Hyperacusis without the Pain

Discussion in 'Support' started by Capricornus, Dec 22, 2016.

    1. stophiss

      stophiss Member

      Location:
      Florida
      Tinnitus Since:
      April 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      too full a life
      A good post Paul. I have intermittent TTTS and what I characterize as non life style changing H other than being careful about dishes on granite countertops, racing fire engines with sirens blasting etc. I don't like the TV loud and have general aversion to loud noise and venues. My TTTS I had for a while has seemed to calm down lately. I always theorized mine was related to ETD...due to sinus blockage and allergies but maybe completely wrong about this.
      Sounds like our symptoms of TTTS and H are similar.
      One thing for sure, I wouldn't cut my leg off for this but sure would like a magic pill for my T. My H is livable with only slight adjustment in my lifestyle. I know for many this isn't the case and they have my sympathy.
       
    2. bill 112
      Fine

      bill 112 Member

      Location:
      Republic Of Ireland
      Tinnitus Since:
      02/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise exposure
      Do you ever get caught off guard Stophiss?I mean do you ever get caught by an unexpected noise that's loud or uncomfortable when you weren't expecting it,like a door slamming or a car horn things like that?

      Do you go anywhere with elevated noise levels with hearing protection?Not talking clubs or anything like that but more so a bar or a family gatherings,things like that.
       
    3. stophiss

      stophiss Member

      Location:
      Florida
      Tinnitus Since:
      April 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      too full a life
      Hi Bill,
      I believe you are asking rhetorically or perhaps trying to create a difference between your level of H which is extreme to mine which is not. The answer is yes...all the time. Loud noises which occur all the time as we lead our typical lives really bother me. But I believe there is a difference between bother and real pain and we both know ear pain due to H.

      I flew to MI recently to attend my niece's wedding. I kind of knew or at least anticipated what was in store. I couldn't tolerate the live band noise level. The band was louder than I even thought it may be. I literally felt lightening bolts of ear pain when too close to the dance floor. All I thought about was leaving...as I sought refuge as far away as I could from the massive speakers with huge bass and yet not leave the premises. Fortunately I found others to chat with far away from the music. I had foam ear plugs in the whole time. I could hear conversation perfectly even with foam ear plugs and over the top loud ambient noise backdrop. As best I can tell, this did not cause a setback to my T or my H. I was very concerned it would but the next day I had about the same T and sound sensitivity and notice no degradation. In the past couple of weeks I have had no ear pain so in this regard, I have improved. Who knows what tomorrow will bring.

      I know you are really struggling right now. I believe what you are going through is not directly related to your sound environment because you are much too smart to subject yourself to prolonged loud noise. We ALL with H get caught off guard. Wearing ear plugs all the time in anticipation of being caught off guard maybe worse for H than being caught off guard.

      I wish you relief Bill and I believe your best foot forward is the best diet, exercise, minimum sound exposure and stress level you can manage as you prey your body returns to better health. Health is one of the great mysteries of life. I could never explain why mine was so good my entire life to others that didn't have this luck. Further, I have a hard time explaining why I have contracted T and H now when my older brother who has more hearing loss than me doesn't have either T or H.
      Be well Bill.
       
    4. Ring Ding

      Ring Ding Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1985
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      When I noticed the title of this thread I became very interested as I currently feel like Hyperacusis without pain sort of describes my current situation at the moment. it's been 9 months and I am not really getting the sharp pains upon hearing sounds anymore. For a while the only thing I could tolerate were the sounds of people talking at a regular volume. Everything else was pretty much just causing me pain and with each episode of pain I could feel my ears close up. Fast forward to now and most regular things in my home don't cause pain anymore. I'd say it's more of a discomfort that comes along with certain loud things. I do feel that most things still seem abnormally louder than they really are ( sirens, trains, construction site, trucks ect ) but in saying that a great number of things are tolerated by me for longer periods of time than before or I just tolerate them without a problem.

      I have been to at least seven or so doctors along with their audiologists and was pretty much told by all of them there was no effective treatment and I had to wait it out for anywhere from 6 - 18 months. So at this point I have not been treated by anyone. I already had tinnitus that I was habituated to before all this started. I am still having a large problem in this regard. I think It has lessened in volume somewhat since this whole debacle started but is still much louder than before and can be heard over pretty much everything. I have a feeling of fullness in my ears as well. it's very hard to describe what it is I am actually feeling in there. If i keep myself busy enough it feels full and I don't notice much else but on top of this if I am still and in a quiet place I can almost feel like a sting emanating from a point inside my ears and along with that it almost feels like something is crawling around in there. If I clench my jaw I can hear a crackle noise as well. At this point the aural fullness has not changed in a noticeable way at all since this situation began. it's possible it has improved in such tiny increments that I can't notice it but it seems doubtful.

