Collect Money to Get Autifony Drug?

Discussion in 'Support' started by Leo1994, Jan 2, 2015.

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    1. Leo1994
      Suicidal

      Leo1994 Member

      Location:
      Sweden
      Tinnitus Since:
      2005
      Hi!
      I'm just gonna make this short. I got a friend who studies chemistry in the university of Lund (highly ranked). Anyway he is very active in the drug forums and he told me that there are ways to get the drug before the trials are even completed. He told me about how people on forum collect money then order the drug from clinics in like China etc (so called group buy longecity).

      What do you guys say about this? How many want the AUT00063 drug before the trial is even finished?
       
    2. Mal
      Wishful

      Mal Member Team Tech

      Location:
      Denmark
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      02/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Cinema speakers
      I would love the AM-101 drug before 2018 (or whenever it's estimated to maybe hit the market). So where's the cashregister? :)
       
    3. LadyDi
      Busy

      LadyDi Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Florida, USA
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      06/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
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      I personally am not interested in coughing up a bunch of money for an unproven drug. In the U.S., it is illegal to obtain drugs in the way you have outlined (not that people don't do it...)

      Also, more important, I would be really wary about buying unproven pharmaceuticals online from another country. You could end up with a pill filled with sawdust from some scammer. Or, even worse, you could take something that could seriously harm you.

      Just my opinion. I am saving my pennies for medications I can legally obtain -- and they will be expensive enough, I'm sure.
       
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    4. Jesse Pinkman

      Jesse Pinkman Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2011
      How loud is your tinnitus?
       
    5. attheedgeofscience
      Uninvolved

      attheedgeofscience Member Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Denmark
      Tinnitus Since:
      Childhood
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      Head Injury
      To answer your question directly, I would do it (if it was legal). It is no secret that I have already formally requested to be treated with AM-101 (back in May, 2014) by one of the doctors involved in the clinical trial of the same name. He - the doctor - requested the study drug to be released by the pharmacist of Auris Medical. A request for approval was denied by the board of directors, however. This took place in a timeframe of a "couple of hours" and can therefore be considered a decision made "on the spot". I have informally requested the same with the CEO of Autifony Therapeutics. Also denied. Both accounts have been documented with @Markku.

      Regarding the so-called possibility of buying AUT-63 from a supplier in China, I somehow doubt that option your "friend" suggests. Below is the chemical structure of AUT-63 and although not clear to some (most likely), the compound below is not fully disclosed. Those who know about chemistry will pay attention to the fact that "X", "Y" and "A" are not actual atoms or molecules, but "variables" as in "variables of configuration". It is therefore not known what exactly AUT-63 is. So even if someone was to pay a supplier in China 1 million dollars to process the compound below, it wouldn't do much good, because the Chinese chemists would say: which compound? It would be equivalent to a person in a restaurant ordering "soup" for dinner when there are 7 different soups to choose from on the menu. The waiter would say: "which soup?".

      upload_2015-1-2_22-43-6.png

      I therefore doubt that your friend - although being a chemist - knows what he is talking about.

      What I can say is that X and Y being three bonded atoms would exclude Oxygen and include Nitrogen for sure; I believe Carbon is also a possiblity. "A" is not an atom, but a molecule.

      And no, I am not a chemist, but someone with a background in finance and financial mathematics.

      attheedgeofscience
      02/JAN/2015.
       
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    6. valeri

      valeri Member Benefactor Team Awareness

      Location:
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      @attheedgeofscience

      I hope Autifony people know their soup, otherwise there's too much left to guess:(
       
    7. attheedgeofscience
      Uninvolved

      attheedgeofscience Member Hall of Fame

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      They do.
       
    8. Mal
      Wishful

      Mal Member Team Tech

      Location:
      Denmark
      Tinnitus Since:
      02/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Cinema speakers
      I don't know what scale I should use, but it's really loud and intrusive. Why do you ask?
       
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    9. Jesse Pinkman

      Jesse Pinkman Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2011
      I just figured it would be loud when youre willling to try stuff that hasnt been tested properly
       
    10. Mal
      Wishful

      Mal Member Team Tech

      Location:
      Denmark
      Tinnitus Since:
      02/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Cinema speakers
      Definitely. But it's also that my passion, pride and profession relies on the ability to focus, and that's basically gone. From a society perspective, it would also make sense for society to pump some money in me to fix me, so that I can pay them back in the next 30 years on the working market :) (are you reading this, dear health ministry??)
       
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    11. valeri

      valeri Member Benefactor Team Awareness

      Location:
      Australia
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      So they know their A, Y and X???
       
    12. attheedgeofscience
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      attheedgeofscience Member Hall of Fame

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      I very strongly believe so. I do not see how they could produce a drug past the stage of a pre-clinical trial without reaching a conclusion to its final structure(s):

      upload_2015-1-3_1-19-32.png

      The above is a quote from the patent paper. I have already shared the +200 page patent paper in public.

      You will notice that the quote above refers to the chemical structure compound (I), above, in my original post. "Pharmaceutically acceptable" means it needs to be the "right stuff", basically. But they are not going to tell you - or I - what that "right stuff" is.

