Learn from Others' Mistakes

I hope that in this thread people will post the descriptions of incidents that all of us could learn from.

My tinnitus had improved greatly over the first three months (and changed to a hiss). After I accidentally pressed a loud landline phone (its volume stuck at Max) to my bad ear and the person on the other end raised her voice to greet me (I moved my hand away right away, but it was too late), my T changed back to a high pitched noise and got a lot louder. That spike took more than three months to fade, but it had certainly interfered with my recovery. It was a major setback. So you might want to T-proof your home . If you know that something is loud - get rid of it.

Below are more testimonies. Some of them seem to imply that our ears have been compromised and that the sounds that the healthy people won't even notice can have a devastating consequences for people like us. Other testimonies seem to imply that earplugs and ear muffs can provide only a false sense of security.

Of course many people take those risks and are ok. It doesn't mean that they will always be ok. If you begin hitting a wall with a hammer, it takes some time before you get to see the objects on the other side of the wall. Also they will never know whether their tinnitus would have faded, had they not taken those risks.

To me tinnitus is so horrific that I would be willing to pay a high price to reduce/eliminate even a small chance that tinnitus will get worse (or get a small chance that it will fade). The testimonies below seem to prove that a small (or is it not so small?!) risk does exist, and can be eliminated if we go out of our way to protect our ears (and do not willingly expose ourselves to noise).

Having said the above, my own experiences seem to suggest that what can cause big problems during the first 6-12 months, can often be tolerated during your second year. My advice is for you to be extra careful during your first year, and then you will want to "play it by ear."

Unfortunately there had not been any studies about what can cause permanent and temporary spikes. http://hyperacusisfocus.org/research/earplug-use-2/
"While there are over 2200 posts on hyperacusis setbacks in the patient forum on chat-hyperacusis.net, no academic papers could be found using a pubmed search."

The fact that there have been no published studies regarding what causes permanent and temporary T spikes, means there is no scientific reason behind doctor advice to only protect your ears against noises that are known to damage the inner ear. They are basing this advice on studies that talk about what can damage healthy ears, whereas what can hurt us hasn't been studied (and the overwhelming number of testimonies on this site imply that sounds that can hurt us are Way quieter than the sounds that can damage healthy ears).

Click on the "up arrow" to see the messages below in context.

Hopefully this thread will help to raise awareness.

 

Earlier this year, "my side" (the one that argues that there is plenty of evidence that it makes sense to exercise caution and not intentionally expose oneself to noise) and "the other side" had argued in a number of threads on this forum. Judging by the number of posters supporting each side, and by the "like" and "agree" counts on the various posts, it appeared that about half of the regulars support my side and about half support the other side. The fact that three people from the other side tried to take down my posts, seems to show that they don't believe they can respond to my post with convincing counterarguments.

One objection raised against the post was that "anyone can use this forum's search function." Using this logic, we don't need that Research forum, as all of us can just search PubMed and Google Scholar ourselves. I Haven't used the search function. I have been reading this forum for 15 months now and every time I see one of those cautionary tales, I would paste it into a special file on my computer. I don't think it would be easy to find those cautionary tales by using the search function. Also, the point is that most people will Not Know that sounds that the healthy people won't even notice can harm people like us, so most won't use the search function. Most of the people who are aware of this issue won't use the search function. And even if one were to use the search function and find something, one is unlikely to keep looking and find That Many cautionary tales that one can benefit from.

Another objection was that the "cautionary tales" were taken out of context. When I see posts about people getting spikes where the culprit was likely NOT the poster being exposed to noise, I don't add them to my file. When I quote a cautionary tale, I always point out that the reader is welcome to click on the "up arrow" to see the quote in context (and I believe this was the case in the post that got deleted). This is because I am confident that the reader will agree with me that once the context is taken into account, the post can still be interpreted as evidence that it is a good idea to stay away from noise if one can. Another thing to keep in mind is that the authors of those posts get notified about this thread. If any of them feel like they had been taken out of context, they can easily write about it in this thread.

I hope people will post their experiences (or the experiences of others') here. If you want to debate how far it makes sense to go to protect our ears, please use one of the old threads that have those debates. Most of the arguments had already been voiced in threads like
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/why-do-some-people-hate-bill-bauer.27106/
I would be happy to have another debate, but let's not just keep regurgitating old arguments.

