Shooting Rifles with Silencers While Having Chronic Tinnitus?

[Bill_]

Ok, here's a tricky question that probably has no clear "right" or "wrong" answer, but I'll ask it anyway:

Has anyone here had experience shooting rifles with suppressors while having chronic tinnitus? I know rifles are extremely loud, but I have always dreamed of getting my hunting license here in Germany. Even though I mainly want it so I can go bowhunting in Hungary, I still have to pass the shooting exam, which includes rifles (.222 and .308) as well as a shotgun.

Since suppressors are now legal here, I can use one. I spoke to the instructor about my "special case," and he agreed to let me take the exam on a separate date without other people on the range, so I will not have to deal with the noise from other rifles.

The plan is to shoot alone on an empty range with a suppressed rifle, using subsonic ammo and double hearing protection. Technically, the rifle should not be louder than about 120 dB, and I would wear earmuffs with a -37 dB rating and plugs with a -36 dB SNR rating (which should combine to roughly -40 to -42 dB).

My question is: has anyone tried a similar setup? Do you think this would be "safe" for my ears?

 

[Juan]

After years with severe hyperacusis, progressing into tinnitus + hyperacusis + hearing loss I wouldn't be around anyone shooting a rifle... not worth the risk, and my ears would not be able to stand it.

 

[jasonbourne]

Ok, here's a tricky question which probably has no "right" or "wrong" answer ?

I'll stop you there. The answer is don't do it. No amount of ear protection will stop damage from guns, it only minimizes it. If you already have tinnitus you will make it worse guaranteed.

 

[jasonbourne]

Technically the rifle shouldn't be louder than 120dB and I'd wear muffs with -37dB and plugs with -36dB SNR rating (so that should add up to roughly -40-42dB).

That's not how it works:

https://www.sensear.com/blog/noise-reduction-rating-nrr-a-beginners-guide

You will be looking at a maximum of 20 dB reduction.

 

[AVIYT]

Honestly, hearing protection + suppressors should be okay. Just shoot small caliber

 

[Bill_]

That's not how it works:

https://www.sensear.com/blog/noise-reduction-rating-nrr-a-beginners-guide

You will be looking at a maximum of 20 dB reduction.

This is actually the first time I ever heard of this calculation method. it doesn't seem to make much sense: 30dB NRR are actually only 11.5dB reduction because you have to subtract 7dB from the NRR and then divide the remainder by two and that is then the real reduction?

 

[jasonbourne]

Honestly, hearing protection + suppressors should be okay. Just shoot small caliber

Such horrible advice. It's like telling a lung cancer patient it's ok to smoke as long as they have quality filters.

 

[RishRamsey]

This is actually the first time I ever heard of this calculation method. it doesn't seem to make much sense: 30dB NRR are actually only 11.5dB reduction because you have to subtract 7dB from the NRR and then divide the remainder by two and that is then the real reduction?

This calculation is to accommodate for protection lost due to incorrect use of earplugs. A lot of people don't really know how to put plugs in, hence a very conservative methodology to give a rough idea of basic protection.

If you are extremely comfortable about how to put ear protection in with a good seal, you should get the number mentioned on the packet.

Coming back to your question, I guess it depends on your severity and your other symptoms, like for me, I have pretty bad hyperacusis hence I know that my ears would never be able to handle such stuff even with all the protection. If you think your ears can handle it and do not spike easily enough, well then you know what to do.
Only you can answer that.

 

[jasonbourne]

This calculation is to accommodate for protection lost due to incorrect use of earplugs. A lot of people don't really know how to put plugs in, hence a very conservative methodology to give a rough idea of basic protection.

If you are extremely comfortable about how to put ear protection in with a good seal, you should get the number mentioned on the packet.

Coming back to your question, I guess it depends on your severity and your other symptoms, like for me, I have pretty bad hyperacusis hence I know that my ears would never be able to handle such stuff even with all the protection. If you think your ears can handle it and do not spike easily enough, well then you know what to do.
Only you can answer that.

