Went to a Birthday Party Tonight — Hoping for the Best!

What reference point are you using for your ratings?

 

Read the title of this thread.

Ok, you have a point. Sorry I didn't understand earlier why you quoted that post.

I stand by that old post, and you are right - this is relevant. In both cases, people might not be aware of the danger they put themselves in. Once you are aware of the danger and you think that the cost in terms of the risk justifies the benefit, then by all means you should go ahead and take the risk.

My dad was an engineer, and I remember him mentioning that materials science is as hardcore as it got for him during his years at the university.

How was I supposed to react to him telling me that I don't know about the scientific method?

As I pointed out earlier, if we assign an infinite cost to the outcome of a lifetime of suffering, showing that something has a nonzero probability of having an infinite cost implies that a rational person won't do that action. Censored data interferes with our ability to get a good estimate of the true probability, but it can still be used to determine whether the probability is nonzero.

 

Well this is the problem with tinnitus, isn't it? It's all subjective.

All I can tell you is this:

1 =~ can hear it if I listen carefully, but generally can ignore it
2 =~ can hear it easily, but it masks fairly well with normal types of ambient noise
3 =~ very noticeable, getting pretty distracting, can be masked but only with strategic sounds
4 =~ loud, intrusive, difficult to deal with, can be partially masked with strategic sounds, but some volume is necessary
5 =~ debilitating, difficult to concentrate, time to fetal position on the couch
6-10: have never rated anything above a 5, but have left room on the scale with the assumption that it could get worse than I've yet experienced.

 

Did you spike from the event?

 

Damn! Mine is pretty bad then. Or at least i perceive it that way.

 

I did. Matt has had tinnitus for several years, is testing his luck in noise, and is informing us in a straightforward no-nonsense fashion how he's getting on. He's not your average new distressed sufferer. But they may well be reading along or bump on this thread later.

 

Daily update (don't worry all, I won't keep posting daily updates forever, but I do want to at least continue through to the end of this spike):

Today has been much better than yesterday. Pitch remains a bit elevated, but volume is back down to normal again. Specifically:

Left ear: 2/10 (pitch remains up a notch)
Right ear: 1/10 (pitch is varying; sometimes up a notch)
Head: 2/10 (pitch remains up one, sometimes two, notches; but volume is back down)

So, I'm now 4 days out from my birthday party, and things have gone as follows:

Day 1: moderate elevation of volume and pitch
Day 2: complete return to baseline, until 6pm when things picked back up
Day 3: brutal - significant elevation in both pitch and volume in left ear and head
Day 4: return to moderation: volume back to baseline, pitch remains moderately elevated

I can't decide if I should consider it good or bad that after 4 days I'm *almost* back to baseline? Guess it depends if one considers the glass half full or half empty. Luckily I'm a half full kinda guy (usually).

 

Context is important. You ignored the context of my posts, and this is why you ended up feeling this way.

 

If someone were to boast about, say, speeding and/or drinking and driving and being ok afterwards, would you complain about someone responding to them and sounding cold and even rude?

 

You of all people Matt with your training know better than to compare 4 days after an 'event' relative to your 'baseline'.

If you wanted a better indicator if your 'event' had any true effect on your 'baseline'...then you compare the four days you note to an entire year of data...not to what you believe is a baseline of what your tinnitus is...presuming that any baseline...certainly any baseline I have with my tinnitus is highly variable, day to day, week to week or even month to month.

My opinion, processing all the things you have written including the hearing protection steps you took, that the party had zero effect on your tinnitus and any observance of deviation is normal variation in your tinniuts.

The sound exposure you got at that party was well within the bounds of the damage to your hearing you report and your typical tinnitus levels you quantify.

As another single value added data point, a few months back, I attended a much louder wedding where the sound levels were too high near the dance floor and I found myself outside the building a bit of the time because it was uncomfortable to my ears. I used foam hearing protection. No long term affect on my tinnitus. My personal view is staying below 70 db adjusted with hearing protection has zero effect on hearing provided duration isn't too long.

My opinion of course.

A last comment. People on this forum always blame sound as the culprit for their tinnitus and variation. Sound is only one contributor to a plethora of reasons tinnitus levels change even hour to hour.

