I Feel Bad — Just Debunked a Friend's Conspiracy Theories

My best friend is a conspiracy theorist. He read a David Icke book in the 90s (loaned by me!) and since that time he has been sinking seriously into the strange world of paranoid conspiracies. First the moon hoax - then the Great Reset - the Masons and Illuminati - reptilian stuff - flat earth - aliens - chemtrails - you name it - he believes in it.

He is 65 years old - former college lecturer. Retired. Quite reasonable and rational in every other way.

I am reluctant to call him - as he will always get around to his crazy stuff and I feel that our world views are so far apart it is getting difficult to keep the friendship going. I try to listen sympathetically but...

One problem is - I never took the vaccine - and I think he believes on this basis I am fertile ground for his conspiracy mulch. I explained my reasons to him and now he is insisting I take the vaccines since I obviously believe in everything the government says. He claims that millions have already died from the vaccine. I rebutted this asking how many he knows who have had the vaccine - 30 or so he says - me too - another 30 - how many have died? Zero. I said when people we know in good health start dying in numbers in the next year - maybe he will have something. A very big maybe. I suspect in 1 years time nobody will have died and he will shift the goalposts again.

His latest is claim is that all of man's technological advances have been provided by alien life. Man is basically a primitive life form and needed this help.

Frankly if we did not have this long friendship - I would not entertain listening to him.

I sent him an email this morning explaining why I reject all of his conspiracies etc - partly as - next time we speak - I don't want to listen to any of it. I have previously asked for evidence but all he does is bombard me with ludicrous anonymous websites and when I try to research who is making these claims I always draw a blank.

It's a shame - I don't see him ever getting out of this but felt I had to be clear with him I don't accept the validity of his claims.

Conspiracy theorists are so common - I just wondered if any of you guys had to deal with anything like this.

 

Depends how heavy he is on this stuff. If it's all he talks about; or, when he does, he does it with so much pigheadedness that he drains all of your energy, could be a problem. If you can make light of the remarks and he can appreciate that his views are but his own, and smile with you as you tease, then it should, in theory, be fine. Similar to discussing politics really. People that, supposedly, know everything, are incredibly tiresome.

 

He is very heavily into it. It's not the same as disagreeing on politics since in this kind of debate we agree on the fundamentals underpinning society and reality. In the conspiracy world view - everything is a ruse to deceive. I try to make light of it at times but he doesn't really take the hint.

I think his hope is that me - as his best friend - I will come around to his way of thinking - and then we can have some really productive conversations LOL. But that ain't happening.

 

I can understand how you feel to some degree, @Stuart-T. I used to have a guy, let's call him my mentor, he was and still is running a sort of endorsement for men, helping men to find their masculinity, their purpose in life and rebuilding their life. He plays heavily on how feminism has destroyed what used to be important to men and uses spirituality, mythology and so on to talk directly to men who are severely disheartened by a society that shuns and discards them. He used to be a very clever guy who saw clearly and spoke from the heart. He was a guy I had a lot of respect for.

Unfortunately, in the last 5 years or so he has increasingly become more and more crazy as he has begun to quote conspiracy after conspiracy, promoting this nonsense on his Facebook page and elsewhere. He also has a tendency to present himself as "THE TRUTH" with little flexibility for other views. I disregarded this nonsense all the way up to when he said that overturning Roe v Wade was a very good thing and that democrats just wants free abortion because they need to make medicine from dead babies or something like that. I am and always will be pro-choice and seeing him take the complete opposite stance based on something as absurd as that was the straw that broke the camels back. I'm really disappointed in what he has become, especially since he used to be a guy I looked up to and thought was fighting the fight of the average guy. Now he just looks crazy to me. He occasionally says good things still, but it's become much more seldom.

I'm basically as anti-conspiracy as they come, so I can relate to your frustration and disappointment.

 

I had an acquaintance who thought that the jets flying were spraying humans so government could eventually control us. Then a conspiracy where the United States CIA and all the other government agencies were going to micro chip every person on the planet so they could mind control us. But as I listened to all this, my thoughts were this guy has too much time on his hands. One day he showed up with a book on how water in a tub would cure all sickness and diseases. Ok, well let me know how that works out. 2 years later, when I hadn't seen or heard from him, we run into each other. What the hell happened to your nose? Answer, cancer. So water didn't work?