      I really wonder just what is going on in there ? Every single person who looked into my ears said everything looked fine and they saw no problems. Ear drums looked good, no wax build up and so on. I constantly asked about Eustachian tubes or Tensor Tympani Muscles but was pretty much ignored by everyone and never really given an answer. Would looking into my ears be able to reveal answers to those questions anyway ? I wonder if the fullness goes away if there might be a chance my tinnitus will settle back to they way it was before all this began. It's weird to long for such a thing but I had T since childhood and was living a perfectly normal life with no problems. I just slept with a fan on and that was that.

      I should also include I am fighting a mercury induced autoimmune condition (caused by a vaccine) going on two years now. I know Mercury toxic people develop sound intolerances but i'm just not sure of how all the dots might be connected. The hyperacusis came on slightly after the time when I started using the supplement that mobilizes the mercury in your brain. I have completed a year of Mercury detox and am moving into my second year.

      I'd love to hear any thoughts on all of this.
       
    5. Yashin

      Yashin Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1968
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Penalty save
      I tell you how I see the problem right now. In 2015 and at the beginning of 2016 I had similar doubts to the ones you and Lapidus have now. I used to think I had “hyperacusis”, although I thought it was more or less the same thing as TTTS. Then I began to see everything more clear and to accommodate my ideas. My ideas apply to my case, but, unless I am a creature from another galaxy, they could apply to other cases of TTTS. Everyone has to see how these ideas reverberate with their symptoms, over time. Anyway, I write some raw notes in my precarious English in case they are useful for someone.

      I think there are two or three common types of distorted perception. The first one is “real”, the third one illusory, and there could be a second one which is real (or illusory).

      The first one concerns internal volume. It is present when the person gets unused to real sounds (real dynamics, real spectrum of frequencies) and the brain loses its normal calibration. Also, it could happen when the person, because of an ear pathology which is bothersome or painful, becomes confused and afraid of sounds. Or probably because of a certain state of mind with no connection to any otologic problem. Or because of all this. For example, a man who begins to have TTTS symptoms, and who is not diagnosed properly by his doctor. As a consequence, because the symptoms are uncomfortable/painful, and also because the tension of the TT system, which he thinks has certain analogy to loudness, frightens him and make sounds louder and the TT system more tense, he begins to use earplugs/cotton balls too much (sometimes suggested by his doctor himself) and to have an avoidance attitude towards sounds. As a consequence, after days doing this, the internal volume is increased, especially for high frequencies, which are the ones cut the most by earplugs. The dynamics get distorted. This distortion is “real”, the person really hears louder. And this distortion (call it increased loudness perception –ILP-, distorted dynamics, distorted hearing, hearing louder, or the way you want, even “hyperacusis” if you like the word) is non-pathological and “natural”, in the sense that any healthy person in the same position could end up having this distortion. It is not a disease and it is not caused by any damage in the cochlea, the brain, the middle ear, or whenever. And of course, ILP could be completely reversed. But as Hazell, one of the architects of the precarious “model”, advices on his website, if you were using earplugs for a long time, you should be quit them very gradually, because if you found yourself perceiving a tsunami of sound you could make a disaster, especially if you have TTTS.

      Another example would be a film soundtrack designer who spends a whole day listening to bird sounds in his studio. Using headphones, he obsessively selects the bird sounds from a huge library to create the proper atmosphere to a certain scene. And then he mixes and processes the sounds. When he goes out to the urban streets, he finds himself hearing birds in the foreground of his internal “mix”, with great detail, when he normally doesn’t pay attention to birds. Just another example to show that this is a natural phenomenon and that it doesn’t imply any damage. In this case, the sound designer could enjoy the peculiar perception, because it doesn’t include any physical discomfort. It is only about perception, not a bothersome physiological abnormality like TTTS. And we could talk also about some recreational drugs...

      But when ILP is originated from wrong management of TTTS, it is integrated to the vicious circle of TTTS, complicating things further. From one problem, you end up having two problems. From an uncomfortable sensation, you end up having a nightmarish psychedelic experience.

      Marketing strategies of some commercial audiological treatments take advantage of this first distortion. A lot of people who goes to those clinics have ILP from using earplugs or being terrified of sounds for a long time. So when they naturally calibrate their brain to real sounds, their audiologists tell them it is because the white noise machine “retrained” their brains. And yes, it could have helped, or it could just have been an illusion, a placebo, as they say. Besides, an expensive dedicated apparatus could not have been the best option for playing the “therapeutic” sounds. And some of the tools used in those treatments could help to relax the TT system, just by chance. But the thing is: ILP is not pathological. And if those treatments ignore the real etiology of the problem, if they consider TTTS just “a common reason for blocked ears”, as Hazell wrote on his site linking to Klochoff’s famous paper, if they don’t know how a setback is produced, or why patients are specially sensible to sudden noises, when there is nothing in their theories that explain it, the patient could be worsened by the treatment, or he/she could get relatively better but after years and after agonizing setbacks. Let alone the money they paid... Making this packed treatments not imperfect but necessary, but avoidable and dangerous.

