Why Tinnitus Intensity Can Change After Sleep?

Discussion in 'Support' started by Thongjy, Feb 5, 2015.

tinnitus forum
    1. Thongjy
      Balanced

      Thongjy Member

      Location:
      Singapore
      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unsure
      Does anyone know the science between why after sleep t intensity can change and also WHY tinnitus normally onset in the morning after a sleep?

      What is happening and link between sleep and t intensity and onset?
       
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    2. Thongjy
      Balanced

      Thongjy Member

      Location:
      Singapore
      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unsure
      Anyone?
       
    3. Grinding teeth while a sleep can make a difference, at least in my case. The mornings when i have soreness in the jaw T is mostly higher.
       
    4. Thongjy
      Balanced

      Thongjy Member

      Location:
      Singapore
      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unsure
      Anyone?
       
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    5. Asian

      Asian Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      4 weeks
      Not sure why this happens but it maybe your NECK. Neck muscles can contribute to your already present T believe it or not. While sleeping on a single side for a couple of hours the neck muscles become tight and stressed. This can increase the loudness in some cases, at least in mine it does.

      I had an ultrasound therapy on neck muscles yesterday and my T remained unusually quiet throughout the night because the muscles were relaxed! These large group of muscles are directly connected to your head and cause many symptoms like fullness in ears, migraine headaches, tinnitus, etc.

      Select a pillow to give a good support to your neck and don't keep it inclined or declined while sleeping. Regularly massage your neck and keep those muscles relaxed. Ask a physiotherapist to teach you some good techniques like stretching , icing , using heat pads , etc. Also taking hot bath before bed helps relax the muscles

      Apart from this there indeed is some connection between sleep and T which nobody has understood till now. You can try the above method and see if it helps you . good luck
       
    6. Mark McDill
      Curious

      Mark McDill Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Papillion, NE
      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Likely stress, anxiety, an antibiotic and nsaids
      Thongly
      From what I've learned about the auditory system and T it's because the auditory 'gain' gets turned up during sleep. Your auditory's primal (base) purpose is to keep you safe from harm (as well as communicate auditory messages and meaning, and to hear pleasant music/sounds); so when you go to sleep it cranks up the afferent gain (input sound) to specifically listen for signs of danger. Since one etiology leading to T may likely be a result of your brain's compensation for hearing loss/degradation, then it stands to reason that T gets louder at night because your brain turns up the input gain control at night.

      With that in mind, it is really bad if your brain is fixated on this annoying sound as a possible danger (because this causes your limbic system to emotionally tag this sound as scary and bad). This emotional tagging, in turn, cranks up the volume even more (because of the anxiety laced tag placed on the sound.

      T is a most unfortunate anomaly resulting from your brain compensating for a loss (your brain thinks it's doing a good thing trying to compensate for the loss); yet this is just one of the possible paths (etiologies). Your T may result from an actual source (in your body) that you are hearing via normal auditory methods and not from a neural compensatory pathway.

      Either way, your limbic system does the freak out and tags it as dangerous; therefore, causing you to focus on it and, thus, turning up the gain (especially at night when you have effectively relinquished control over conscious focus).

      That's why habituation is largely concerned with your reaction -- it's the best we can do right now (please, God, let us find a cure).

      I found it best to view my T for what it is; a sound -- not a danger. It went a long ways toward 'neutering' this beast called T.

      Hope this helps!

      Mark
       
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    7. Martin69
      Artistic

      Martin69 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Germany
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      (Health) Anxiety
      This is also strange for me. I had some little bit milder days past two days. I have no clue why. Still difficult to handle, but a little bit milder. It felt like relief compared to today with blasting full force above 15 kHz. I slept the same, I ate nothing special, stress is the same. I have no neck or jaw problems. The volume stays the whole day and no one knows the volume of the next day. If it is overactive neurons in the brain, why are they sometimes louder and sometimes not? No clue. As Dr. Nagler once said: The predictability of T is its unpredictability.
       
    8. Mark McDill
      Curious

      Mark McDill Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Papillion, NE
      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Likely stress, anxiety, an antibiotic and nsaids

      Martin
      Good to hear from you!