 

This thread really helps no one Bill. All it does is it screws, with the minds of fragile forum members and puts even more fear into their lives. Our members are suffering and posts like this make them worst. Please respect the people here and post material that helps them move ahead and not backwards.....

 

If someone has blind faith (despite all of the evidence) that noise is safe, then they would think the above. If it is the case that noise might not be safe (as evidenced by all of those people's posts), then it is important to raise awareness of it.

This is one of the most important posts I made on this forum (possibly second only to that Stats thread).

 

Yes, and what they don't realize is that there are everyday things that can make their T louder. Those things sound harmless (e.g., music at the mall, the sound of CDs being broken), but they can do serious damage. I wish someone were to tell me about this, early in my journey. I remember several other people on this forum making posts saying the same thing (lamenting not being warned).

 

I can go through all your copy n pasted material and DEBUNK them all. I won't do that, because I don't have time for such pointless threads. In the end this is just a FEAR MONGERING thread. Your thread(s) will never bother me, but these poor people dont deserve to see such threads...

 

If you are not going to do it, why talk about it here? I can Debunk all of your arguments. Now what?

 

@fishbone

 

Let me ask you this. How come everyday noise, don't seem to make my tinnitus worst? Please help me on this one Bill.
I have broken dishes, I have accidentally blasted my bose speakers, I was training 2 days ago in MMA studio and teacher had heavy metal music on(low volume and for 1 hour). Please explain why my ears are not worst right now? I have walked on air packets, I have been exposed to everyday noises....

 

I’ve never even interacted with this guy, but after reading his posts I can tell it’s like dealing with a child.

 

You might have been T-free, had you been more careful.

But I agree - if everyday loud noises had never given you any spikes, then it is possible that you are one of the lucky people who don't need to worry too much about this. For people like you, if the cost (in terms of effort and missed experiences) is low, it still makes sense to try to avoid loud noises, though.

 

During my recent vacation, I got exposed to noises that, in the past, would have resulted in savage spikes for me. I ended up being fine. So it is entirely possible that after about a year, one is less vulnerable. I will write about those experiences in an upcoming thread. Like I wrote in my original post:

 

Bill you need to read my posts, because what you just posted in this single post is absurd and too funny. I got tinnitus because I was sick and almost died as a teen. Then I made it worst, because I went to heavy metal concerts. These are not everyday noises bro. If you are going to post and say something, please be factual about it

Please stop scaring these poor people and lay off the copy n pasting....

PS- what really made my tinnitus worst was the illness I had, rock concerts/bars/loud events and meds. Everyday noises are not the reason why my tinnitus is intrusive today....

 

Did you read the posts that I had quoted? Those people's experiences had to do with everyday noises (or concerts + earplugs).

It doesn't look like you read

So even after you gave yourself loud T, it is possible that your T would have faded had you tried to be easier on your ears.

 

Please stop trying to keep people ignorant and unaware of those posts. Also, please stop posting off-topic in this thread.

 

This thread is nonsense and as long as I am a member here, I will not let you scare these people and get them paranoid. You say that people go to concerts and their tinnitus is worst? Let me ask you this, how much stress/anxiety did they have towards that concert? What DB protection was their ears protected with? These 2 alone make a HUGE difference. How long did they have ear plugs or muff in or on their ears? These make a HUGE difference.

I been to 2 heavy metal concerts last year with good ear plugs and my tinnitus never raised in volume and my hearing never got bad either. I am not saying people need to go to concerts, this is their call, but I was not bothered by the concert at all. The only issue I had was that my ears had ear plugs in them for 2-4 hours and they were tired and irritated in the end.

You know why i don't get spikes Bill? Because I am not scared, anxious, stressed out about noise. I am not scared of noise/sound. These poor people are scared right now and you are just scaring them as usual.

You can type whatever you want, but i can debunk them........

PS- I wish @Contrast would show up and make a meme of this post

PSS- As I always say in my posts, people need to protect their ears in known spots(bars,concerts,live events). I am not telling people to go to concerts, live shows or anything of that nature. This is their call and it is 100% up to them if they go or not...