      Moreover, what if one of the creators of TRT, Jastreboff, the abstract poet of otology, having in front of him a patient who is locked in his house because he is suffering an evident TTTS, and probably feeling very bad and depressed, told the patient that he thinks he has “misophonia”, because he didn´t improve with his treatment, when TRT always works in cases of “hyperacusis”, instead of diagnosing him with TTTS, and acting accordingly? And what if another doctor, after listening to a patient who complains of an ear pain, “fullness in the ear” and the sensation that everything sounds louder, sends the patient to do the LDL test, and because their levels of tolerance are around 60db, he diagnoses him/her with “hyperacusis”, instead of “TTTS”? What a disaster, uh?

      The second and the third distortions are the ones intrinsic to TTTS. TTTS symptoms could be somehow different from one person to another. But, just by reading some anecdotes in this kind of forums, it seems that we all share some sensations, with some differences in their intensity (painful or not painful could be a quantitative difference, not a qualitative one; or a spasm compared to a subtle vibration). (@Lex, you don’t have TTTS, or do you? How can you describe your discomfort towards certain sounds?)

      I can only speak from my symptoms, knowing that they could be more or less similar to the ones of others.

      The second distortion is objective and real (or completely illusory). The TT could make noises when vibrates and/or touches adjacent tissues. This is not signal distortion (which is what we are talking about), it is added noise, although it could contribute to the general confusion, in the same way a subjective tinnitus could. But in some cases, there could be another subtle (or not so subtle) extra reverberation of the sound signal itself, as a consequence of muscle abnormal movements. This would be the second distortion. Even Klochoff wrote that some sensations “may involve distortion”. But this extra reverberation could be also illusory, because when the person focuses all his attention on the sound and how it provokes the movement of the middle ear muscles, the extra reverberation could be easily created only by this excess of attention, which, by the way, could be responsible for the muscle movement in the first place. So, in fact, this second distortion could be inexistent, it could be the same as the third distortion I will describe later (someone with “extra reverberation” and good analytic skills would know it better). But those sounds (tissues sounds, extra reverb of external sounds or its illusion) are provoked without a doubt by TTTS, and not by a previous stage called “hyperacusis”.

      Finally, the third distortion is illusory and psychological. The illusion is originated from the action of mixing the sound signal with the physical sensation. Or, better said, from not separating intellectually both things, the sound and the sensation, with all its psychological scopes. It is like saying: this sound is painful, when the sound is not painful, only that you feel pain because the TT is tensed (and also there could be some irritation/inflammation there). And the TT is tensed because of TTTS and not because of a previous stage called “hyperacusis”. There is no chicken and egg question here. And if there is, it should be formulated within the frontiers of TTTS, and not in the faraway, illusory and transcendental space of a supposed “hyperacusis”. The concept of “hyperacusis” is not necessary to understand this audiological problem.

      By the way, the third distortion, as it sometimes produces fear, could trigger ILP. Also, I think it is possible that when the TTs are extremely tensed and irritated, after some kind of acoustic trauma/shock, the internal volume is “automatically” raised, a situation that should be resolved promptly, unless the person began to develop a vicious circle of fear and TTTS. But most probably, that perception of increased loudness is only a consequence of having this new intimate sensation of crappy TTs, and to the fact that the brain still didn’t have the chance to calibrate to “normal” dynamics (it’s like listening to the details of loud sounds). And to this calibration to happen, a more relaxed TT system is needed.

      Now, as I said, if you want to use “hyperacusis” as synonym of ILP, if you like the word, you can do it. ILP as a consequence, for example, of wrong management of TTTS and misinformation, or by becoming phonophobic after the pitiless attack of a loud tinnitus sound, causing or not TTTS as a consequence. “Hyperacusis” is not uniformly and clearly defined by medical texts. It is generally considered a pathological entity, which involves the inexact “decreased sound tolerance”, or “increased sensibility”, or “strong reaction to sound”, and, according to Jastreboff, “is manifested by a patient experiencing physical discomfort as a result of exposure to sound (quiet, medium, or low)”. But J, how can you even talk about “physical discomfort”, if you ignored olympically TTTS in relationship to what you call “hyperacusis”, or, as your comrade in abstractions Hazell, you considered it only “a common reason for blocked ears”?