      This is another 'angle' I've been pondering (why is T louder some days if it is the result of a neuronal hyperactivity/reorganization?). By that logic, it should be steady. This raises the specter of the chemical dimension (chemical imbalances, fluid imbalances, etc). Those certainly can change form and function (daily) whereas 'hardware' cannot (or at least not as easily).

      I've been reading about (and talking with my audiologist about) the endolymph and perilymph fluids within the inner ear. They are chemically opposite yet complimentary (one is high in potassium and low in sodium; the opposite for the other) and they interact -- one affects the other. One is for balance, the other for hearing; but more importantly they interact and can affect each other.

      I'm not very far along in my understanding; but my trouble-shooting intuition keeps my eye in that direction (chemical overall, inner-ear fluids specifically). My guess is the chemical composition of these fluids is a factor in the bio-mechanical aspect of our inner-ear function; this, in turn, can affect a hyper neuronal state (across a spectrum) leading to some days more hyper than others.

      I so wish we had nano-bots that could go in and look (he, he)

      This stuff fascinates me; pure, simple genius!

      Mark
       
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    9. Martin69
      Artistic

      Martin69 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Germany
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      (Health) Anxiety
      Hi Mark,
      Also good to hear from you. I hope things are ok on your side.
      Here, still difficult. My T is just a nightmare. Trying really hard getting used to it, not reacting. But if 16-18 kHz blast on full force in my head, this is just suffering. There is not much functioning with this. But I really give my best.
      Take care,
      Martin
       
    10. Mark McDill
      Curious

      Mark McDill Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Papillion, NE
      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Likely stress, anxiety, an antibiotic and nsaids
      Martin
      Sorry to hear that; yes, this is just suffering (no doubt about it) and I'm sorry. You have been sticking with this for a long time (awesome), what have you found to manage? Can you mask it? Have you considered the Trobalt route?

      Mark
       
    11. canyonero

      canyonero Member

      Location:
      Eastern US
      Tinnitus Since:
      7/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma?
      I've wondered why my T spikes always begin or end in my sleep. Really have no theory on it.
       
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    12. Martin69
      Artistic

      Martin69 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Germany
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      (Health) Anxiety
      Hi Mark.
      Today is better. But yesterday was really catastrophic T.
      Nevertheless, depression is difficult to handle.
      When T low, anxiety goes down. If high, anxiety is high.
      How to manage? Like most here I guess. Distraction, masking (crickets, blue noise), a benzo.
      I go through my day like without T. But high tension, anxiety and depression is really tough.
      I live in the hope for full habituation, that my T volume goes down or a cure will be found.
      Trobalt? Don't know. I fear side effects.
      I have no choice. I need going through it.
       
    13. labrat10687

      labrat10687 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2000

      Thongjy, This is common with sleep. My worse time is in the afternoon. If I even doze off for even 20 seconds my tinnitus goes through the roof. It has done that from day 1. I actually have better luck with the ringing after 8 hours of sleep. Yes it's loud but nothing compared to nodding off in the afternoon. It's just amazing the behaviour tinnitus has. Can't figure it out but all I know if I think i'm even close to nodding off it's splash cold water on the face time.
       
    14. Fiore
      Doubtful

      Fiore Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      02/2015
      I notice everytime I wake my T is really low and it slowly increases as the day goes by. I don't know why. I have been on amoxicillin for the past 2-3 days and it has lowered my T pulled an upper wisdom tooth out will be going to the dentist today so he can prescribe something stronger for infection I DO NOT WANT to have an infection. Does anyone know if Metronidazole is ototoxic to T sufferers?

      @Martin69 I live in hope that a cure will be found too (sigh)
       
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    15. Paul201
      Worried

      Paul201 Member

      Location:
      Ireland
      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Subwoofer
      Yeah t and sleep..... im amazed at people who can sleep through the night with loud t, im waking up many times with what I would call moderate t, and when I hear the t immediately when I wake it sounds really loud, then as I wake up fully it lowers a bit to its "normal" level, who knows. The very odd day when I do sleep fairly well (more than 3 hours in a row now) I fell so much better. I don't see any reason why if I habituate better I wont sleep better.
       