 

That is interesting about your this mentor guy. My friend I have known for 35 years - I met him when I was an awkward young man and he helped me towards being a functional male with advice etc and I may never have got married, had a child etc if it were not for him. So I suppose he mentored me in the early days - he is 7 years older. Like your friend - he has this misogynistic side to him - a kind of us and them attitude - which I never really took on board. I never blamed women for rejecting me at any time - they want what they want - and at many times I wasn't it. That's how it is. But he has been quoting Jordan Peterson - a commentator I loathe and who in my opinion speaks absolute drivel. It sounds to me like anti women crap, a lot of it. This in addition to all the conspiracy rubbish - and a pro Russia stance on the Ukraine war - has really made it difficult for me to continue the friendship - though I know he means me well - so I am trying to keep it all in context. I expect because he mentored me when I was young and naive - he feels hurt that I am not now listening to him when he genuinely thinks he is trying to save my life. Several years ago he called me in a total panic telling me to load my car and drive for the hills - Planet X was going to make a near miss on earth and cause mass flooding etc. That is where he is at. Me - I am a skeptic - the more fantastic a claim is - the more impressive the evidence is going to have to be. So am the wrong person to persuade with much of what he is claiming based on the so called evidence he has - which seems to amount to hearsay and just wild unsupported claims. When I highlight his errors - on flat earth for example - he laughs and shakes his head "it's a red herring Stuart! Open your eyes!"

What can one say.

I expect he will ignore my email. We are not in touch that often - maybe once every few weeks. I am hoping he will come to me one day and admit he was going through some issues and is back to the way he was. But I'm not holding my breath.

 

We are of the same mind, Stuart. I am also obnoxiously difficult to convince with this kind of stuff and that principle you mentioned, that the more fantastic it sounds, the more convincing the evidence will have to be, is very similar to how I think.

However, my "mentor" is not misogynistic. I think I explained myself poorly. I guess it depends on how you think of women in general and where you cross that line. But a core message of his is that men should be more respectful towards women. However, he also thinks that the current version of feminism in the west has gone way too far and completely detached from the original purpose, an opinion I also hold. I also agree with about 60% of the stuff Jordan Peterson says. However, Peterson is too simple when it comes to his idea about the nuclear family, something that puts me off quite a lot. I remember a specific quote by Peterson that really bothered me for a long time - "If you haven't got a family by the time you are 40, you're going to be a lost soul". He puts soo much emphasis on family, it seems he believes that it's not possible for a male to be happy if you're not a father. That life isn't for everyone and I think he's a little drunk on his own voice sometimes. He has a tendency to invite other people to his YouTube videos, then he talks constantly for 40 minutes without allowing them a single word.

But yeah, he's probably more important to people with more potential for a future than me. I have tinnitus, after all.

I think you should reconsider how important this guy is to you. I cut off my mom. Maybe for the rest of my life. If I can do that, you can cut off that guy.

 

I won't be cutting him off - we have been friends too long and I believe he means me well. We just have incompatible world views. Frankly I would almost rather he was a bible thumping Christian - well almost.

I came to Peterson through atheism in his debates with atheists - I have not really listened to anything else - and this is how am evaluating him. I am surprised he is endorsed by so many people given that he advocates coming to god through mind altering drugs. Feminism - I'm not sure where I stand - it's a matter for women really - I am glad that women are able to actually choose who they want to marry now that they tend to be economically free of male earning power. That is a good thing but I appreciate there are many more issues connected with feminism.

It's a shame you cut your mom out but you have your reasons. I nearly did the same - but frankly - I think about the difficulties she endured bringing me and my siblings up - and an unsupportive husband etc - we had our differences - but made peace with her recently and go to stay with her when I can and talk about better and worse times. She is 79 and in good health. My brother and sister won't speak to her so I am glad to be of some support in her late years.

I got a reply from my friend - nothing about my critique on his conspiracies - he sent me a song he found on YouTube which was nice of him and I thanked him. Being a hobbyist sceptic - you can imagine I am the worst kind of person for him to expose his ideas too - one of a small number with strong epistemic principles - just his luck LOL.