      So I asked the Nobel Prize songwriter, invasive “moderator”, and TRT spokesman of the Imperial Chat about his “hyperacusis” discomfort. You can see the “conversation” here, thanks to Sen: https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...ening-at-the-hyperacusis-network-forum.18843/

      He answered me with a lie (“D.M. moderates the board”). I asked again. He told me to “see post 9”, a post who didn’t respond my question directly, but described two kinds of pain, according to him. So I told him that an ear pain wasn’t enough for diagnosing with “hyperacusis” and asked what his doctor told him about his pain, whose origin should be determined. Instead of answering openly my very clear and precise questions, he skipped them and lied to me again: “I am just like you, a poster”. I can only take his silences and skippings as a tacit recognition that I was right, that is: that he had TTTS, not “hyperacusis”, and that “hyperacusis” doesn’t exist. What is funny is that user Jirimenzel was attacking on another front, with some coincidences with my point of view, but with a more cryptic style, and Coronel Bob answered obsessively every intervention of Menzel, in a circular and repetitive competition. Anyway...

      As I was saying, we don’t need the concept of “hyperacusis”.

      - TTTS is self-sufficient.

      - TTTS has its own pain.

      - TTTS has its own “decreased sound tolerance”. When the TT system is abnormally tensed/nervous, not functioning well, sudden sounds, but also loud sounds, or the fear experiencing or just anticipating loud sounds, could create more tension and in some cases pain and more drastic movements (spasms, vibrations). And all this is from uncomfortable to tormenting, and thus not tolerated. This DST is explained by TTTS itself, not by a previous and transcendental stage called “hyperacusis”.

      - So, TTTS could have its own LDLs, but because these LDLs could be not rigid, could fluctuate in time, and could be dependent on a lot of reasons, especially regarding emotions towards the experience of the test itself, LDL tests are not very useful. Not to mention LDL tests using a scale of pure tones, which are absurd. Why to even bother the patient to go to the test cabin when it could worsen the situation, let alone other louder tests usually administered. A description is enough. And it is not, some real sounds from speakers (not headphones) could complement.

      - TTTS has its own “sensibilities”. But the patient is not sensible to sounds, but sensible to the uncomfortable and intimate sensations provoked by TTTS. As Purztruq wrote: “There is no discomfort beyond the physical discomfort and the consequent sensations (tension, vibration, tt pain, non-tt pain, or whatever the person has).” When a healthy TT patient is “sensible” to a sound, could it be also because of a subtle TT tension which anticipates further discomfort...?

      - TTTS has its own psychological dimension. When healthy, the TTs have to do with startle reaction and with other functions like pre-vocalization and probably subtle hearing functions (subtle extra attention for certain sounds). They have a contact with emotional centres and that is why, when not functioning well for a while (TTTS), certain bad habitudes of the mind could sustain it, like a stubbornness to tense the TT system. From this point of view, it could be seen as an incarnation of a psychological pathology/characteristic, mainly OCD, depression, and serious anxiety. Klochoff, the creator of “TTTS”, and seemingly a very technical doctor, after seeing 250 TTTS cases, wrote a paper where his hands didn’t tremble to call it “psychosomatic”.

      - There is no need to diagnose TTTS with a mixture of “phonophobia”, as J&H do with “hyperacusis”, because TTTS include psychology and an obvious fear or stress about sound when the person is very affected. Concerning “misophonia”, I don’t know much about it. Everybody has aversion to some sounds which provoke “rage in the brain”. Probably it is pathologic when the person gets insanely obsessed by a sound heard frequently? If there is a man who hates his wife’s sounds while eating, or another one who lives next to a blacksmith where they scrape rusty metal every day, and that provokes TTTS in the long term, well, that is possible, though very rare. But once TTTS begins, it would affect the whole auditory experience of the patient, not only the repetition of the sound that provoked it in the first place.

      - TTTS explains setbacks. As Longinus suggested in a post deleted by the Nobel Prize moderator of the TRT propaganda forum: “the logic of setbacks is the logic behind progress/worsening of TTTS” and “the particularities of progress and setbacks are the particularities of how the delicate TT muscle and system work when they are not functioning well, and not the particularities of a “brain plasticity” which after a relatively loud sound would mysteriously disorganize the neurons laboriously reprogrammed by an expensive white noise machine hooked to the ear and thus provoking a setback.”. I’ll try to write the text in this forum, in a more developed form. Also, user Dave2 wrote it better than me: “It seems to me that if it could be determined what is going on with a setback, that would provide useful information about what is wrong.” I haven’t read any definition of “hyperacusis” which explains implicitly or explicitly how setbacks are produced.

