/pmc3792569
      And Sulphorane
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3783342/


      I've been using LLLT for other applications before my tinnitus started, I never thought it would have a too strong effect on the cochlea due to well know claim that cochlear cells are incapable of regeneration... But these new researchs make me think otherwise, perhaps LLLT really can regenerate the cochela if it is combined with substances thats unlock the WNT pathway.

      First thing, I don't know how exactly works the mechanism of the cochelar regeneration in mammal
      The most basic thing is:
      Gamma secretase inhibition---> Notch Inhibition---> WNT activation---->Lgr5

      These are the questions:
      Can a Notch inhibitor like Curcumin or Genistein lead to Lgr5+?
      Is really needed a Gamma Secretase inhibitor?
      What happens if there is consumed a substance that has the capacity of activate the WNT pathway?

      That would be great if someone can explain these questions

      And what are the possible risks?
      Well, Notch inhibitors listed doesn't look dangerous.
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3783342/

      And in the otherhand Curcumin is very safe, just google Curcumin+cancer and you will see tons of research about Curcumin anti-cancer properties. I wonder if curcumin can counteract the inner ear repair by others mechanism distinct from notch inhibition.

      About Genistein, well it is a flavonoid like Quercetin, Luteolin, Resveratrol and others... flavonoids are very well know anti-oxidants, I don't think that Genistein can be dangerous, on the contrary, it can be good for health.

      The problem comes with the WNT pathway, in some cases it has positive positive effects and in other cases it would be dangerous for too much cell proliferation.

      About """Natural""" WNT activators I only know Magnesium L-Threonate.

      "Well all this bla bla bla sounds good, but I dont have money for a Laser Device"
      Me neither. Low Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) now is called, Low Level Light Therapy, because you can use Infrared LEDs instead of Lasers, both are used, I use a Infrared LED illuminator, of 200 MW and 850 nm, not weak but not the most powerful, you can also build your own laser device, on ebay are too much laser diodes.
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24155530

      So a first and safe approach would be Genistein+LLLT, or Curcumin+LLLT... Perhaps Curcumin+Genistein+LLLT.
      Curcumin needs to be taken in a liposomal form because of is poor absoprtion, or take it with Piperine (10 mg of black pepper extract). Piperine increases the curcumin absortion in 2000%.

      Perhaps this will not work but I will give it a try....The cochlea can be regenerated!, we need the correct susbtances and tools.
       
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    2. dboy
      Jaded

      dboy Member Benefactor

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      1/2007 & 8/2013
      Thanks very much for sharing this. The science is way over my head, but I'm really keen to hear more about how you get on. How do you intend to measure success? Obviously improvements in tinnitus would be good, although that is subjective. Audiograms?

      Best of luck.
       
    3. Elixir Eksistir

      Elixir Eksistir Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1/2015
      Just subjetive improvement :)
      I've done LLLT alone, I think that I will be capable to detect differences from lllt alone and and this "stack".
      Is not easy for me to get a High Frequency Audiogram, here are expensive and difficult to find a clinic
       
    4. dboy
      Jaded

      dboy Member Benefactor

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      1/2007 & 8/2013
      Would you be willing to make a short post in the LLLT User Experiences thread about you experience with LLLT alone? Lots of us are keen to hear any reports about that (good or bad). Also I posted there an online hearing test you could use to get a rough impression of any improvements. Goes up to 16k if your headphones, etc. are good for this.

       
    5. Elixir Eksistir

      Elixir Eksistir Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1/2015
      Thak you!
      I will do it, I've used LLLT alone for brain enhancement, hair loss, muscle building, and to take care of my internal organs. LLLT works... to the ears is more difficult, I've experienced improvements in my tinnitus, today I'm not wearing earplugs, and my T has a lower level, today I can live with this, the first two weeks where an horror movie, now I have my mind coming back.

      The problem is that I'm doing to muuchs things at the same time, I'm taking c60, a powerful antioxidant. I'm doing TDCS sessions in the back to head, I'm trying to stimulate the dorsal cochlear nucleus, I've notices that my T changes the sound when I hit the DCN.