 

That's your right and choice of course. I guess I was talking from my point of view. I've just become a lot less patient with people lately. But I know what you mean. I have three extremely close friends whom I have known for 10, 20 and 30 years, respectively. The guy I've known for 30 years is literally like a brother to me. I've actually known him 1 year longer than I've known my own kid brother. These are not people I would remove from my life for any reason. They are like blood to me. So I know how you feel.

Stuart, please tell me more about Peterson's debate with atheists. I have to be honest, I'm having a hard time making up my mind on Peterson. Sometimes he says the most wonderful things, other times he says stuff I find to be mind-bogglingly stupid or pigheaded. I still don't really understand if he's religious or not. I am definitely NOT religious, that's for sure. I used to be a "devout" agnostic with a very philosophical attitude. Tinnitus put a swift end to that. I am now a cold-hearted, cynical atheist with no patience for such nonsense.

I suppose I'm going to have to see my mother again sometime. But I think it will be on my terms, because she's a bit like a dog in the sense that if you give her a bone, she wants the cake and eat it too. So you have to constantly tell her to behave and train her like a dog or she just goes bananas with her narcissism and victim-mentality. I waited 20 years for her to change. I think that was a mistake.

Well, it sounds like you two have some things to work out. But I also think this could be a great opportunity for him to change. Believe it or not, but he helped you at first. Life will have that this time, it will be the other way around. He will be challenged at the very core of his beliefs. Even worse, he will be challenged by someone he loves. Most people disregard this kind of challenge when it comes from strangers or a situation we can just disregard. But not when it's someone close. A friend or a family member. He's going to have to work this stuff out if he wants to keep you. See where it takes you, since you insist on keeping him anyway

It's nice talking to you Stuart. I hope you have a nice day.

 

Two top 10 conspiracies then - the chemtrails - and the Bill Gates microchip hypothesis. Your acquaintance is well on the way to being a flat earther.

As bad luck would have it - my ex wife buys into some of this stuff. Chemtrails for example. There is a photo doing the rounds on alternative news sites (i.e. amateur fantasies) of the inside of a passenger jet full of canisters - presumably a chemtrail dispersal system. My son who is an aeronautical engineer had a laugh telling me when planes are being tested - there are no passenger seats - so they need a weighting system and that is what was in the plane. It does amuse me all this stuff - and most of it is harmless - except for the vaccine conspiracy theorists because now it is dangerous and some vulnerable high risk people are rejecting the vaccine because they believe in this.

I am also a huge sceptic on supplements + alternative therapies - particularly homeopathy, acupuncture, chiropractors etc. But then again - I tend also to be cautions with mainstream clinically endorsed pharma. Since coming onto this forum I am staggered by the number of drugs out there people are using to tame tinnitus. I would need to get to a desperate level to start trying them and I don't rule that out since this wretched condition is so unpredictable.

 

My friends are mostly leftists while I’m almost ultra MAGA (mainly to annoy them lol). We disagree a lot but are still good friends at the end of the day. My brothers got into the whole government chemtrail crap. It was annoying haha.

If I was presented in a room full of pro-choice people asking me what my stance was, I would say whatever Bill Burr said. It’s also ok to have different beliefs and one shouldn’t be shut down for their opinion if they aren’t causing harm.

 

I see what you mean about your mother - yes that sounds hard to deal with. My mum is quite reasonable to be with and we get on well. Though she has been suffering from paranoid delusions for years. This is the irony - my ex wife and best friend are paranoid conspiracy theorists - and my mother believes she is being followed - attacked in her flat with pen size lasers - everyone is out to get her. She manages to live quite a functional active life despite this - seems to be like a game to her. So I especially could not turn my back on her in view of this. She needs support.

Peterson is a slippery fish when it comes to religion. He claims to be a Christian - but when you ask him about the resurrection and what exactly is it about Christianity that he believes - he starts on this convoluted philosophical mess of spaghetti. The more names he can drop the better - Dostoevsky - Jung - Piaget etc anything but to the point. After 10 minutes of this waffle - you forget which question he is answering. There is no way he is a Christian in any proper sense of the word. He seems to believe in a metaphorical resurrection (heresy to Christians) and a non personal source of life and morality which is god. I think he calls himself a Christian to boost his YouTube views - playing to the anti woke Christian right - which may be why you can't get a straight answer out of him on religion as he wants to hold on to that audience. I will watch some of his stuff on non religious issues though I don't hold out too much hope I will hear anything which will be of any use to me but you never know. I have heard he advised young men to walk upright with their shoulders back and head up - seems like good advice! Quite the genius then - never would have thought of that LOL.

