Frequency Therapeutics — Hearing Loss Regeneration

Discussion in 'Research News' started by RB2014, Dec 8, 2016.

    1. Mr Mister

      Mr Mister Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1996
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Hearing loss, loud music
      I am not sure exactly what kind of word score tests they used but I have completed them in the past and my experience is that there is a learning curve involved. At first you don’t answer unless you are totally certain what you hear. Then after multiple tests you start to figure out what type of words get repeated and you become better at guessing through process of elimination.

      I hope there was some hidden improvement in hearing that doesn’t show in audiograms but that feels almost like defying the laws of physics.
       
    2. Mr Mister

      Mr Mister Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1996
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Hearing loss, loud music
      This is what Wikipedia says about human speech frequency: “The voiced speech of a typical adult male will have a fundamental frequency from 85 to 180 Hz, and that of a typical adult female from 165 to 255 Hz. Thus, the fundamental frequency of most speech falls below the bottom of the "voice frequency" band as defined above. However, enough of the harmonic series will be present for the missing fundamental to create the impression of hearing the fundamental tone.”

      Highest note in a guitar is 988 Hz and that is really high. Some talented sopranos might also reach that note.

      So it is not likely that 8000 Hz and above has material impact on understanding human voice. Let's assume we have a person that has 70 dB hearing loss through all frequencies. Then we improve his hearing between 8000-16000 Hz by say 20 dB. It is hard to say what could the impact be on hearing words but I don’t think it’s much. Those frequencies are so high that even my computer struggles to play them when I listen to the Hz test tones on YouTube.
       
    3. KJS

      KJS Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      July 2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Had been under stress, anxiety, zoloft, slight hearing loss
      If you have read an IPO prospectus they are usually overly cautious on risk indicators. They have to be to avoid litigation to investors. Kind of like side effect indicators to most medicines.
       
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    4. Coleoptere
      Alone

      Coleoptere Member

      Location:
      The Hague
      Tinnitus Since:
      2002
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Bell's Palsy, hearing loss
      @Mr Mister: both the FX-322 and the placebo group had the same test and both of the groups may have had learning curve effects. But at the end the FX-322 group scored significantly better than the placebo group.
       
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    5. JohnAdams
      Festive

      JohnAdams Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Sector Alpha
      Tinnitus Since:
      May 1st 2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Aspirin Toxicity/Possibly Noise
      It wasn't just words, it was words in noise. Higher frequencies are needed to distinguish the noise from some of the 'ssssss' and 't' and 'p' sounds that our mouths make.

      https://www.ecophon.com/en/knowledg...coustics/generating-and-understanding-speech/
       
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    6. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      RB2014
      Confused

      RB2014 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2014 became noticable
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loss of hearing and then stress and anxiety
      I can somewhat hear up to 1 kHz and nothing past. I can hear human voice, but I can only understand about 20 to 30 percent of what is being said. The 1 kHz to 16 kHz range is the difference between distinguishing words that sound alike such as like and bike and hike and Mike, etc etc. For every word I hear I can guess 10 words but only one is right. The higher frequencies help to better hear and understand the specific letters being pronounced.

      It could also be that an audiogram is not the end all of human hearing and understanding. There could be other factors that we aren't aware of. Maybe FX-322 addressed those issues somehow. It did something to help with the better words scores, but what? We can guess that hearing got better above 8 kHz, but I"m not sure that is enough to get the data that they observed.
       
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    7. kelpiemsp
      Swamped

      kelpiemsp Member Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      birth/ recent spike 2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Born with ETD, several acoustic traumas, most recently ETD
      I thought the test result was significant? Which is very much different from significantly better. It’s very possible to get an inflated P-value depending on the mode that is being used. In all reality, the result could be entirely meaningless. We won’t know anything unless the model used to measure the p-value is released.
       
