Head and Neck Position Changing Tinnitus (And Chances of Improvement with Physiotherapy?)

Discussion in 'Support' started by RandomAccess10, Jan 4, 2017.

    1. RandomAccess10
      Torn

      RandomAccess10 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Carbon Monoxide poisoning
      I've noticed when I push my head down into my chest my T goes from a hiss to a single tone.

      I also had a physiotherapist check my vestibular system who said it's all in my neck (oscillopsia and balance issues) and therapy would fix all!? I'm highly sceptical...

      What are the chances of some improvement with physiotherapy acupuncture, any success stories or is she just after money??
       
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    2. redleg103
      Inspired

      redleg103 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2005
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise?
      I've noticed the same thing. Keep me posted.
       
    3. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      temporarily banished from this plane of existence.
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      karma
      this is normal and it's probably because touch-sensing neurons have gotten cross-wired into your auditory cortex because of neuroplastic changes in the dorsal cochlear nucleus of the brain following an input loss from the auditory nerve.

      some smart people in Michigan are working on a treatment based on this, having pretty thoroughly demonstrated that this is how it works in animal models (poor rabbits!)

      "The Neural Bases and Neuroengineering of...
       
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    4. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      RandomAccess10
      Torn

      RandomAccess10 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Carbon Monoxide poisoning
      So what's the general conclusion here? Treatment would be commercialised how. Unfortunately I'm struggling to watch the whole video here due to viewing on my phone internet connection which is poor, any chance of a heads up? Thank you
       
    5. stophiss

      stophiss Member

      Location:
      Florida
      Tinnitus Since:
      April 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      too full a life
      linearb,
      I couldn't tell from watching the video, how the stimulation is applied. She mentioned an IPhone app and then oddly, a separate device has been built.
      Do you know if the bi-modal stimulus to desensitize neurons responsible for tinnitus...subjection to stimulus for a couple of hours....is the stimulus sound?...or electrical stimulus to parts of the body near the brain?
      They mentioned they have already built a device with pending patents.
      Can you shed any further light?
      Thanks
       
    6. lapidus

      lapidus Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Sweden
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      There's a thread about it here:
      https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...igan-tinnitus-discovery-—-signal-timing.2805/
       
    7. stophiss

      stophiss Member

      Location:
      Florida
      Tinnitus Since:
      April 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      too full a life
    8. lapidus

      lapidus Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Sweden
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      Sorry, I don't know the answers, just figured all the info was in that thread. @linearb was in the study so hopefully he can answer your questions later.
       
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    9. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      temporarily banished from this plane of existence.
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      karma
      I think she was speculating that eventually this could be done with an app, though you'd still need electrodes -- less sure how that would work. I know that their prototype device is built around an Aurdino, and has a headphone output as well as 2 electrodes, think of a TENS machine but much lower voltage, you are barely aware that it's on.

      I am not a neurologist; I'm a compsci guy and not an especially brilliant one at that. But, I learned as much about this as I could, given that I did significant travel to and from Michigan to be part of the study. Here is my understanding:

      * sound signals from the ear travel down the auditory nerve into the brain near the brainstem. The auditory nerve inserts directly into the dorsal cochlear nucleus (DCN), so sound data goes through that structure before it gets to the auditory cortex which is further into the brain.

      * sensory information from touch-sensing neurons in the face/jaw also travel through the DCN. So, the DCN is the first place that these different signals are "integrated"

      * Witnessed in animal studies: when you subject an animal to an ear-damaging loud noise, the signal strength from the auditory nerve going IN to the DCN is reduced. However, the signal coming OUT of the DCN is not reduced. Therefore, there is some kind of "auditory gain" happening in the DCN to compensate for the signal loss.

      * Also from animal studies: prior to a noise trauma, the DCN has some ratio of auditory-sensing neurons and touch sensing neurons. Lets say it's 50/50, just to make it easy. After the noise trauma, the number of auditory-sensing neurons decreases over the following weeks... and the number of touch-sensing neurons increases! So, they think this has something to do with the "gain" -- they think that touch-sensing data is "crossing over" into the auditory stream. This is why many/most people with tinnitus can modulate it by clenching the jaw or neck... it's not that those muscles are necessary tight or problematic, it's just that the data from those nerves has been cross-wired into the audio, so you are "hearing" your muscles. Note that this treatment will almost certainly not work for anyone who cannot in any way modulate their tinnitus with muscle movements.

      So, that's all pretty basis, as far as neurology goes. Now we get into stuff I barely comprehend:
      there is a thing called spike timing dependent plasticity. This is a general process by which the brain reorganizes itself, constantly. The theory is that this kind of plasticity is what causes the DCN to "misfire" and trigger tinnitus. (I use quotes because the brain is working exactly as it has evolved to do, it's just that in this case the result is distressing, or, at best, annoying to us).

      What they have found is that if you stimulate the auditory nerve with a sound, and then also stimulate the muscles in that area with electricity at a very very specific time offset from the sound (milliseconds, or even more fine-grained than that), it can impact that neuroplasticity, and hopefully reduce the extent to which muscle data is "heard".

      So, that's how this is supposed to work. My understanding is that their belief is that this is not, and will never be, a cure: someone using the device may not experience any benefit for a couple weeks. If they do experience a benefit, the effect is almost certain to wear off within a couple weeks of ceasing use of the device. So, this is a palliative, ongoing treatment -- and, of course, even if it works, no one knows if the effect stays stable for many months or years. The only human trial to date was only for 4 weeks.

      Finally, given that this entire model is predicated on bimodal stimulation, it is a dead end for anyone who is deaf and/or has dead facial nerves.
       
    10. Tom Cnyc

      Tom Cnyc Member

      Location:
      NYC
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Warehouse event after years of enjoying music.
      My belief is that issues with the neck, TMJ, etc that were previously quiet become audible after auditory insult. Fixing them will remove the symptoms associated with said issues, however not the symptoms associated with the acoustic trauma.

      I have benefited greatly from having my neck issues worked on.
       
    11. stophiss

      stophiss Member

      Location:
      Florida
      Tinnitus Since:
      April 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      too full a life
      Many thanks linearb. Truly a superb write up.
      What you write when I read it sounds like it was written about me and not to me.
      2.5 years ago, I had a problematic wisdom tooth removed...horizontally impacted with root resting on the inferior alveolar nerve and removing the tooth damaged the nerve profoundly resulting in unthinkable neuropathic pain.
      These are the touch neurons you wrote about in close proximity to nerves related to the hearing apparatus.
      My strong sense is, this is the basis of my tinnitus and hyperacusis....my dysesthesia and neuralgia aka trig nerve dysfunction inducing related touch-sensing data to "crossing over" into the auditory stream as you wrote.
      Cause meet effect.

      I hope there becomes a developed means of redirecting these neurons perhaps through timing you write about with a given therapy that will become available.

      Thanks again
       
    12. Canador

      Canador Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2000
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown

      It's like when an old car starts balking--it's probably due to a combination of factors. Fixing one thing might be an improvement, but it's not like new.

      People often comment that finding a cure for tinnitus will be difficult, because there are so many different causes. Taking that further, it's highly possible that *each person* who has troublesome tinnitus has a combination of causes.
       

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