A last note...with even a bit of comedy. I admit to giggling reading all the scientists here...we all have a lot of education and technical training which forms our beliefs buttressed with personal experience, but all the people making an appeal for Bill to change his views is honestly pretty comical. He will never change his position. He believes his leg should always be in a cast after contracting tendonitis. Of course he will always walk with a limp moving forward because the leg over protected will never fully recover. You aren't going to change this mindset any more than you are Michael Leigh about headphones. People at the end of the day are given data and process that data differently.

I teach and I have some beliefs about what separates people. One of my famous quips is, people quit before they get good which is prevalent in many walks. But its pretty undeniable that people are largely separated in life by the way they process it. Lets take golfers....why there are scratch golfers and why there are 18 handicappers that play for many years.
When I was a young boy I became personal friends with my golf teacher. He knew I was on the studious side and pretty serious student of the game and golf swing mechanics and he took me under his wing which helped my self esteem because this man who I admired for who he was and his skill, took a liking to me and maybe say a little bit of him in me. We used to have long discussions about golf swing mechanics which is a matter of philosophy and physiology and people make their 'choice' on how to swing a club based upon a confluence of each. If you really get into the weeds, to become a scratch player takes a lot of analysis and introspection....and make choices. Swing a club is a choice. His golf swing was as elegant as he was as a person. I remember one time he said, see that guy over there? He said, he has been taking lessons from me for many years. He is no good. Look at his swing. He will never be any good. He knows it all. It was the wisdom of my teacher that made him such a great player and teacher. The other guy...not so much.

 

What do we have? linearb said it best. To paraphrase... discourse of divergent opinion for the simple reason there is no cure, therefore there can be no agreement.

Never let the sound we don't approve of ever drown out the best music in the universe.

A perfect symphony:

Ed Sheeran - Perfect Symphony (with Andrea...

 

With respect John, I think you're being a bit argumentative for no real reason. I mean, yes, having a year or more worth of data to fall back on would be glorious. But I don't imagine you're actually suggesting that one not try to identify or interpret patterns until and unless they have that amount of data on hand? Unless that is what you're saying, then I'm not really sure to what end you're saying it.

But regardless of whether it's argumentative, it's also quite wrong.

First: It is absolutely not true that you can't interpret smaller batches of data. You simply have to recognize and understand the limits on reliability and validity that come with small batch analysis. Yes, those limits can sometimes lead to false conclusions - but no scientist would argue that they shouldn't be considered.

Second: While I don't have one year of data to form a baseline, I do have four months of data to do so. And indeed I have. You can look at graphs of the data in the attached files, if you're interested. Moreover, if you look at them, you'll note that my "baseline" levels were not calculated as the T pitch/volume of the day preceding my party, but rather the mean of the preceding four months. It's not a year, granted; but I feel it should meet most people's criteria for validity.

Given that the baseline is in fact a true and fairly valid baseline, my interpretation of the last four days is: for 3.5 of those 4 days my T volume AND pitch were both above the mean of the last 4 months. Were I to consider volume and pitch as separate data streams, that would mean that 7 out of 8 of my measurements were above the 4 month mean. I haven't run formal analyses on this data, because the small batch makes statistical significance somewhat moot - but I'd be willing to wager that this pattern is actually approaching significance, even with the severely reduced power inherent in the small batch.

You don't have to agree with this, but it's unclear why you'd jump on the validity of my efforts so blindly.

Frankly John, your opinion about my subjective tinnitus experiences is completely irrelevant. Forgive the harsh tone, but I want to point out that what you're doing (beyond choosing your "opinion" over my empirical data) is questioning of my own bodily responses. This is very different than what we generally question on this board. We argue about theory, we argue about how much noise exposure we should have, we argue about a lot of things. These are good, often productive debates. But questioning my own subjective experiences? I've not an awful lot of patience for that. Indeed, assuming you adhere to the belief that we are all the best judge of our own symptoms, it's unclear why/how you would do this. That I'm showing actual *data* contrary to your opinion just makes it that much less understandable.

I generally appreciate your insights; you're a smart guy and we agree on a lot. But questioning my own subjective experiences seems a losing proposition.