      - TTTS explains why sudden sounds are the most bothersome. Just because when the TT system is abnormally tensed/nervous, not calibrated, the TTs react to sudden sounds like crazy, producing discomfort and, sometimes, pain. The problem is the tension or vibration itself, and the fact that that zone is in a physiological state of alert or self-reproducing nervousness. When a new acoustic reflex is added to this situation, the TT system contracts further (extra tension, thump). The bigger the initial tension and nervousness, the lower the threshold of the reflex. This “LDL” is quite plastic, and although it could be dependent on loudness, it is more dependent on suddenness and the kind of sound as a whole, in a way that couldn’t be determined in a test by individual pure tones frequencies (I hope this sentence doesn’t give a brilliant audiologist the idea to torture a patient with a test with a lot of sudden noises of different kinds). Again, there is no definition of “hyperacusis” as a separate and previous stage which explains the problem with sudden sounds.

      - Another thing is ILP, which concerns the internal volume and is non-pathological, “natural”, and fully reversible. When ILP is originated from wrong management of TTTS, it is integrated to the vicious circle of TTTS, complicating things further.

      The history of the concept of “hyperacusis” is a history of vagueness where confusion in how to define it is arisen, precisely, from analytic confusion. In other words, from theorists trying to conceptualize something which they don’t know what it is, immersed in a swamp of false assumptions and misunderstandings. The object of the study being uncertain, they don’t even think for a moment if that object really exists. “Hyperacusis” has a transcendental, religious-like quality. It is to TTTS what “God” is to human beings, only in the sense that implies a previous and superior stage of existence. But definitely the biggest mistake is to underestimate TTTS and to not understand it fully. Very rarely TTTS is diagnosed when it is all about it.

      P.S. I don’t have the time or knowledge to talk about ILP or DST or phonophobia caused by non-otologic problems. There are also some people who relate having pain associated to the act of hearing and without TTTS. The real causes are unknown (Nerve pain? Fibromyalgia? Cochlear pain? An unknown virus? And does the pain originate from a physical problem, or is it about phonophobia which somatises? And what if it is the same mechanism of TTTS, related to the startle reaction, only that it is not manifested with muscle contractions, but with nerve overstimulation?). But the reason why I asked my first question is because all of you (except probably Lex) described the symptoms of TTTS. And in these kind of forums almost all the anecdotes I read are about what is called “TTTS”.
       
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    6. Yashin

      Yashin Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1968
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Penalty save
      The TT doesn’t contract from high volumes of sounds. And if it does, it should contract subtlety. Talking about the TTs, Klochoff wrote: “there is no acoustic tensor reflex in man unless the sound stimulation is strong, sudden and threatening enough to produce a “startle reaction””. So the problem is the startle reaction and how it could produce an eccentric contraction. And there is no objectivity about that. It depends on the person, the objective measured dB doesn’t mind. It usually happen with closed, unexpected and loud sounds, a gunshot, or a sudden and “loud” sound on headphones, etc. Also, as Westcott explained, it usually requires more than one “shot” to produce an abnormal contraction, like a call centre worker who received not only one loud sound on the headphones, but two or three during the day, and usually a state of stress or tension is also required.

      The eccentric contraction is dependent on an unexpected and threatening sound. This video is graphic:
      Fort Lauderdale Airport Shooting Surveillance...


      Look how the attacker doesn’t startle but the other people, especially the ones close to him, startle and raise their hands to try to cover their ears. Their hands move like the TT in an AS, they move but they are not fast enough to protect anything.

      TTTS can happen suddenly, after an acoustic impact, but also gradually, after a cumulative overstimulation of the tensor tympanis. When the eccentric contraction or the gradual increasing of tonicity happens, the TT system releases its chain, and begins to float around a territory of uncertainty. TTTS is this state of the TT system of being in a psycho-physiological purgatory.

      TTTS doesn’t need a cochlear damage to appear.

      When the TT system is not functioning well, there is no detection of damage from where the TT system would act accordingly to “protect” the cochlea. As I said, there is no TT protection even in a healthy TT patient, with or without cochlea damage.

      In TTTS, the TT system is abnormally tensed/nervous, and it is the tension itself what produces further tension (or pain, vibration, or whatever), and that is what is uncomfortable. The TT system is tensed in the first place, because, according to Klochoff, of psychological (and not neurological) reasons. Westcott developed more the idea when she studied human workers (and not tortured rats or mammals like others “researchers” do) who suffered acoustic shocks.

      She thinks that after the TT abnormal contraction and certain irritation, with proper care, the system would normally function in some hours or days. The problem is when the TT tension is perpetuated by psycho-physiological reasons, in a perverse vicious circle, which she calls acoustic shock disorder (ASD). Klochoff has mentioned this possible circulus vitiosus as a result of psychological issues.