Some of the atheists I follow - Matt Dillahunty, Sam Harris and the generation of millennial skeptics like Cosmic Skeptic and Rationality Rules on YouTube. I like Richard Dawkins though he is not equipped to deal with some of the advanced philosophical arguments but for a biologist he has a good grasp of the issues and of course is in a league of his own at explaining evolutionary theory.

How is your tinnitus? I was also feeling like my life was over just 6 months ago - but this hissing sound in my ear has now become an accepted part of me. It is my new silence. I am glad to get it at 57 and not 27. Feel very lucky and feel bad for young people getting it. I do fear it could get worse and bring down my optimism - but until then - I try to make the most of my time.

 

Yeah, well imagine if your brothers also tell you the world is flat - there have never been any space launches - aliens gave man all the important technology and the vaccine purpose is to reduce the world population by 80% making more space for the elite masters of this planet.

 

I’ve heard most of it haha.

 

So what are those streaks left by airplanes?

Don't tell me those are contrails. I don't know exactly what they are but definitely not normal. Could be weather experiments. Airplanes don't normally fly in a cross cross pattern.



And the vaccines are toxic and cause harm, there are thousands of testimonies, even right here on the forum there are folks who were injured. You don't necessarily die from them. If you cannot see our governments gaslighting us about vaccine safety/efficacy, then there is seriously something wrong with you.

Sure the reptillian thing is nonsense but don't write off the real stuff.

 

May I ask why? I have an ultra-MAGA sister who, after I repeatedly told her on a phone conversation I couldn't stand Trump, countered by screaming at me (three times) that I need him for my "spiritual benefit". He's the "only one that can save us!" I don't know how anybody can "out-MAGA" that! Can you?

 

Yeah no, haha. I just think he’s hilarious lol, has a big ego though and people can get cultish. I don’t agree with everything he stands for either.

 

Those trails you see are vapour trails caused by hot air from jet engines into cold atmosphere.

 

The way you just described Peterson and his relation to religion is exactly my take as well. I couldn't have put it better myself. It's a complete mess and he seems incapable of giving a straight answer.

A lot of my thoughts and feelings on tinnitus in general, on having it as a young person and so on, has been described in detail by other members here. I could probably have put my own words on it some time ago, but I've simply become too apathetic to engage in any kind of activity that requires more than minimum effort. Please understand this, as this is important: I suffered enormous setbacks in my life prior to the tinnitus. Everything was taken from me, even my dignity. I don't want to go into detail now but it was a mess with lawyers and the police. The depression I suffered in the aftermath of that disaster made me isolate quite badly for many years. The tinnitus on top of this makes me feel like every possible chance for me to have a good life is squeezed. Like I should not even have a chance to try. Whenever I see other people talk about "normal" problems like financial issues or that there's some girl that doesn't love them back or that they have to take their car to service or something absurd like that, I just smile and laugh a little bit, but inside I'm screaming "SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!". I would literally give my arm, my toes, a foot, whatever to go back to the "problems" I had 4 years ago. They weren't problems. A problem with a solution isn't a problem. It's a temporary discomfort. To be condemned to this... at least I know God is a sick fuck with a disturbing sense of humour.

I'm in love with a girl right now for the first time in over 10 years. I don't allow myself to feel something like that easily and I'm quite picky because of what happened last time. But every time I start thinking of any kind of future with her, I have to slap myself and go "but get real here, you know you can never be with anyone ever again. You can't even leave your apartment!". So yeah. Groundhog day for me.

 

Religion is man made with no concept of reality.

Religion was invented by a con man who then found the first fool.

Like most who say they have read the Bible, but only in parts, that which they have read makes them a good Christian. But let me say this, sit down, read the bible from the first page to the very end, and that will make you an Atheist.