 

First, I am not trying to be argumentative. I merely stated what I believe and btw still believe it. There is no baseline. Baseline in an integration of all the data...not four data points. Baseline is a linear regression of the data....an aggregate. Snapshot in time ergo 4 days means nothing...or very little. You have had 5 years of data.

Not much more to say. I could dissect each of your points. I don't see the point in it really.

I will say, I am not sure why I am on this forum. I see a lot of discord and I believe linearb explained why.
I am not sure there is benefit to debating any sort of causation or optimal method of coping with tinnitus based upon all the disagreement and divergent views. As silly as demonization of headphone use. People create their own reality. It is almost like debating religion...or if there is a god...lol.

I believe some of the conversation about benzos and AD's to be beneficial even though there is quite profound disagreement there as well.

I can say. We have stated our respective views. Perhaps we agree that there is no universal truth, because the underlying mechanism to tinnitus isn't fully understood...or maybe, it isn't fully understood which leaves us pretty much nowhere.

I do agree Matt you did the right thing by going to the party. I did the same thing I mentioned going to the wedding. Others may not have gone. Others with tinnitus go to much louder venues. Some hide under the bed.

And hence the diversity in life.

 

I don't understand this. That's not me being argumentative - I teach statistics, and I literally don't understand this.

"Baseline is an integration of all the data...not four data points."
This is correct - a baseline is (or at least should be) an integration of all [relevant] data. But where did four data points come from? I said I had 4 months of data. Did you think that meant one data point per month?

"Baseline is a linear regression of the data". This is nonsensical. Linear regression is a statistical process which can identify potential [linear] relationships between two or more continuous variables. Through linear regression, one can obtain a best fit line that serves as an indication of the closest approximation of this relationship. But since I only have one continuous variable (tinnitus volume/pitch), regression can't help me here (since you need two variables to find a linear relationship between them). But regardless of all of that statistical mumbo jumbo: it has nothing to do with the calculation of baselines.

"There is no such thing as baseline." As you subsequently provided two, albeit incorrect, definitions of baseline, I'll give the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't mean this one.

"You have five years of data."
Wha?? Whatchoo talkin about Willis??

All the power to you. You may even be right. Though I would still argue that trying to determine the cause of my tinnitus, from your chair, would seem a difficult endeavor.

 

Honestly, I should have paid closer attention. My bad. And if you teach statistics, you could school me on it.
You did the analysis. 4 months should be enough.
5 years of data. According your title you contracted tinnitus in 2015. That's five years I believe. Do you remember the early days? I do. I remember every step of the way.

Matt, can you put a bow on it for us? Do you believe attending the party:
1. made your tinnitus worse
2. made your tinnitus better
3. made no difference to your tinnitus.

By merely the construct of your experiment aka going to the party with protection, my vote without looking at the data is...it should have made no difference. It made no difference to me in almost a year of attending one of the loudest weddings I can recall.

That said, people's tinnitus changes all the time. For me, sound exposure has nothing to do with it....but I am pretty careful about not subjecting myself to loud sound. I couldn't even try to correlate my tinnitus to a number value. It changes hourly.

 

Goodness, that's weird!

No, I've only been afflicted since June this year. Four and a half months ago. Been collecting data ever since!

I wonder if I can get that info changed? @Markku? Any chance?

 

You can change it under the personal details of your account settings menu

 

Also, thanks for backing off John - it takes some courage to do that.

Normally I wouldn't get so upset, but I've literally been collecting data since day 1 (okay, week 2), which is all I can do. To have you so casually, briskly (and largely incorrectly) criticize my methods, tell me I should know better, and suggest it's all a figment of my wild statistical imagination, all in one fell swoop. Well...it certainly didn't seem very sporting, or productive.

 

Thanks!

Just checked: my personal details *do* say June 2019. But in the spot John looked it says 06/15. John (understandably) interpreted this as June 2015, but it actually was June 15th.

Anyway, this is all too far down this rabbit hole. I'm 4+ months in - now everyone knows!

 

Honestly Matt, I displayed no courage. I never backed off. I was never trying to argue in the pejorative sense. I really am completely unemotional about what is written here. I was sharing what I believed....which didn't line up with what you wrote. I don't have any animus toward you. I like and respect you as I do the vast majority here. Our education is similar and we share the same issue we are discussing. You and I have had many exchanges. I thought we were well beyond any pettiness.