      And I add, as I wrote previously: TTTS doesn’t need a previous stage of a separate thing called “hyperacusis”.

      But there is one aspect that nor Klochoff nor Westcott covered, which is the physical aspect of the problem. Sometimes, after an AS or after hard and/or continuous contractions, the TTs could change a bit their appearance, for example, they could have enlarged diameter or some other tiny deformation. The TT could be touching the walls of adjacent tissues. Or probably it is not the TT, but the veli palatini, or another thing. As part of a very delicate system, could this physical change affect the system and complicate the breaking of the vicious circle? Is there chronic inflammation when it could be felt like that? What does the crawling sensation when yawning mean? Questions without answers.

      In theory, if there is no reaction, those physical changes are irrelevant. The problem would still be the extra tonicity, not the shape. I am not a great forum reader, but I think I read some successful stories where the person had a lot of strange TTTS symptoms, including thumps and pain, and he/she managed to make them disappeared completely. Probably some of you read more stories about TTTS cases recovered? I’m talking about natural cure. If a finger is fractured, you can cut the finger, but that is not a cure...
       
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    7. Yashin

      Yashin Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1968
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Penalty save
      @Ring Ding
      I think you have what is called "TTTS".
       
    8. SilverSpiral
      Sad

      SilverSpiral Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      ACOUSTIC TRAUMA
      @Yashin Can TTTS cause tinnitus though?
       
    9. Lex
      Mellow

      Lex Member Benefactor Team Awareness

      Location:
      Southeast Asia
      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Bad decisions
      To be honest, I don't fully understand what TTTS is. But here are my other symptoms which I think fall under TTTS:

      * Certain sounds make my ears thump along with the source. Like if I crumple plastic packaging in my hands, I can feel my ears beat like a drum in tune. This produces a bit of pain.

      * My ears feel bruised sometimes. For example, there was this afternoon at work when the guy sitting across the aisle from me slammed his pedestal shut, banged his mug on his desk, and strewed coins acrossed his keyboard all within an hour. The sounds startled me a bit as they happened, but didn't really cause pain immediately. Yet when I was about to go home, I could feel my ears (especially the right one which is facing where the guy is sitting) were particularly tender.

      * I feel a sharp, stabbing pain inside my ears, usually on the right, but my left ear gets that, too. It happens randomly, even when I'm in a quiet place and haven't been exposed to sounds. This was actually the first symptom I experienced before the T and H set in. For about a week before T and H happened, I could feel this pain which I mistakenly attributed to a sinus infection.
       
    10. CDNThailand

      CDNThailand Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/17/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      MP3, Stress, TMJ
      Same as me.....
       
    11. Yashin

      Yashin Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1968
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Penalty save
      @Lex :

      Yes, I think you have the Tensor Tympani Syndrome.

      Do you also have some pressure/fullness in the ears sometimes? Or you don’t feel the slightest tension, solely the thumps and pain? What would “Tender” be like? A subtle nervousness or tension, a sensation of inflammation or of something that doesn’t belong there?

      I know, it is difficult to find the proper words, almost impossible. But basically, all these symptoms correspond to TTTS, which has to do with the auditory startle reflex mechanism and the middle ear muscles physiology. I call all that the “TT system”, in the absence of a better expression. That’s why sudden sounds feel awful. The problem is within that mechanism, which is a bit tensed and erratic and should relax and stabilize with time. There is no other problem, unless you provoke it yourself.

      @CDNThailand :

      Hi. Well, the same for you.

      Do you have TMJD? TTTS could be a consequence of mandibular problems. But most times it is related to the startle reaction mechanism as a consequence of sound exposure. If tinnitus is not tolerated and perceived as threatening, I think it could also induce TTTS. TTTS could have several causes at the same time. TTTS symptoms and TMJD symptoms could overlap. All those muscles are interconnected somehow. Unfortunately, doctors seem to know very few about them, especially when there is an abnormality.

      @SilverSpiral :

      Dude... Tinnitus doesn’t exist either, didn’t you know?

      No... just joking.

      I don’t know too much about tinnitus.

      Probably you know more than me.

      I have a hunch about the TTTS-Tinnitus connection, but nothing I can develop right now.

      Because I don’t read about tinnitus, I don’t know if finally there is agreement as to whether cochlear damage is needed for tinnitus to exist (researchers seem to spend most of their funds in motels and hookers). Probably there is tinnitus with and without cochlear damage? Anyway, in both situations another thing is needed. And in some cases, this thing could be related to the startle reaction mechanism, and that is the relationship with TTTS.

      Based on my ignorance, this is all I can say at this moment.
       
    12. Yashin

      Yashin Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1968
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Penalty save
      I don’t have the option to delete or edit a previous post written by me. So how would the post disappear?
       
