War in Ukraine — Megathread

Yawn... petty American politics and tribalism rearing its ugly head here. This kind of division and distrust is exactly what Putin and the Kremlin love btw.

You missed the point. Anytime we come up with policy proposals that attempts to improve quality of life for middle and low working class Americans, it’s always met with opposition. Whether it’s student loan relief, universal healthcare, or UBI, there’s always some kind of resistance. But now we have people saying we should be using this money that’s being sent to Ukraine to help Americans instead. Hypocritical to the max.

It’s good to see that we at least have bipartisanship support (in both chambers) for Ukraine and assisting them against evil.

You might want to look at how much money the US spends on the military per year (regardless if there’s any ongoing conflict), and how much of it actually gets used. Also, the US military-industrial complex has barely spun up for the Ukraine war. So far, it's mainly been just spares and near end of life equipment and supplies that are being sent. This ‘at the expense of the American taxpayer’ talking point is a weak argument especially in the midst of this aggressive invasion. The US has always been the single biggest military spender in the world year after year.

@Lane, there’s manipulation (in support of Russia) happening on both ideological extremes I’m afraid. It’s not only MAGA Republicans being manipulated and having their confirmation biases confirmed by Russian propaganda, but also extreme leftists, tankies, and anti western dipshits as well. Tankies straight up love anyone who is in opposition to US military interests. They will find any reason to support other nation's aggression if it makes us uncomfortable, because to them they believe America is the greatest evil in the world. They have a habit of supporting authoritative regimes associated with Marxism-Leninism or Maoism.

I saw it play out in the earlier parts of the war on social media from many far left groups. First it was "it's inevitable, Ukraine should quit", then it was "but Ukraine have a Nazi inspired patch’, implying justification for war. Last I recalled, now it seems to be a mixture of whataboutism (to the surprise of no one) and ‘capitulation to nuclear brinkmanship’. The goal posts kept moving.

But not to take away from your point @Lane because you’re also correct. MAGA people are very gullible and eat up Russian propaganda whole. Because of the disinformation campaigns being constantly run on the country (by the likes of Paul Manafort and Tucker Carlson), many MAGA Republicans will view Ukraine with disdain. The "Hunter Biden corruption’ comes to mind or Ukraine being a "Hotbed of Nazis" too. I’ve also seen far-right nut cases who believe the aid we give is not actually aid, but is instead being laundered by Zelensky and being sent back to the Democrat’s bank accounts in the form of campaign donations and bribes. No, I’m not joking.

Then you have those conservatives who are always complaining about funding. They are pissed that "their tax dollars" are being used to provide aid to Ukraine and they believe that the aid is directly contributing to inflation which is obviously not true because that’s not how inflation works.

There has been an ongoing effort from Tucker Carlson and other propaganda machines to turn the tide of public opinion against Ukraine but fortunately it's not working. Older neoconservative types (who are increasingly winning out) are actually pro Ukraine and recognize it's good foreign policy to send Ukraine aid.

 

Hi @ZFire -- I guess I should have known that a certain portion of left oriented people -- mostly military hating I presume -- might also be against aid to Ukraine. -- Your last (quoted) sentence was a bit sobering for me; it appears I'm in agreement with part of the mindset of older neoconservative types. Yikes!!! :eek _O

Hi @dan -- You got that right on "half measures". Although it may be a bit generous--it's actually less than half measures in my mind. I think the West should be giving Ukraine 10x the amount of assistance, and it would still be a bargain. When are we going to quit letting Putin bluff his way with the West? Been going on for years.

 

People who make $120,000 a year should not receive aid to pay for their extravagant college loans. I am glad that Biden's promise was struck down. He also promised to end COVID-19, and chalked up 600,000+ more deaths in the first 18 months of his administration.

We need a strong military and yes, we probably spend too much, but we do not need to support an unwinnable, suicidally deadly war in Ukraine. We have sent them over 22 billion, that's billions more than all of Europe has sent, combined. We should not have sent more than 10 billion, as Europe has 746.4 million people, more than twice the population of the United States.

 

Yeah I know, it pains me to say it too. In retrospect, neocons like John McCain (RIP) and Mitt Romney were actually right about Russia a decade ago. Obama’s foreign policy on Russia especially during Crimea was very weak.