"This is interesting. I found this document from the NIOSH that explains how the NRR is measured.

The "subtract 7" is a rough correction term for converting from dB(C) to dB(A). C-weighting places more weight on low frequencies than A-weighting, so the number needs to lowered slightly. Most modern noise meters use A-weighting.

The "divide by 2" seems to also be a rough rule of thumb. The manufacturers calculate the NRR in a lab setting where a professional puts the hearing protection on a test subject and measures the noise reduction. This ideal setting is very different from the real world, so the NRR needs to be "derated" for real world use.

The NIOSH actually has more complicated recommendations than always dividing by 2. On page 64 of this document, they recommend a 25% reduction for earmuffs, a 50% reduction (i.e. divide by 2) for formable earplugs, and a 75% reduction for all other types of earplugs. Interestingly, they say that the reduction should be done before converting to dB(A), i.e. divide by 2 and then subtract 7.

Overall these rules of thumb seem very imprecise to me and are probably a bit overkill. Of course, when it comes to your hearing, it's always better to be safe than sorry"

It is more complicated than I thought. I guess the lesson learned is you cant trust lab conditions. In the end, never use ear protection to have fun. Only when it is needed.

 

[linearb]

I won't shoot anything bigger than .22rimfire unsuppressed, if I can avoid it.

I'm personally comfortable shooting subsonic .45ACP with a suppressor, and I have thought about getting one and getting a pistol and carbine rifle in that caliber, but the Feds have to sort out their shit on the federal classification of cannabis, first, because I care a lot more about growing my own free weed than I do about owning guns/suppressors, and right now doing both of those things at once is a felony even if weed is legal in your state.

I still shoot friends 7.62x54 and .223 once in a while, usually only a few shots, with plugs and muffs. I assume that doing this on a regular basis is going to chew up your hearing, so I don't make a habit of it, but I've never noticed even transient threshold shifts from it.

This is actually the first time I ever heard of this calculation method. it doesn't seem to make much sense: 30dB NRR are actually only 11.5dB reduction because you have to subtract 7dB from the NRR and then divide the remainder by two and that is then the real reduction?

This is how OSHA does it: https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/1910/1910.95AppB -- A, B, C weighting, different protections at different frequencies; things are complicated.

If you get into the really, really big bores (maybe .308, obviously .50BMG) then you're into a zone where bone conduction may be sufficient to screw you over no matter what kind of earpro you use.

It is more complicated than I thought. I guess the lesson learned is you cant trust lab conditions. In the end, never use ear protection to have fun. Only when it is needed.

I think this is fairly silly. A given activity with given ear pro either is or isn't damaging, whether it's being done for work or pleasure. My motorcycle and my lawnmower put out about the same ~105db.

 

[Shaqz]

@linearb how does weed affect your tinnitus? I smoked for 4 years straight then got hit with tinnitus in December and wanting to smoke oh so bad... any advice?

 

[jasonbourne]

I think this is fairly silly. A given activity with given ear pro either is or isn't damaging, whether it's being done for work or pleasure. My motorcycle and my lawnmower put out about the same ~105db.

Yes and 100 dB is apparently harmless for 15 minutes. Want to try it?

 

[linearb]

@linearb how does weed affect your tinnitus? I smoked for 4 years straight then got hit with tinnitus in December and wanting to smoke oh so bad... any advice?

It spikes it and before I was handling my tinnitus with other meds, my cannabis use was off and on. However, some people notice no effect, others a benefit... we're all different.

Yes and 100 dB is apparently harmless for 15 minutes. Want to try it?

Not deliberately but I've been exposed to that by necessity a good number of times since my trauma in 2010, and it never caused any noticeable issues. I'm not suggesting or encouraging that, but it's hardly disastrous in the way "a gun went off right by my head" is.

More than half of the people who work in small engine and bike shops around here that I've talked to have some degree of tinnitus, and basically all of them have at least moderate hearing loss. But, there's a big difference between "10 mins" and "working in a garage on a bay of bikes all day".