    13. lapidus

      lapidus Member

      Location:
      Sweden
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      It was deleted a long time after it was written by moderators I guess. It were several posts from me, Dr. Nagler and others in a thread that for some reason were deleted.
       
    14. CDNThailand

      CDNThailand Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/17/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      MP3, Stress, TMJ
      Yes I have tmj, and same symptoms as Alexandra
       
    15. Lex
      Mellow

      Lex Member Benefactor Team Awareness

      Location:
      Southeast Asia
      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Bad decisions
      Hmmm, I don't feel fullness in my ears. More like a stabbing pain deep inside. This seems to happen randomly (or at least, not immediately upon sound exposure). But my guess is that this stabbing pain is a delayed reaction to sounds and/or connected to sinus blockage. It can't be a coincidence that I get this kind of pain whenever my sinuses are blocked.

      As for the tenderness, "bruised" is the closest word I can come up with. Yes, it's like my ears are somewhat inflamed.

      I also get random earlobe pain. It's like I wore earmuffs for too long, even though I didn't wear them at all. I thought it's just in my head, but when I looked in the mirror, my earlobes turn red whenever they feel painful.
       
    16. Ring Ding

      Ring Ding Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1985
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      I have constant ear fullness. I feels a little more in one ear than the other buts it's been the same way for 9 months. It can be hard to notice but when I am still and alone I can feel like a pulsating or something. It still feels like an injury had ocured. I also hear a crunchy type noise when I clench my jaw a little bit. The ringing in the more full ear is off the charts. It's pretty bad in both but I don't know if the other ear is closed up more causing me to hear it more.
       
    17. japongus

      japongus Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1998
      Hilarious account of it all. I hate writing and arguing about this, generally I hate reading about it too, but I have to, so I was only imitating his style. I'm curious, what do you disagree with me about?
       
    18. japongus

      japongus Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1998
      etc

      This is all a great summary of the state of the art of the matter, or an opening for what should be getting debated around, instead of Jastreboff or Liebermann talking at conferences just because they slap ''hyperacusis'' onto their essay titles, or the disgraceful parading around of the term ''misophonia''. Movements are mentioned as illusory or real depending on what forum post or esoteric pubmed article one is reading and I can't be arsed right now to go into all the specifics.
       
    19. VRZ78

      VRZ78 Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      08/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      infection
      I don't think this is the only kind of pain that come with H. I too feel TTTS in my left ear when it is quit loud and before I could feel it every day in class. Maybe it's different with other people but for me the pain that comes from this is easily bearable and easy to ignore.

      But sometimes when they are specific sound I feel like a stab in my ears like if something moved inside and my whole head and body is vibrating and painful for a brief time it makes me cringe instantly. Man if even people talking would create this I'd be gone already and I don't think that's muscle related
       
    20. japongus

      japongus Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1998
      Well I have both of those things, in a gradient. Louder and more sudden the greater the vibration/stab. Vibrations are also unbearable if you have them with quiet sounds like a keyboard or mouse like I do. But pain is also there like with a barking dog right next to me. I don't have lingering pain after sound but then again I haven't gone experimenting with loud sounds since my acoustic traumas, and besides lingering pain is linked to trigeminal/neuropathic thingies that the tensor tympani has access to.
       
    21. Marc22
      Wtf

      Marc22 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1995
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      exposure to broken muffler noise
      I have had hyperacusis for 21 years. There are many patterns I have noticed, most of which I can explain. But I have never understood why I sometimes have pain when my hyperacusis is more acute, and sometimes I have no pain when it is acute. When my h. is tolerable I never have any ear pain.

      One other weird pattern is that my ears are more sensitive to cheap sounds from ghetto blaster type equipment , and cheap TV speakers. These sounds , even at low levels, KILL my ears and quickly. Since I am sometimes tempted to listen to some music from them , even if for a minute, I sometimes hurt myself. A week a o I really hurt myself and now have hyperacusis, which is tormenting me physically and emotionally. What a risk I take in doing this, yet I sometimes do it. And now I am paying the price, a steep price. Why? All for the love of music. What a diabolical irony!

      Marco
       
    22. Marc22
      Wtf

      Marc22 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1995
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      exposure to broken muffler noise
      I just wanted to add that when I have ear pain, that pain also usually extends into my jaw area, but to a lesser extent. And if it is really bad I feel pain in the neck area also. It is possible that the jaw pain is due to clenching against the ear pain, but I cannot tell.

      Marco
       
    23. Yashin

      Yashin Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1968
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Penalty save
      @Lex

      Hmmm, I don't feel fullness in my ears. More like a stabbing pain deep inside. This seems to happen randomly (or at least, not immediately upon sound exposure). But my guess is that this stabbing pain is a delayed reaction to sounds and/or connected to sinus blockage. It can't be a coincidence that I get this kind of pain whenever my sinuses are blocked.