You may find this difficult to believe or not, I don't really care who is right. Its not unlike playing golf I mentioned. Always best to check ego at the door. If there are people here than know more than me, I would like to know what they know. I find positing my thoughts many times moves the conversation closer to the truth if there is truth to be found. This is done by trial and error. The road to the truth I often write about is discovered by iteration. My belief.

Can you give us a short summary of your interpretation of the data? I do want to test my belief... that the party made no difference as was the case in the loud party I attended several months back which btw, I couldn't stand the noise level because it was too high and I tried to move as far away from the sound source as possible. I still have minor hyperacusis...my hyperacusis has actually improved since that time. When I first contracted tinnitus, setting a dinner plate on my granite kitchen counter top would literally make my ears hurt. No longer. Much better but not perfect. Quite certain this threshold of 'healing' from tinnitus onset aka 'brain event' that precipitated tinnitus is due to 'moderate' sound exposure. Not unlike nursing a knee with tendonitis I used as an analogy back to full strength...incremental exposure...tolerance based upon injury level which improves with time...hopefully with 'proper' exposure.


- Tinnitus start date:

- Party date:

- A 'qualitative' description of how your tinnitus has changed from the beginning to current day based upon your quantitative analysis of your data collected?..whatever quantitative methods based upon your statistical background you use to interpret the data.


Reason for my position on this is because of the respect I have for my Audiologist who suggests more sound exposure aka moving toward 'typical' daily sound exposure as a complement to improved hearing and decreased hyperacusis...as opposed to protectionist hearing or...too much aka loud sound exposure. This seems to agree with my personal experience as I believe my sound tolerance has improved from the early days when sound exposure made me more anxious. Finding goldilocks.

I am sorry I misunderstood your data. I have a lot of fault in that in spite of being confused by your title start date of contracting tinnitus. I thought you had been at this for a long time. Four years for me. I should have read more closely. I am guilty sometimes of skimming people's posts. I basically speed read the forum and that many times doesn't do justice to the nuance of data.

 

I don't believe I have any data, yet, that can speak to your hypothesis John. Yours is a long-term hypothesis that requires a longitudinal design and the consideration of myriad other variables. It's a good question, an important question - but not one that my little bit of data can yet tackle. My question was much smaller and much more easily digested: would I experience a spike, and would it go away? Trying to extrapolate further at this point would be speaking beyond the data.

 

Well then you are speaking well over the head of the community here in terms of making any sort of cogent point.
If you do have a purpose for your thread, it escapes me....unless you plan to have this thread be an ongoing update of your tinnitus based upon your effort to quantify it which IMO strains credulity....how to put a magnitude to tinnitus loudness...because your scale is even relative to yourself and highly subjective aka qualitative.

I know you come for the world of science, but maybe you could explain any point you are trying to make. I tried to get you to summarize it, but doesn't seem like you have. I have actually asked you now twice. No argument, just my perception. This is a major jag in the convoluted road to the truth I spoke of. Why even mention the party and any data?

 

Not for you, clearly.

 

Hey Matt, I wanted you to know I went grocery shopping the other day. I am collecting data on my exertion and wonder how it will affect my tinnitus. Details are a little fuzzy and a bit too early to judge.
Honestly, I was in a bit of philosophical bind. Options were...risk having my tinnitus grow worse or starve to death.

I am not really prepared to discuss details further with any specificity because this may even require common sense. Hope you understand and sorry to waste band width but in case you ask. I may go canoeing at some point as well. I will be sure to report that outing as well...or if I put gas in my car. I am worried about large trucks being at the gas station when I am there.

 

Let it go John. Really. It's embarrassing.

 

Yes. Exactly. This was the point.

On the one hand, it's a bit self-centered of me to post my day-by-day progress - clearly some (@John Mahan) have no time for such drivel. But I know that when *I* came to the board, I had a million questions about whether I could, or could not sustain a normal lifestyle, how much noise was too much noise, whether I could attend social gatherings, etc. There are a lot of anecdotes around, but not a lot of good, clear evidence of how tinnitus sufferers deal with noise. So while a bit self-centered, I felt it may be a service to future sufferers.