      The last week was very good, I've noticed a rapid improvement with c60+LLLT. Today I will buy Curcumin or Genistein. These new studies about cochlear regeneration are promising... the trick is found the correct substance or susbtances to unlock the mechanism of cochlear regeneration, and then hit the cells with the laser.

      There are two compounds that can potentiate the laser, PQQ and Nicotinamide Riboside.
      Really, today my T is very low, I want to take retigabine, but I ned a prescription first, then buy it overseas, so I will try with levetiracetam (Keppra) first, the current improvements in my T gives me the force to continue with this fight :D

      Well, here is a compilation of the LLLT efects, and a guide to Do It Yourself with Infrared LEDs.
      http://selfhacked.com/2013/11/14/my-review-of-lllt/
       
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    6. dboy
      Jaded

      dboy Member Benefactor

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      1/2007 & 8/2013
      Ahhhh. I thought you were saying you had used LLLT for tinnitus before, but should have seen that your T is recent. Thanks for all your thoughts on this and the link. I'm looking forward to hearing more about how you get on. I understand about the difficulty of knowing exactly where any improvement comes from when trying multiple treatments. But when you have recent onset T you just gotta try everything to make it go away again - or at least reduce as much as possible. Wishing you success.
       
    7. Elixir Eksistir

      Elixir Eksistir Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1/2015
      Very recent, a month with a week. But this improvements of the LLLT+C60 in olive oil in my tinnitus level are not placebo.
       
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    8. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Hall of Fame

      Location:
      East Coast USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      1998
      respectfully, you are very early in this, and many (perhaps even most) people who develop tinnitus will improve within the first months, in many cases achieving complete remission. So, there's really no way to know if any of the things you are doing is having any effect.

      Do you do your own LLLT at home? What device do you have?
       
    9. Elixir Eksistir

      Elixir Eksistir Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1/2015
      Yes I know that, but my T level in the first two weeks was very high. The best improvement that I've noticed was in the last week, I was very bad, because my T was stopped in a uncomfortable level without any sign of future improvement... so in a desesperate action I took c60 olive oil and then I do a session of LLLT in the afternoon and another in the night.

      The next day after that I woke up in the morning feeling fully rested (I do the LLLT session in my head also)... and as today my T has a low level, the high tone has improved too much, is the low tone (bmmmmmmmmmmm) that bothers me but is not all day this is intermittent, actually there are moments when I not hear any T sound, I only hear it If I put my fingers in my ears, and this is a ZUIIIIIUUII in a very low volumen, before this improvement Iwas feeling a high freq T and without the fingers in my ears... and my energy levels, and emotional state is better now, I'm not feeling depressed.
      Well can be this a palcebo effect or an spontaneous remission? Maybe yes.... But I'm also seeing a relantionship between the improvenment and the LLLT session.

      Before the T started I was doing LLLT sessions for physical improvement, with some good results, when T started I do some LLLT sesions in the 2nd and 3rd week, but the improvement was inconclusive, not too much, but the improvement of the last week was really good. My T started the 24th of January so is very recent.

      I think that the crucial factor was the c60, there are some theories on internet that says that this naomolecule can have great increments in the lifespan and anti-aging properties.... but well this is a obscure zone.

      I'm trying to undertand how to improve the laser effects, apparently the notch inhibition required to activate the stems cells in the cochlea requires an specific inhibition by a gamma transferase inhibtor, so a notch inhibition by a diferent mechanism, probably does not produce the same effect... Curcumin is a notch inhibitor but is not a gamma transferase inhibitor, , well curcumin with LLLT will no cause harm, but with this things we need to take some care, because too much cell proliferation an vascularization can do more harm than good.... curcumin is safe because it activates some other biological and celular mechanism is not only a notch inhibitor. Curcumin is a very useful "suplement" for the health.