      As for the tenderness, "bruised" is the closest word I can come up with. Yes, it's like my ears are somewhat inflamed.

      “Fullness/pressure in the ear” is the most common symptom of TTTS.

      It would be interesting to know exactly how certain people don’t have the symptom. Saying that the TT system is more nervous than tensed could be easy and naive, although not entirely incorrect. Probably it is related to the specific way those muscles are articulated, or the way the cavity is ventilated as a consequence of that. One particularity of the nervous/irritated TTs, is that they need a short and slight reaction to be tensed further, but they need a much longer time to recover the initial state, even if we work consciously on relaxing the system and not hooking in a vicious circle. Anyway, recovery would happen when this sensible system relaxes completely and accommodate well, and some part of the brain disconnects or forgets the stupid necessity to tense the system. A gradual, cumulative process would be needed. You will find yourself forgetting about the problem and with no TTTS symptoms, and that is where you will understand what I am saying.

      I also get random earlobe pain. It's like I wore earmuffs for too long, even though I didn't wear them at all. I thought it's just in my head, but when I looked in the mirror, my earlobes turn red whenever they feel painful.

      Weird. The TT system has to do with one of the most intimate sensations we could experience, which touches our innermost sense of vulnerability. I have never heard about red lobes. Instead of having “fullness”, you have this. Everyone is different.

      @VRZ78

      I see that you are one of those TTTS-hyperacusis overlappers.

      I think all the physical symptoms you describe could be a consequence of TTTS. Think that the TT system has to do with one of the most intimate sensations we could experience, which touches our innermost sense of vulnerability, so your whole body could react when that system is tensed and erratic.

      If by “hyperacusis” you mean decreased sound tolerance (DST, which generally is DSST, decreased sudden sounds tolerance, related to the beginning of sounds), that is a consequence of TTTS. If you mean increased loudness perception (ILP), if you have this, it is a consequence of fear, overprotection and how your mind articulates/understands/manages TTTS.

      Just my point of view.

      All the best.

      @Ring Ding

      When you just wake up, do you have “fullness”? When does the fullness appear? A few seconds after you wake up, a few minutes, or later during the day?

      @lapidus

      I think moderators can delete posts if they are against the rules of the board. So if the posts were legally correct, probably it was not a mod who deleted them, or it was a mod with also a higher rank. Who knows.
       
    24. Yashin

      Yashin Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1968
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Penalty save
      I suppose you are the Czech filmmaker in the Poisonous Chat.

      I don’t know what you mean by “account of it all”, but what you quoted is just a description of the brief dialogue I had with Bob. That thread is more than that. I think you did a great job in that thread.

      I visited the place today. Bob is dead, after more than ten years of activity. Surely this has NOTHING to do with the brief suspension of the saloon after Sen’s thread. The three stooges are now two. They keep violating rule number 3 of the board. TRT mopes are lurking, waiting for brain washing prime time. Doc is back, at least temporarily. Is he the real chief of the gang? Is it Ban? Or is it Blue Jay himself, the master puppeteer of erratic souls? How could Bob have been the chief, under what philanthropic circumstance, interest, money, or whatever, and everything done clandestinely, under the coarse charade of a regular poster, “just like you”? And what about Bobby, the singer? Is he still monitoring? It’s like Twin Peaks, we must not confuse Bob with Bobby. I guess Bobby is dead too. We should hire Mike Pompeo. Based on the characteristics of the case, Agent Cooper would be better, or perhaps someone like Joseph Rouletabille.

      On what I disagree with you? I don’t know. You tell me. Probably we disagree on the etiology of TTTS.
       
      • Funny Funny x 1
    25. Yashin

      Yashin Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1968
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Penalty save
      Thank you for the comment.

      Indeed, if William Bourroughs resurrects and decides to change the “Naked Lunch” title into “Naked Hyperacusis”, he could be talking with Liberman, Hazell and Benway in the next symposium. Surely there is a thin line between real and illusory distortions, as there is between documentary and fiction. I have no doubt some authors of esoteric papers use peyote as a pathway for transcendental knowledge, but they end up writing pure crap. One thing is for sure: the Holy Bible is a great piece of fantasy literature, but the TRT Bible sucks big time.
       
      • Funny Funny x 1
    26. Mark Beehre
      Facebooking

      Mark Beehre Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Wellington, New Zealand
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2008 // 11/2014
      Dysacusis?
       
    27. PaulBe

      PaulBe Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Cairns
      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Probably sound, though never proven
      A good word. Much under-used.
       
      • Agree Agree x 2

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