Of course at this point we have 100 posts on the thread that have gone off in about 8 different directions. But it was a productive thread overall, for those with the patience to read through it (I think).

(Only correction: I'm only 4 months in, not several years).

 

Don't be embarrassed bro. I don't want to disparage your thread or 'study' because I did make some great points along the way to provide broader perspective.

Did you eat jalapeño's at the party? Please know, for some this can cause a reaction and elevate tinnitus. Of course this would detract from the myth that sound level is the be all to tinnitus level.

Speaking of statistical methods, maybe you turn your party into a control experiment and use Taguchi methods?
There could for example be an interaction between sound level, room temperature, humidity and even throw in barometric pressure and alcohol consumption. Relative contribution of each control factor should shake out what's meaningful with the discipline of Taguchi.

Speaking of other meaningful experiments, there maybe a subtle difference between canoeing and kayaking but I believe it maybe beneficial to study it and chart tinnitus thereafter. For an undisclosed period of time until the data set has bonafide veracity. What do you think? A year? A decade? Oh darn. Too much time elapse and that pesky fire truck racing by may spoil the party forgive the metaphor. I wonder what time of day I should pull my quantitative aka subjective numerical assignment of tinnitus level out of my hat? What do you think? Morning on Monday, but afternoon on Tuesday. How about evening on Wednesday?

When I embark on all my studies I hope you provide some boundary conditions to make the experiment meaningful. I don't expect much and was hoping to learn more but maybe details will slip out unexpectedly...lol.

 

Okay, final progress update (unless something funky happens that I think needs to be mentioned).

Today's been mostly normal - I'd say volume and pitch are both pretty much at baseline (ie. my average volume), and so I'd say I'm largely "recovered" from my event on the weekend.

That said, I've only had one half day in the past 6 that were below my average pitch/volume, and even now I'd say that I'm just at the average. And what that means is that I definitely haven't improved over the course of the last week. That's relevant, because in general I was seeing a slowwwww downward trajectory to my volume (pitch was staying the same). That trajectory may well begin dropping again, but this week ended up flat, or somewhat elevated. So I think it's safe to say that I was affected by the event. Likely not in a terrible or long-term way - but affected nonetheless.

Would I go again if the opportunity presented itself (which it obviously will at some point)?

Probably, yes. I really am a half-glass full kind of guy, I don't have anxiety/depression concerns, and while my tinnitus is annoying as F, I'm still coping well, enjoying life, etc. I'm also a really social being, and avoiding anything with noise would likely upset me as much as the tinnitus does. But, of course, if I started to notice my tinnitus actually increasing in a permanent way, I'd have to take stock.

Would I go if I wasn't that kind of guy? If I did suffer from anxiety/depression? If I wasn't coping well? ...probably not. While I do strongly adhere to the idea that a gradual reintegration of sound into one's life will be beneficial, I think that new sufferers who are struggling should likely take their time. I'm at 4 months right now, and this event still affected me. So...I dunno...I guess I'd suggest waiting at least 6 before you really start trying to reintegrate sound back in (obviously this is a terribly approximate piece of advice...but it's better than the almost zero advice you get from doctors and ENTs).

Okay, over/out. Sorry to those I bored; your welcome to those I helped. Yadda yadda.

 

Your humour aside, I'm sorry to see that you believe that tinnitus is so random and unsolvable that it is beyond us, that attempts to understand it, to track it, to even describe it, are futile. That's a hard psychological state to manage, I would imagine. Perhaps that's why you resort to humor, and sarcasm, and arrogance.

I'm still new to the game, and don't yet share your opinion. I believe there remains lots that can be done. And as it happens I'm well-trained, and in a position, to potentially move the needle. Why you would want to belittle those efforts - any efforts - to try to learn more about our disorder, is difficult to understand.

 

Those you have helped? That's rich...lol.
When you assign pitch values, do you use a tuning fork for reference? Is your make believe scale linear or logarithmic as with perception of tinnitus dB level? How about interaction between tinnitus level biasing perception of pitch? Could you find middle C on a piano unchaperoned? Would you consider this in technical parlance to be a SWAG? Are you a dart player?...lol.

Final update tease: Proof there is a god.