      And finally... I'm not using and infrared laser, I'm using and infrared LED of 830 nm and 200 mw.... sometimes I use a cheap infreared laser of 650 nm.... really low is a the last is a infreared thermometer... I'm thinking in buy some powerful linfreared LED and introduce it under my ear, or buy laser diodes on ebay, there are some cheap and good options, I don't need 500 USD for doing LLLT at home... but if you want to waste more for a really good and potent device well that is good, a device of 808nm is the best option, but 830 nm and 200 mw infrared LED is not bad, the problem with this is that can't introduce it under my ear, that why I'm thinking in buy just LEDs alone or laser diodes from ebay.

      Here is an example of a infreared LED for a DIY LLLT at home:
      http://www.amazon.com/Crazy-48-LED-Infrared-Vision-Illuminator/dp/B0067S8IZ8
      http://www.ebay.com/itm/48-LED-Illu...mera-leds-Indoor-Outdoor-DC-12V-/191343024734
      http://www.aliexpress.com/item/48-L...era-Free-Shipping-Dropshipping/956035021.html

      As you can see in the last link, this device has a Infrared Wavelenght of 830 nm.
       
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    10. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Hall of Fame

      Location:
      East Coast USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      1998
      Interesting, thanks! That certainly looks cheap to try!
       
    11. Elixir Eksistir

      Elixir Eksistir Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1/2015
      Hello
      Here is another gamma secretase inhibitor:
      http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378874115000434

      and here is an interesting paper about the Notch inhibition properties of Curcumin:
      This is an interesting part:
      Combining a Gamma secretase inhibitor and Curcumin, and then hit the Cochlea with LLLT could be a good intervention.
       
    12. 1MW
      No Mood

      1MW Member

      Cause of Tinnitus:
      ssnhl
      LLLT does not regenerate hair cells also is ultra cheap costs 20 euros max at ebay.
      Devices cost 4000 euros are from scammers and is not differrent laser from that costs 20 euro.
      The price difference are profit for the scammer.
       
    13. Stink

      Stink Member

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      09/2000
      the strength of the laser is different on those cheap lasers... do your homework before being ignorant
       
    14. 1MW
      No Mood

      1MW Member

      Cause of Tinnitus:
      ssnhl
      hey with 20 euro you get 400mw configurable (0-400mw)
      But lasers don't regenerate hair cells can kill hair cells but not regenerate.
       
    15. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Hall of Fame

      Location:
      East Coast USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      1998
      you can get a powerful laser from a $20 blu ray player.

      Chinese companies charging hundreds of dollars or more for "medical" lasers should probably not be trusted.

      @Elixir Eksistir , can you tell me about your tDCS device? Did you build your own? I've been looking in to this. TDCS seems more interesting to me than LLLT.
       
    16. japongus

      japongus Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1998
      Orly? At the low levels of energy they supposedly reach the cochlea?
       
    17. japongus

      japongus Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1998
      Are you the author of selfhacked dot com?
      Did you buy a DIY laser on ebay etc?
      Any positive results on tinnitus?
      Did you try notch inhibition?

      cheers
       
    18. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Hall of Fame

      Location:
      East Coast USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      1998
      FYI I experimented with a cheap LED IR array, it spikes the shit out of my tinnitus if I use it on my ears for ~15 mins, which has made me a little ambivalent about the wisdom of using it on a more frequent basis.
       
    19. soundmachine
      Buzzed

      soundmachine Member Benefactor

      Location:
      USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic + Ototoxicity
      It's not just strength...but wavelength. Putting any "IR" array or DIY laser together has to meet both power and wavelength...otherwise..you probably have worse than a Chinese laser.

      For example: 660nm @ 0.5W
       
    20. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Hall of Fame

      Location:
      East Coast USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      1998
      Yes, I am aware, and the LED array I have is in the 830nm range.
       
    21. soundmachine
      Buzzed

      soundmachine Member Benefactor

      Location:
      USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic + Ototoxicity
      830nm may be too long. Check some of the more expensive lasers and see what they are using. Like the famous Walden laser. Seems too low freq. As I understand it, there are ranges of wavelengths for zones of hearing freq.
       
    22. Zug

      Zug Member Benefactor

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