    16. gary
      Transparent

      gary Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Macomb, MI. USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Who Knows
      Mark could you please tell me/post link, where you read this. I would like to do more research...

      A 5 minute nap shoots it up from a 5 to a 10+++ the rest of the day
       
    17. Mark McDill
      Curious

      Mark McDill Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Papillion, NE
      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Likely stress, anxiety, an antibiotic and nsaids
      @gary
      Sorry for the delay (responding to your question); working on taxes right now (I soooo hate taxes!).

      Here's a good link about the automatic gain response of our auditory system; http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fneur.2014.00206/full

      I am NOT a medical professional by any means; but I thought it very interesting they looked at the auditory system from a neuronal aspect (as well as from a sensory input point of view).

      Hope this helps...

      Mark
       
    18. gary
      Transparent

      gary Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Macomb, MI. USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Who Knows
      Thank you Mark, I have bookmarked the site to read later....
       
    19. @Mark McDill Hi Mark, I have been giving a lot of thought to the chemical balance/imbalance question, and then I ran across your post. Do you have anymore thoughts on this?
       
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    20. Mark McDill
      Curious

      Mark McDill Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Papillion, NE
      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Likely stress, anxiety, an antibiotic and nsaids
      svintegrity
      Unfortunately no; the only thing I have is my 'gut intuition' and a very short talk with my audiologist about it. I will see him again in about 2-3 weeks and I really want to talk to him a lot more about this subject. He is a scientist (from a biology background) by trade so he is very energetic when patients bring up topics like this (I get excited/fascinated about it too).

      I will research more (online) and I will share as I find; I will also share my audiologists wisdom too.

      Mark
       
    21. @Mark McDill I would appreciate any information you find. I have been having conversations about this subject with my physical therapist too. I am fascinated by this subject. I need to find a new audiologist. The one I have been seeing has been violating HIPPA (I think, anyway), and has been spreading my personal health information around in marketing Neuromonics. And the information has been erroneous. Perhaps mt new audiologist will be able to talk about this chemical balance/imbalance too. Knowing about your audiologist, I plan to look for one with a biology background. It has been only my gut intuition about the chemical balance/imbalance as well. My husband is a biologist and when I talk with him about it, he gets excited and says it makes a lot of sense. But his specialty is Arctic biology as a bush pilot, and not so much human biology, which he says he feels like he studied in a previous lifetime. Thanks for sharing anything you learn.
       
    22. 1MW
      No Mood

      1MW Member

      Cause of Tinnitus:
      ssnhl
      Today i wake up after long time without T maybe i had 0.5/10 but the improvement was huge.
      I have a huge relax feeling. Without T is fantastic 200% life regain.
      Iam 5 hours in this good situation.
      This happened in the sleep.
      I had taken the previous day 600mg NAC / 5g creatine / 2mg melatonin / 300mg acetaminophen / 2 cups chamomile / 1mg lorazepam but i think the big difference is that i slept with back on the bed (other days i slept in opposite position or with the side) and before sleep put nasal spray corticosteroids in my nose.
      The morning my nose was clear and i had no pressure sensation / hyperacusis & T .

      Other days with sleep my T was worse and other better. Sleep has effect to T for sure.
      I have passed periods with sleep good effect and bad effect but most times(85%) is good effect.

      Before several months i slept with 100db multiple freaking T sounds after a lot of alcohol
      cigarettes & loud music and i wake up after 13 hours with muffed hearing 0/10 T & no hyperacussis
      so sleep fixed the damage from loud music exposure.

      In general sleep have a positive effect to T if the opposite happens maybe a problem with pressures
      in middle ear / eustachian tubes & breath .
       
    23. @Mark McDill Is your audiologist at a T & H center?

      @1MW It is great that you have a huge improvement today. Cherish every moment of it!
       