Here’s a short clip from 8 years ago with former Senator John McCain (RIP). He was absolutely spot on about Russia and Putin.

Putin is 'rebuilding Russian empire'...

 

I was impressed by the following interview with the Prime Minister of Finland. She has a very clear eyed view of the situation in Ukraine, and the existential threat posed by Russia to any number of its smaller neighbors. I started the video where she's asked about the Ukraine situation, and she articulates how it affects Finland's thinking in many ways.

Some might say she talks like somewhat of a "hawk", but it seems to me her words are almost certainly an accurate reflection of the sense of determination of the people of Finland, who overwhelmingly support joining NATO after seeing Ukraine attacked by Russia. She comes across as pragmatic, smart, intelligent, articulate, and very cognizant of the geopolitcal history and how it is playing out in current time.

Makes me think Europe (and the world for that matter) might be better off with more women leaders. The whole interview is over half hour long, but if you watch only around 6 minutes, you will get a good idea of her thoughts on both Ukrainian and Finnish security (and European security as well).

BTW, it seems clear that Finland and Sweden joining NATO is a much bigger deal than the prospect of Ukraine joining NATO ever was (just look at the geography on a map). And yet Putin has been mostly mum on them joining NATO. Could it be the prospect of Ukraine joining NATO was only used as a pretext for an old-fashioned landgrab by a larger power against a smaller power?

A Conversation with Sanna Marin, Prime Minister of Finland | Davos 2023

 

The Biden Administration is going to send 2.5 billion more to Ukraine. I'd like to know how much of that is going into the pockets of their leaders and the wealthy. We cannot afford to keep doing this. Ukraine should sit down and negotiate with Russia, now.

US will send Stryker combat vehicles to Ukraine for first time as part of $2.5 billion security package

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/19/politics/ukraine-aid-package-biden-administration/index.html

 

The US is "supporting" the war in Ukraine because the US is making a TON OF MONEY on oil and gas exports to Europe, at hefty prices. As for the "money spent" in weapons, that's US taxpayer paying again to the US weapon industry, another turn of the screw.

The biggest losers here are obviously Ukraine and the EU as a collateral damage. The EU should change its stance towards Russian energy and just buy the cheapest energy avaible (or someone else, like India will do it), instead of shooting itself on the feet.

 

The US is making a ton of money out of this war, while everyone else is doing way worse. That's why Biden called the war in advance. I think this may be one of the rare examples when a third country not involved in a conflict (the US) calls a war before it happens.

Remember the US was saying "there is going to be war in Ukraine" like a month or two before it actually happened. And no one finds this suspicious haha. It's like the US provoked or instigated the war for its own economic benefit!

 

In 2022, the Biden administration and the U.S. Congress directed nearly $50 billion in assistance to Ukraine, with billions more added in 2023 and no end in sight.

How much longer is this going to keep happening, will it be until we have given our entire United States Treasury to this country, and we are completely bankrupt?

This is insanity.

 

I have to say @Juan, you sometimes make points I agree with. But when you make comments like the above, you lose almost all credibility. The U.S. is not making a "ton of money" from this war and did not provoke or instigate this war, even though they accurately predicted it.

It was brought on by one small and insecure man's madness, vanity, delusions, and narcissism--a man whose cruelty knows almost no bounds. It appears Sanna Marin, Prime Minister of Finland, whose interview I provided a link to in my above post, would wholeheartedly agree. You might want to take a look. While you're at it, take a look at the insightful John McCain interview posted by @ZFire.

 

My take on this is that Zelensky was conned to believe he would get into NATO, the EU, and closer to the US... So someone must have made Zelensky believe that. Who met with Zelensky to provoke that sort of delusion?

Putin did not like that, as he has seen NATO expand eastbound closer and closer to Russia's frontier.

Lithuania also made statements against China to pave the way to get US money poured into that little country. No one knows how that will unravel in the long term, but for now China stopped importing materials from Lithuania or that are sourced in Lithuania, so those Lithuanian politicians screwed up big time as their country's exports will be disconnected from "the global factory"...

Then we have the ambivalent stance of the German government. Germany, being heavily dependent on cheap energy and formerly a close business partner of Russia, now has to reconcile what others demand (sending weapons, tanks etc to Ukraine) and its own economic interests... a tough choice.