 

I am sorry you have had such a rough time. The last 5 years of my marriage was extremely difficult so I had to get out once my son got to university. I am glad I did not have tinnitus during my marriage though. I will not tell her now I have it as she will throw it in my face. I have been divorced for 1 year and frankly - trying to figure out what I want to do with the rest of my life. I have an eBay business which I run from home and it does reasonably well - it gives me focus during the days. I am not good with a lot of leisure time. I think I am probably going to go overseas next year and teach English - see some more of the world. I did it before - and can do it again. I think it's great you found a girl you love and hope things will improve. When I first realised my tinnitus is here to stay - my immediate though was - I will be spending the rest of my life on my own with this condition - it takes all the joy out of life. But somehow I habituated and it is just this ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss in my left ear all day which is there without rest and I just accept it. But we all have our own level of difficulty and from what you say I imagine yours is very hard to cope with. How old are you? My guess is mid 30s.

My friend just sent me that song - nothing else from him. I feel a bit rotten about laying it on the line where I stand etc. But I am hoping next time we talk the conversation won't go anywhere near his conspiracies. In a way it is like politics I suppose as people with known opposing views can be friends and just avoid areas of disagreement.

 

They are precisely contrails - looks like many flight paths in that picture.

Well - I suppose tinnitus sufferers can be conspiracy theorists too LOL.

I agree that the government have told many lies about vaccine efficacy. In America they were spreading this absurd propaganda that ALL new cases in hospital were unvaccinated at some point in the last year. CNN and others were broadcasting these claims. How strange - according to UK NHS figures - at that time it was like 70% of all new hospital cases were vaccinated. But one would expect this when 90% of over 18s have been vaccinated. Still means the vaccine is effective. I did the research at the time and realised very little the USA authorities say on the vaccine can be believed. European figures are consistent - and USA figures are out of line last time I checked.

Yes many are saying that they got tinnitus after the vaccine. According to UK figures - 1 in 7000 reported tinnitus after the vaccine. But this relies on self reporting - so the true figure could be considerably higher. I have not had the vaccine and do not intend to have it.

Don't think that because I reject chemtrails - aliens - flat earth - moon hoax etc - it means I believe everything governments say. As I encounter a claim - I do my research and decide whether there is likely to be any truth to it. I don't assume anything.

Just because we have been lied to - does not mean we ARE being lied to. Each claim needs to be investigated without prior prejudice.

And as I said before - the more extraordinary a claim - the more compelling evidence I am going to need to believe in it. If you tell me that there is a conspiracy among USA insurers to deny all medical insurance claims initially - as a way of maximising profits. I am probably going to accept that without too much more research. I know this goes on and I know how sneaky and unscrupulous insurers are. So my level of confidence in the truth of this claim is going to be moderate without the need for any confirmation. This level will improve to strong if I find some actual consumer reports investigating the insurance industry confirming the claim.

But for chemtrails - a conspiracy in which the population is being controlled by releasing various agents into the atmosphere - this is an extraordinary claim. It makes no sense on any level - and the conspirators and their extended families and friends and their families + the elite would have to have some way of avoiding breathing in the poisoned air. I am going to need some really amazing evidence to believe in that. Passenger and cargo jets have been leaving contrails since the 1950s. We don't need to invent some silly conspiracy to explain what they are.

I believe based on strong evidence. And it is going to take more than a photo of a sky criss crossed with contrails to convince me there is any reality in the chemtrail conspiracy. Do you have any other evidence beyond claims and photos?

 

I'm 37. I got tinnitus when I was 33, about 4 months before I was turning 34.

Technically my tinnitus is also a ssssssh, but with some pretty enormous variations. It alternates between a whisper and an electrical steel fan. Sometimes I'm barely affected, other times it's like my brain is being literally fried. It's this constant change without any sort of predictability... I have autism so I was already very sensitive to sensory input. I probably had some misophonia all my life. My education is also in creative writing, I was supposed to work on my novels and publish them. I also wanted to work as an editor for a publisher. All of that is out the window now. I can barely think on a bad day, making great creative works is completely out of the question. I worked so hard to develop my own fantasy universe since I was 17, I was going to be the next Tolkien. The universe was ready, the plot was ready, I was working on the script for the first book. But fuck me, I guess, maybe it's God's way of saying that nobody wants what I have to give.

When I got this I promised myself I'd give it 5 years. It will be 4 years now in about 1 month. So I have 1 year to live. I'm still waiting for Susan Shore but I'm unsure if that's going to work for me because I don't think my tinnitus is somatic. Nothing happens when I touch my face at least.