    24. Mark McDill
      Curious

      Mark McDill Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Papillion, NE
      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Likely stress, anxiety, an antibiotic and nsaids

      svintegrity
      Just off the cuff (this is Monday morning research so take it for what it is) here's what I've been reading. For your biology smart husband most of this will likely go in the ' no duh' bucket. But for people like me it's shiny-new information. Keep in mind -- I'M NO EXPERT!! The best I can do is the "Reader's Digest" version of tinnitus

      Perilymph and Endolymph: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/175622/human-ear/65043/Endolymph-and-perilymph http://www.cochlea.eu/en/cochlea/cochlear-fluids

      - Perilymph (hearing) = high in Sodium/low in potassium (it is chemically 'close' to cerebral spinal fluid)
      - Endolymph (balance) = low in Sodium/High in potassium (chemically similar to perilymph but opposite)

      There is indication these two fluids interact (balance) with each other via Reisner's membrane (to keep a chemical balance); but the jury is still out on that one. It is also possible (anatomically) that perilymph is restored via cerebral spinal fluid stores (around the brain); but again, the jury is still out on that one.

      'Leakage' :http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8080633
      Evidently, endolymphatic fluids can 'leak' and saturate the perilymphatic fluid with potassium

      I believe (but could be wrong since I'm no expert) a saturation of potassium caused by endolymph leaking into the perilymph essentially results in a hyperactivity in the inner cochlea (which is one of the etiologies of tinnitus). This is possible because the inner-hair-cells are responsible for transferring stored sound-wave-energy in the perilymph fluid into electrical impulses (for the auditory nerve and associated neurons). The bio-mechanical nature of the IHCs utilizes available potassium (in the perilymph); specifically, each IHC passes a potassium ion through a little 'window' to finally create the electrical pulses for associated neurons.

      Too much potassium combined with degraded IHC's (for whatever reason) quite possibly = neuronal hyperactivity = tinnitus

      Here's a link about the potassium angle: http://www.pnas.org/content/110/24/9980.full

      Here are some Interesting case reports from The Tinnitus Journal: http://www.tinnitusjournal.com/detalhe_artigo.asp?id=328

      My guess is tinnitus presents when there is a 'combo-platter' of damaged IHC's and/or excess potassium. Pharmaceuticals retigabine and trobalt, though intended for use with seizures, has shown an efficacy in the treatment of tinnitus -- because they modulate the potassium channels (makes sense to me).

      So, if there is a connection between endolymph, perilymph, and CSF, then it stands to reason these are the major players when it comes to the chemical aspect of tinnitus (verses the bio-mechanical components).

      It all works together and is fascinating; if I'm wrong on any of this stuff it's because I'm the 'monkey in the space capsule' just pushing buttons and pulling levers :LOL:. Your hubby may have a far more informed view of all this.

      Mark
       
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    25. Mark McDill
      Curious

      Mark McDill Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Papillion, NE
      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Likely stress, anxiety, an antibiotic and nsaids
      svintegrity
      My audiologist (Ed Granger) is associated with Nebraska Hearing Instruments; he treats all issues auditory (T, H, Meneire's, whatever).

      Mark
       
    26. Mark, Thanks for taking the time to respond to me about the chemical balance/imbalance question. I look forward to reading the links you sent to me, as will my husband. Anti-seizure medications seem to help with tinnitus as well as vascular compression syndrome, etc. It all makes sense to me too, for a couple of monkeys in a space capsule!
       
    27. Hi again Mark, Durn, I was hoping your audiologist would be closer to Westrrn Washington. Sounds like you have a good one in Nebraska!
       
    28. erik
      Breezy

      erik Manager Staff Benefactor

      Location:
      Washington State, USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/15/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Most likely hearing loss
      Wow good post(s) Mark. The increased T after sleep or nap has been a mystery talked about on T boards for decades
       
    29. Mark McDill
      Curious

      Mark McDill Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Papillion, NE
      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Likely stress, anxiety, an antibiotic and nsaids
      svintegrity
      Just in case, my audiologist (Ed Granger) will talk to anyone anytime; he's real easy about it (very knowledgeable). More people than I have claimed he is 'the real deal'; he has been a tremendous help to me.

      Just don't talk him into leaving Nebraska -- then you and I will have words :LOL:.

      Mark
       
    30. Mark McDill
      Curious

      Mark McDill Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Papillion, NE
      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Likely stress, anxiety, an antibiotic and nsaids
      Thanx Erik; I just think this stuff is pure genius. I don't claim to understand a 10th of it (just enough to get by). But I have to admit; learning about it has become bit of a hobby (ok, obsession :LOL:)

      Mark
       

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