 

[jasonbourne]

It spikes it and before I was handling my tinnitus with other meds, my cannabis use was off and on. However, some people notice no effect, others a benefit... we're all different.

Not deliberately but I've been exposed to that by necessity a good number of times since my trauma in 2010, and it never caused any noticeable issues. I'm not suggesting or encouraging that, but it's hardly disastrous in the way "a gun went off right by my head" is.

More than half of the people who work in small engine and bike shops around here that I've talked to have some degree of tinnitus, and basically all of them have at least moderate hearing loss. But, there's a big difference between "10 mins" and "working in a garage on a bay of bikes all day".

Dude I'm sorry but you are absolutely full of shit and your advice is doing harm. Science is not on our side. Get this straight. Theoreticals are out of the window. The only thing we can do is not take any risks.

 

[linearb]

Dude I'm sorry but you are absolutely full of shit and your advice is doing harm. Science is not on our side. Get this straight. Theoreticals are out of the window. The only thing we can do is not take any risks.

I'm not giving anyone advice, I am explaining how I have lived my life since my tinnitus became much worse following a noise trauma 10 years ago.

I don't really know what your point is. You asked me if I would like to be exposed to something. No, I would not like to, nor would I needlessly, but a few situations have come up where it was not avoidable and I do not believe that I was harmed by it.

You've had tinnitus for two years, and I am guessing you have zero firearms experience in that time? I've had tinnitus for twenty one years, at the same obnoxious level since my noise trauma in 2010, and I have probably fired a couple thousand rounds of ammunition of one kind or another since then. @Bill_ asked about "safe" shooting setups; given that I have done a lot of shooting, I am answering the question, from my perspective only.

You do you, man, I will do the same

"Not taking any risks" is more or less possible for some, than others. For instance, my lifestyle means that "social distancing" is a joke because I only leave home once a week anyway. I get zero urban noise exposure, almost zero traffic noise exposure. On the other hand, I need to be able to run chainsaws, log splitters, and other gear like that which tends to idle in the ~90db range and redline more towards 110. I use plugs & muffs, take breaks, and if it is causing me damage it is occurring at a rate that's not perceptable. My thresholds on a test look the same as they did 15 years ago (that's unlikely to last as I enter my 40s, though).

Likewise, guns here are just a fact of life. Fox in your henhouse? Not a lot of fun with a bow, ever try to peg a small mammal with a bow? It's easier said than done. Fortunately I don't really have large animal or human invader related concerns, so .22 gets 'er done.

 

[Trent Hahn]

Ear plugs, high db reduction ear muffs, and a suppressor if you can.
No one on a range will think less of someone for doubling or tripling up on hearing protection.

All my damage is from gun shots and explosions, from both hunting and being an 11B for years.But I still shot a lot and hunt on occasion. Hunting is the higher risk for many because a lot of people don't carry ear protection when they hunt. Newer ear muffs are made for it though.

 

[GeorgeLG]

I shot competitively for years and protected my ears the entire time. I have tinnitus, hyperacusis and ear pain. I'll let all the previous posters slug out the NRR, real world, additive, ... debates but I offer you to consider that no matter how hard you work to protect yourself you will eventually get caught, in that brief moment with a completely unprotected firearm discharge somewhere near you and you need to consider what that might do to your condition. I cannot comment on if the shooting in general is OK for you with high level protection as I quit after my ears got damaged. That said, when I competed I found that the quietest I was able to get everything was with 3M earsoft foam plugs and 3M Peltor 105 ear muffs which I show in my avatar. I have no idea how quiet I would think that is now since I cant take a shower or drive without ear protection. Guns are out of the question now for me and I used to discharge around 15,000 rounds a year.

George

 

[parsky]

Subsonic ammo and a suppressor will be staple gun quiet. Add hearing protection on top of that and it will be very quiet.

Now shooting around others there is no guarantee. Wear good muffs with a high NRR and foam earplugs at a minimum.

 

[Vincent R]

Technically the rifle shouldn't be louder than 120dB and I'd wear muffs with -37dB and plugs with -36dB SNR rating (so that should add up to roughly -40-42dB).