Who are the winners in this situation? And by winners we cannot think only in terms "they are doing better than before the war erupted" but rather "they are doing better, in relative terms, than other countries", this is, the economy is less damaged, or population is weathering the inflation storm better, or their public finances can bear another deep economic shock... and those countries are certainly not in the EU.

 

I don't know why you insist on using words such as "someone must have made Zelensky believe that". It bears little resemblance to the entire country of Ukraine (for years) wanting closer ties with Europe and the West, militarily, economically, and culturally, and moving outside the sphere of Russian meddling in their country. Zelensky was only following the wishes of Ukrainians in pursuing those goals.

Nowhere in you above post to lay the blame for this cruel and disastrous war on the single man who's responsible for it. Why is that? You seem to have a resolve to in some way or another blame everything on the wicked West, who somehow manipulated Zelensky, is responsible for making Putin invade Ukraine. It makes no sense to me whatsoever, and is totally opposite of what we're seeing transpiring before our very eyes.

 

Sometimes the best option is not what everyone wants. In Spain for instance the country is going worse and worse because everyone wants to live really well, and receive a lot of state aid for everything, so the country is just issuing debt like there's no tomorrow... is this sustainable in the long run? I don't know...

In Ukraine people may want to be part of the EU but the EU does not need to expand anymore, and having this bunch of different economies artificially put together, having living standards that differ widely from one country to another, having an European parliament with limited powers, and lack of integration in many fields and important matters... all this coupled with a common currency... is often a problem.

Turkey also wants to get in the EU, and I don't think that's going to happen.

So one thing is what people desire and other what can be attained. In this sense I don't know if Zelensky is doing the best for Ukrainian people... as so many people are dying and the war looks like is going to last for years. Is this the best option?

Neither the EU nor the US have offered to provide Ukraine with tanks. Why? The reason is this could be seen by Russia as a direct aggression by countries that are not direct part in the conflict. And Russia is after all a nuclear power.. so specially the EU must act carefully, and Germany's stance can be understood.

At the end of the day maybe a negotiated solution is the best option, but for now the parties to a potential agreement stand way apart, and this does not seem feasible. In the meantime, people are dying in this nonsense.

 

UK is sending Challenger tanks... I guess their little Island is toast... Oh well, nice knowing y'all!

Keep Calm and Carry On, the end comes quick lol.

 

For the UK, the Ukraine war is secondary, when they are dealing with tax evasion by members of their government

The press reported Rishi Sunak was tax domiciled outside the UK while he was a member of the government and now the chap "leads" the country

 

It seems Spain is not the only country doing nothing against oligarchs, nothing to seize their properties or freeze their assets... Actually, an FBI agent was working for one of those oligarchs:

Former FBI agent charged with violating sanctions by working for Deripaska

 

The world is sending weapons to Ukraine and the plain truth is no one really knows where those weapons end up...

Live news: Top Ukrainian officials quit as Zelenskyy tackles corruption scandals

 

Black market.

Keep your eye on the WEF. This is the real threat to all of us.

 

The world has to keep a better tracking on the weapons sent to Ukraine, taking into account the amount of corruption there...

‘No return to the past’: the man leading Ukraine’s fightback against corruption | Ukraine | The Guardian

"In 2021, Transparency International ranked Ukraine as the second most corrupt country in Europe, behind only Russia, a position Novikov set out to turn around, only to find his task made significantly harder by COVID and Vladimir Putin".

 

The journalist is spot on when pointing out that the pictures look a lot like "where's Yevgeny?". Maybe he's a fan of Where's Wally books...

Yevgeny Prigozhin: the hotdog seller who rose to the top of Putin’s war machine | Russia | The Guardian

This is interesting too, and shows that law firms in London and the US have actively helped oligarchs to avoid sanctions and to keep criticism at bay. In the process, lawyers made a ton of money:

Wagner Inc: a Russian warlord and his lawyers | Financial Times (ft.com)

 

The US called the war in Ukraine a few months in advance. It is weird that a third country can "predict" war so accurately.

Now they are predicting "conflict" in China years ahead.

Top US air force general predicts China conflict in 2025

Maybe those American generals can give us the next winning number for the Powerball Lottery too...