 

That's tough. I wanted to be a writer at one time. But though I can write well - did an English Masters etc - I have absolutely no imagination to produce anything. Any time I try to write - it just seems irrelevant. But hey - that's why I am an eBay trader and amateur skeptic and not a writer. It's a shame as you have the ability - but this wretched condition is stopping you. You are the right age for marriage too - settling down. I married at 36.

The treatments that emerge just seem to be one false dawn after another but I hope something will work for you. Hang in there and keep going.

 

It's hard to get evidence. Only evidence is by deduction. Why would anybody approve such a dangerous flight path of criss-crossing airplanes? Also the type of aircraft in these criss-crosses are not commercial flights but are military aircraft. Chemtrail conspiracies are several, but they are not all true.

The one that I believe is that these are not some kind of mind control chemicals, definitely sounds absurd, but very plausible that these are a weather manipulation experiment... i.e. sun blocking, cloud forming, etc.

Now the chemicals sprayed are most likely harmful to human being, therefore whenever I see these these criss-cross patterns, I stay indoors for that day until the particles settle down to the ground.

Also keep in mind a Contrails dissipate fairly quickly and are not so long as to streak across the whole sky, whereas these Chemtrails look like they don't dissipate but rather spread across and persist, blanketing the sky with adjacent trails in the criss-cross.

 

The airplanes did not occupy the sky at the same time. It may be that only 1 plane was in the sky at any one time in the period in which these contrails appeared and they accumulated. If you follow FlightRadar24 you can find out which planes flew through any portion of the sky throughout the day. Do you have a timestamp and location for that sky photo? I can research it for you. Or is it just some random sky shot circulated by conspiracy theorists?

What evidence do you have that they are chemicals and also that anything is sprayed?

They can dissipate quickly - they can also last up to 14 hours - depends on the weather conditions.

You don't reach conclusions about scientific claims (which is what the chemtrail claim is) by appeals to observation. We need is DATA. The chemtrail claims people need to send an airplane up to sample the the contrails - hand over the samples to an independent body - and have them analysed. Until then all you have is speculation and conjecture.

I really think you need to read up on scientific method. I really recommend this way of determining what is real. It will help you in life generally speaking in many areas including tinnitus.

My conspiracy theorist friend believes the contrails are actually genuine contrails - but that the government on a blue sky day is trying to hide the fact that the earth is covered in a huge dome - so a heavily contrailed sky is intended to hide the dome away - part of his flat earth theory. Problem is the sky is so huge - it would take hundreds of airliners to cover the entire sky in contrails.

 

Conspiracy theories about politics, or perhaps vaccines, are one thing but the belief that there are reptilian beings and aliens among us is an indication of mental illness.

 

No, these are high altitude planes, government/military owned planes, they don't appear on FlightRadar24.

I personally witnessed several of these planes criss-crossing back and forth across the sky right above me (near Detroit). There is absolutely no strategic purpose for this type of exercise. Also this only happens over or near populated areas. I grew up in Israel, and there are a lot of military jets flying and I had never seen contrails that long ever and certainly not a criss-cross exercise.

"They" would never sanction a research flight to pick up samples for analysis. Just like they don't sanction analyzing and testing COVID-19 vaccine contents by third parties and/or publishing the results.

In any case, I would rather err on the side of caution and stay away from chemtrails.
Believe what you will. This isn't a lizard people conspiracy theory. It is plausible. Cloud seeding and weather manipulation experiments are no secret, they are happening.

 

Just returning to the chemtrails. Why I reject deduction.

I reject deduction because the chemtrails claim is too extraordinary to accept on the basis of this relatively unreliable method of reasoning.

The photo you showed me is low level contrails. High level aircraft which can barely be seen by the naked eye leave behind - if anything - contrails which are barely visible. And distributing chemicals at that height frankly would be ineffective - the chemicals would simply disperse in the upper atmosphere and be ineffective in terms of poisoning anything.

Nope - still no evidence and now that you have put your chemtrail droppers at 50,000 feet you have shot apart your own claims.

Are you a flat earther?

 

Then this man shows up on my door step, declaring he found a book on water curing. Then goes on to tell me how we derived from lizards. So with that I stood back and quickly shut the door. As he walked away I opened the door and said don't come back. You effin nut case.