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    8. Mr Mister

      Mr Mister Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1996
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Hearing loss, loud music
      I was showing ways how word scores may be unreliable especially when you have low sample size. Some patients may move faster on the learning curve than others or maybe there is something else going on. There must be a reason why word scores improved but the reason can’t be improved hearing as audiograms were practically unchanged. They clearly state that they assessed audiometric changes from 250 Hz to 8000 Hz and there was no statistical difference between the treatment groups.
       
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    9. FGG

      FGG Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Multi-factorial
      100% agree and I invested in biotech on a small scale/what I could afford for 10 years. They all read like that.
       
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    10. FGG

      FGG Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Multi-factorial
      I think what you are missing here though is the statistical difference between control (placebo) and the drug was at a 0.01 p value. We can assume both groups got the same test so any subjective variable would affect both groups equally. The 0.01 p value says it didn't.
       
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    11. FGG

      FGG Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Multi-factorial
      This is an incorrect interpretation (in a practical real world sense) of how speech recognition works.

      Google the "speech banana" and you can see the frequencies that audiologists use to evaluate speech comprehension and then make adjustments in hearing aids (tl;dr: the frequencies are way higher than the wiki article). The reason for that is that speech (and all sound) follows a sine wave pattern where the resonances (i forgot the exact term audiologists use for thus but i could probably find out if you are interested) on the higher frequencies make it clearer. What this means is you can technically *hear* speech at the lower frequencies but the clarity comes from hearing the resonance at the higher frequency. So speech is heard but it sounds jumbled and unclear. Even localizing sound requires higher frequencies.

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16119356/
       
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    12. FGG

      FGG Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Multi-factorial
      Didn't they say previously the full study would be released sometime in 3rd quarter 2019?
       
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    13. Daniel Lion
      Ape-like

      Daniel Lion Member Benefactor

      Location:
      SE Asia
      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise trauma, hearing loss
      Hi bro, could you elaborate on the IPO... ouch, that went over my head?

      I was looking at my audiogram last night and got really bluesy.
      70 dB loss at 8000 Hz, 60 dB at 6000 Hz, 45 dB at 4000 Hz: 30 dB at 3000 Hz, 25 dB at 2000 Hz, and then up to reasonable patterns. I know your hearing is bad... I ask you, anybody here, for advice. Should I get hearing aids?

      I just lost my closest friend and my anxieties are raw and stumbled across my audiogram. I had been doing really well dealing with the 24/7 eeeeeeeee. I’ve just been knocked off my stride and looking for some advice... anybody?
       
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    14. Chriscom

      Chriscom Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Northern Virginia USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      May 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Likely infection/ear stress after walking pneumonia
      Man, I am really sorry to hear that you lost your closest friend. God loves you and hang in there.

      I don't have my audiogram handy and will check it later, but I'm 99% certain my hearing loss in one ear is less bad than that, at least in some frequencies, and my ENT and audiologist recommended a hearing aid right away. Which I'm trialing now.

      I haven't read the IPO disclosures so I can't judge them specifically, but every IPO must disclose factors that threaten the investment and they throw every single thing in there they can think of.

      While I understand people being disappointed about the safety trial showing much more modest hearing gains than all of us wanted, I think the reaction has been too negative at this stage. For one thing, the safety trial could have shown it's not safe! There's some good commentary above about reasons for hope, and I think "cautious optimism" is completely justified.
       
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    15. GregCA
      Jaded

      GregCA Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Otosclerosis
      I think you should try them.
       
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    16. Mr Mister

      Mr Mister Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1996
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Hearing loss, loud music
      I am not missing anything. You did not not read what I just wrote. I only explained that there may be chance involved in word scores.

      You seem to have a deep belief in p-values. Can you explain what p-value means? What is your take on the sample size?
       
    17. Mr Mister

      Mr Mister Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1996
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Hearing loss, loud music
      Can you guess why Frequency Therapeutics completed the audiogram tests in the clinical study up to 8000 Hz and not up to 16000 Hz?
       
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    18. Mr Mister

      Mr Mister Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1996
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Hearing loss, loud music
      You are suggesting that audiogram no longer is the standard method for measuring hearing loss. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. Where is the extraordinary proof?
       