 

On the one hand I feel for the innocent children and want them to be extradited out the country safely but after that I could care less what these monsters do to one another, both Ukraine & Russia are flooded with Nazis, and that's not an opinion either


If they want to take each other out, so be it, the less evil people in the world, the better. I'm tired of these stupid wars. Dying for what. Someone needs to take care of Putin and end this crap already.

 

There are always people profiteering from war.

Goldman transferred privately held Russian assets to former employees

Goldman has transferred its ownership stakes in Russian recruitment firm HeadHunter and Cian, a property listing website, to Maxim Klimov and Anton Schreider, according to a person familiar with the matter.

Klimov and Schreider were managing directors for Goldman in Russia until they left the US bank in July last year. The exact terms of the transaction could not be learned but it was done at a discounted price, the person said.

Many western companies, including McDonald’s, McKinskey, the Big Four accountants and several white-shoe law firms, have divested their Russian assets through buyouts to local management.​

 

It’s far from ‘weird’. Firstly, Ukraine and Russia have been in conflict since 2014. The writing was on the wall if you were paying attention.

Secondly, the US is the only country that spends billions on intelligence gathering (Human intelligence, Signals Intelligence, etc) and optical recon satellites to monitor the actions of its adversaries. And as a result, the US were the first ones to detect (through real time satellite imagery) unusual mass military buildup and presence near Russo-Ukrainian borders. The White House also released these Intelligence findings of Putin’s invasion plans to the public and to Western allies, hoping this could preempt an invasion. The US were sounding the alarms based on these intelligence findings, but it was mostly dismissed by Western allies (and even Russia lol).

 

after I reread what I wrote, I can see how confusing I sound. I just get really passionate when it comes to stupid unnecessary stuff.

what I really meant in terms of people dying was I don't care for none of the soldiers or countrymen dying, on either sides, who are Nazis. I want ALL bigots who crave violence onto others to get what they are asking for. I don't care if you're defending your country, or whatever, if you're sick in the head, and want destruction onto others, then you should die too. Before this war started, I was learning about Ukrainian history and saw some disturbing stuff.

I just don't want their politics dragging other countries into this B.S. but then you got to think, if Russia did win, what would that mean for the innocent women and children of Ukraine? What would they be subjected to? Then you'll have always have rebels etc. Basically in my fairy tale ending all the evil people on both sides have killed each other and the good folks from both countries who survive change the entire country structure and for the better. Oh and Putin passes away from a stroke, and a nicer man takes his place... not realistic but one can hope.

Basically in 2023 the only thing Russia and Ukraine should be fighting over is who can cure cancer or tinnitus first.

 

Now Joe Biden says he will NOT send F16 fighters to Ukraine.

Are Lockheed Martin lobbyists losing their mojo?

Or is the US fearing the Russian nuclear button actually works?

 

Rape, torture, and murder. It’s already been happening.

Whatever country you look in, small pockets of ultra right wing Nazis’ exist, so I’m not sure why you want to single out Ukraine. And in the context of this war, when people bring up the Azov battalion, they play right into Putin's propaganda. The Azov battalion consists of 900-2500 troops (less than 900 now) in a country with 44 million people. Does a small group of Nazi mercenaries make a government or a nation Nazis? Not a chance.

That's what makes the argument against Azov so blatandtly pro-Russian (looking at you @Joey72). It diminishes the real atrocity that's actually happening to attack Ukraine over something trite and justify their suffering with it.

A few Nazis vs. an entire army demolishing civilians and their homes.

Insurgency was always in the cards for Ukraine. As a matter of fact, many ‘experts’ believed that’s how the invasion was going to play out from the start. No one predicted how valiant and formidable Ukrainian forces would be. There’s also Russian military ineptitude that needs to be factored in too.

 

People keep dying in wars so the war mongers can keep getting richer.

 

It never was about helping the people of Ukraine. The US and NATO are using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia to get rid of Putin. Putin has showed massive restraint but he’s backed into a corner.

 

Saying a few Nazis is like your doctor telling you that you have a few cancer tumors. You probably don’t believe the concentration camps happened. The Ukraine forces have done their own atrocities, pal. It happens in war on both sides. I was there so I know. Russia hasn’t even begun to fight, pal.

By the way, you need to address me directly if you want to spew your propaganda.