My question is now: Has anyone tried a similar setup? Do you think it's "safe" for my ears?

The SNR for a particular hearing protection tends to be higher than its NRR. For a safety approach first, you should look at the NRR instead.

The best hearing protections on the market has 33 NRR for foam earplugs and 31 NRR for earmuffs. A study conducted by the US Navy showed that well inserted earplugs with 29 NRR provided 16 dB in protection, so even the NRR is (far) too generous.

I think you can realistically expect some 20-25 dB in protection in total, so what we are looking at is repeated exposure between 95-100 dB.

Perhaps you will be okay, but I wouldn't take the risk.

 

[Juan]

and 3M Peltor 105 ear muffs which I show in my avatar

Are those the same as Peltor Optime III?

 

[Stacken77]

The SNR for a particular hearing protection tends to be higher than its NRR. For a safety approach first, you should look at the NRR instead.

The best hearing protections on the market has 33 NRR for foam earplugs and 31 NRR for earmuffs. A study conducted by the US Navy showed that well inserted earplugs with 29 NRR provided 16 dB in protection, so even the NRR is (far) too generous.

I think you can realistically expect some 20-25 dB in protection in total, so what we are looking at is repeated exposure between 95-100 dB.

Perhaps you will be okay, but I wouldn't take the risk.

Very well put @Vincent R.

It's actually very easy; you don't shoot weapons with tinnitus, or especially while having any degree of hyperacusis. It's just rolling dice with one's life. There may be some whose ears can handle the exposure; good for them, but I personally think it's very risky.

My personal belief is once we have got tinnitus or hyperacusis, we should surrender to a quieter life, even if it seems dull, since these conditions is unlike most other medical conditions. This crap carries some huge respect.

Stacken

 

[GeorgeLG]

Are those the same as Peltor Optime III?

They look very similar but I don't know on the level of protection because the specs are not comparable. The 105 states an NRR of 30 and the iii states "noise reduction of up to 34 dB". I use the former but have never tried the latter.

George

 

[Juan]

They look very similar but I don't know on the level of protection because the specs are not comparable. The 105 states an NRR of 30 and the iii states "noise reduction of up to 34 dB". I use the former but have never tried the latter.

George

Ok, thanks for your detailed answer George.

I asked in case there was "active" sound reduction, specific to shooting earmuffs. Have you tried those models?

 

[GeorgeLG]

Ok, thanks for your detailed answer George.

I asked in case there was "active" sound reduction, specific to shooting earmuffs. Have you tried those models?

No I have never tried noise cancellation headphones. The concept is to present the same noise at the same level but out of phase with the original. Not sure how damaged ears would respond to this approach.

George

 

[PrimeCyclist]

No I have never tried noise cancellation headphones.

I think he meant the type of active ear protectors that have an external microphone and only "play back" safe sounds (<80db), while not playing anything louder.

So you hear everything normally and when the gunshots come then you hear them as through normal, dumb ear protectors.

I'm an avid shooter myself, although only pistol calibers due to the price, and while 22s are perfectly fine through my Peltor Shooter earpro, I prefer active plugs underneath when shooting 9s.

 

[rifleman1956]

I do Cowboy Action Shooting and USPSA, and I wear double hearing protection, which keeps me fine. I have had tinnitus for 25 years, and it got worse after the second COVID shot.

I haven't done Cowboy Action Shooting in a while because you have to use a shotgun, and that is loud. USPSA is just a 9mm, so it is not as bad. Driving my truck can actually be louder.

But that is just me.

 

[GeorgeLG]

Something to consider: if you are going to wear ear defenders, they need to be one of the more substantial models with higher ratings. That said, I have found over the years that the highest NRR and the physically largest version is not always the best. I think this has to do with resonant frequencies, so it depends on what kind of noise you are suppressing.

For most situations, I no longer use the highest-rated models. I have standardized on the yellow 3M Optime 98, especially for power tools. In other words, you will need to experiment to find what works best for you.

George