    19. WickedCarnival

      WickedCarnival Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      Late Autumn 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unsure between azithromycin or viral infection
      To anyone knowledgeable with investing, when do you predict we will able to buy stock of Frequency Therapeutics?
       
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    20. FGG

      FGG Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Multi-factorial
      Sure, happy to. The p value is the chance that the results were due to a chance occurance rather than an effect in the hypothesis. So the smaller the p value, the less likely observations were due to chance.

      P value takes into account sample size, so the smaller the sample size, the greater the effect has to be to get a small p value.

      What this means is, though it's not impossible for the differences between placebo and the drug groups to be due to chance, it's unlikely because of the small p value. So if we are going by odds, it's much more statistically likely there were significant meaningful differences in word scores before and after the drug vs differences in placebo.
       
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    21. FGG

      FGG Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Multi-factorial
      I believe it's because they didn't have a baseline (before injection) of the very high frequemcy measurements because they were just testing safety.

      A safety study just requires your hearing not to get worse on a standard audiogram to not report an adverse event. They happened to get an improvement in word score on the safety study, which is exciting so they published. They probably also hoped it would diffuse further but the full dose has potential to diffuse a lot further.

      Phase 2 is where efficacy is tested and up to 16000 Hz is included in Frequency's exploratory arm of phase 2. That's not a coincidence. I suspect they believe improvements will be seen there based on the lack of "standard" audiogram changes yet having the increased word score and speech in noise.

      Interestingly they are also including THI as well as up to 16000 Hz audiogram. This will be a full efficacy study.
       
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    22. FGG

      FGG Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Multi-factorial
      Feel free to message me if you need someone to commiserate with. Without hyperbole, I lost everything to this.
       
    23. FGG

      FGG Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Multi-factorial
      That information does not appear to be public yet.
       
    24. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      RB2014
      Confused

      RB2014 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2014 became noticable
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loss of hearing and then stress and anxiety
      Yes, you should get hearing aids. At those levels they would help with understanding people and with tinnitus. Individual results vary and they help some people while others not. When I was at those levels they did help a lot though.

      The IPO had a lot of risks listed, but I guess that is pretty standard from what everyone said.
       
    25. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      RB2014
      Confused

      RB2014 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2014 became noticable
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loss of hearing and then stress and anxiety
      I'm just suggesting that if word scores can be improved with no improvement in the audiogram maybe there is more to it than we know. I don't know either though. It could be that their hearing improved beyond 8 kHz. It could be that the sample size was too small. It could be the people learned the words and they got better. We are all just speculating.

      Some people hear better in noisy environments than others. An audiogram won't tell you that.
       
    26. kelpiemsp
      Swamped

      kelpiemsp Member Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      birth/ recent spike 2/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Born with ETD, several acoustic traumas, most recently ETD
      Not to be pedantic, but isn’t the p value measuring the odds that the model is significant, not the actual result? So you can say that with the given model, the result mean X. The real world application is really pretty disconnected from the model. So says the bayesian to the frequentist.
       
    27. FGG

      FGG Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Multi-factorial
      In the sense that real world odds are essentially either it is correlated (to x degree) or it's not, sure. Something doesn't have a 99% chance of being relevant: either it is or it's not a factor.

      The way i was taught is that it gives you the "chance of chance" on those results and the interpretation ("since it doesn't seem like chance, here is a possibility of why...") is not straight from a p value.
       
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    28. d'Wooluf

      d'Wooluf Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      unknown
      Run that by me again?
       
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    29. d'Wooluf

      d'Wooluf Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      unknown
      Yes, you probably should. Best case scenario is that by the time the treatment comes, you'll be ready for your second set of aids. That's a few years of compromised hearing if you do nothing. Be aware that the longer your hearing loss goes unaided, the more your brain forgets how to interpret speech.

      If money is an issue and you live near a Costco, go there first.
       
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    30. leledany

      leledany Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2016-11-02
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic trauma
      If you had bought it you would have lost a lot of money. Be realistic. It doesn’t work.
       
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