      Which is also why I doubt the original poster of this thread who suggests that AUT-63 could be "manufactured" in a chemical laboratory in China.

      The joys of the Internet...
       
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    13. LadyDi
      Busy

      LadyDi Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Florida, USA
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      Cause of Tinnitus:
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      Hey @attheedgeofscience: Have I told you lately I am glad you decided not to quit the board?
      Super helpful and well sourced info. You rock.
       
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    14. Leo1994
      Suicidal

      Leo1994 Member

      Location:
      Sweden
      Tinnitus Since:
      2005
      Well, my friend tooled me of course that you will need to have the chemical structure of the drug. He tooled me it is very easy for them to make the drug if they got the strucutre. But, if it is as you say, that the structure isnt fully public, it might be hard. My friend has many times gotten drugs which are in phase 1 trials (mostly drugs with enchance brain function, his a fan of these kind of drugs).
       
    15. Zimichael

      Zimichael Member Benefactor

      Location:
      N. California
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      (1956) > 1980 > 2006 > 2012 > (2015)
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      Ac. Trauma & Ac.Trauma + Meds.
      With regard to what @attheedgeofscience was saying above, regarding "variables of configuration" ref. AUT00063
      Note below, from: http://patents.justia.com/patent/20140107139

      Latest AUTIFONY THERAPEUTICS LIMITED Patents:

      BACKGROUND TO THE INVENTION
      The Kv3 voltage-gated potassium channel family includes four members, Kv3.1, Kv3.2, Kv3.3, and Kv3.4. Genes for each of these subtypes can generate multiple isoforms by alternative splicing, producing versions with different C-terminal domains. Thirteen isoforms have been identified in mammals to date, but the currents expressed by these variants appear similar (Rudy and McBain, 2001, Trends in Neurosciences 24, 517-526). Kv3 channels are activated by depolarisation of the plasma membrane to voltages.....etc., etc., etc.

      I underlined what I suspect is the relevant part here. However, I am no "chemist" by a long shot.

      Best, Zimichael
       
    16. attheedgeofscience
      Uninvolved

      attheedgeofscience Member Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Denmark
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      I have no opinion on such matters - I am not a "professional" on such topics. What I will say is that - as a trivial amateur in chemistry - I would be rather impressed if someone could do that (ie. get a drug produced before it hit the market).

      I would, however, imagine that, if your friend is as professional as you state, then he would already have located the patent papers of AUT-63 and offered his opinion as to whether it would be feasible. As it happens, I already shared these papers previously on TT, but I will attach them again here for reference.

      Starting on 5 page where it states "Detailed description of the invention" and then going on for the next 35 pages, you will see that a number of configurations of the basic molecule structure are listed (I wouldn't know the exact count, but it is easily some 25-30 variants, and possibly many more). These variants are also listed towards the very end of the documents (as "claims"). To the very best of my non-chemical background, the paper therefore lists a number of potential molecules that are patented. I do not believe that the end product is disclosed at any time. Chemical processes are listed and described in detail, but not with precision (ie. they are described in terms of how it "could be done" and not how "it is done".

      Again, as a non-chemist, the only way I see you could go about synthesizing the drug would be to be to get hold of a sample of the drug and put it through a chemical analysis (eg. chromatography). This would require obtaining it unlawfully or paying off some of the clinical trial participants (which - also - very likely would be illegal in some way). And in the latter step, you would need to contact a number of participants in order to ensure that you end up with the real drug and not the placebo (at least 4 to have realistic chance). And again, how do you go about locating participants from a clinical trial? And how likely is it that they would be willing to provide a sample? I don't see this happening so very easily. But perhaps there are more refined ways to do it - I wouldn't know (not exactly my "line of business" for a living; I am just putting in the shoes of a person trying to attempt the exercise, so to speak).

      And just to be clear: I have no intention of joining this endeavor. I merely joined this thread to try to defuse the sometimes stupid hype that certain posts can lead to. And the only way to do that was to illustrate that going about doing what you suggest would - in my opinion - not be very easy. Having said all that, I am sure there are more capable people than me out there in relation to chemistry and "derivative" activities!
       

      Attached Files:

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    17. preslys

      preslys Member

      Location:
      Switzerland
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2014
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      unknown
      ahhhhhh if only this man upload_2015-1-3_16-49-53.jpeg
      is alive he find us chemical formula in one minute.
       
    18. preslys

      preslys Member

      Location:
      Switzerland
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      unknown
      I don't know if some one who participates in this clinical trial can bring us one pill and then
      we can extract the formula ( just an idea )
       
    19. Cor

      Cor Member Benefactor Team Tech

      Location:
      Amsterdam
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      02/2014
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      I would not be surprised if the chemical composition has already escaped the safe haven of Autifony. The chinese seem to have a particular ability to create clones of all kinds of products, from electronics to medication, that they should not in theory have access to.

      Large amounts of money are involved. Not just for the companies, also for (illegally) providing said counterfeiters with samples.
       
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