 

And yet we get posts that support my point of view every couple of days. Here is one that just got posted today. Note, that it is entirely possible that had my thread not been deleted back in June, the person below might have read it, might have learned from it, and might not have felt suicidal now (click on the "up arrow" to see the rest of his post).

 

Wow. How do you have time for this? It’s obsessive.

This is fear mongering at its finest. We need to protect our ears where we see fit, but you would have people believing they will get a permanent spike if they cough.

The only evidence you have for anything you say is from here and you take it as the gospel. Can you back anything up with evidence outside of Tinnitus Talk? You do realize this place only consists of a small fraction of people that have tinnitus, right?

 

Most of the time when I got spikes, I wasn't stressed out about the noise. I had a serious three-month long spike as a result of a loud phone. Even after I got a spike, I wasn't worried - I thought to myself: "How bad can it be? It is only a Phone!"

Likewise, the person I quoted in my last post wasn't stressed out about the music ("that wasn't even that loud") at a party he attended. Alue didn't expect to get a spike as a result of that loud machinery that he got close to voluntarily. This holds true for most of the cautionary tales above (one notable exception being Lex's story). So most of the time people get exposed, get a spike and THEN become stressed. It is not the other way around.

 

I do not know this person and i don't want to offend them at all. I don't know if this person has hyperacusis or not. I don't know if they have an ear infection or not. I don't know if this person has stress/anxiety or not. Bill so many factors that I do not know and we do not know. You cannot just throw an example like this one or the one's you posted in the original thread without knowing the full story. Unless you 100% know the person or their FULL story your points cannot be 100% valid....

 

I’ll post once because I know how this will end up. I agree with fish. Selecting a bunch of random quotes from people who are suffering is not a great idea and doesn’t really prove anything. Most people with tinnitus are stuck in a cycle of fear, so I would expect to see the kind of posts that you have copied and pasted; I was once one of them. All you are doing is perpetuating the fear that all sound is bad and that one should abstain from life; for 99% of people this is practically impossible without putting a serious strain on their mental health. It’s likely to make anyone who has hyperacusis feel worse (in the longterm), and the ultimate destination for most people will be a life with phonophobia. And believe me, that’s something people don’t want because it’s mentally exhausting and can ruin lives.

I understand the dangerous aspects of noise, but we can use protection to mitigate the risk in the majority of situations. If we ever put ourselves into an environment where the noise levels are too high to be safe, even with hearing protection, then we should leave or avoid going in the first place. Such extremes are very rare. Put it this way: you are unlikely to stumble onto the front row of a Slayer concert by accident! Noise like that aren’t likely to come into your life whilst you are out shopping at Walmart for example. The truly dangerous environments are often places we choose to go or have prior knowledge of. We must also understand that noise damage is time weighted, and accumulative, so people are more at risk if they are being exposed to dangerous levels of occupational noise, unprotected.

I believe the line gets crossed - in a hugely unhealthy way - when people start losing sleep over things like a toilet seat falling, or a van door shutting, for example. I have seen numerous posts from people, who are in a fragile state, that have taken prednisone on multiple occasions because of noises like I just mentioned. You have to understand that tinnitus is directly associated with the emotional processing centres of the brain and nervous system, so any kind of fear response that is linked with the tinnitus signal, can and will, cause a spike. The stress relationship is well documented.

I’ll finish by saying that we are in a bubble here because we are surrounded by sufferers which only compounds the issue. It’s a bit biased, to copy and paste people’s misery, from here, to use as data.

 

If you read my posts, you will see that the above is not true. I pointed out multiple times that people should listen to their bodies. The argument you are trying to make (TT represents a small fraction of people with T) had already been discussed many times on this forum.

Again, I had already addressed this in this very thread. I think that T is so horrible that it is unwise to take any chances. If you don't think that way, then of course you should not care too much about those posts that I had quoted.

 

This is not a proof, it is information that people are free to use or to ignore. Of course, each post alone is not very useful, but when they are all placed in one thread, it makes it easier for one to assess what to make of them all.

I believe @Jiri got a serious spike following the incident that he had described below:

 

Regarding the "stress" argument: It is T spikes that cause the stress and fear. If one's T is not spiking and one tries not to be reckless, one's stress levels will be low.

If one is not aware of the danger, exposes oneself to noise and gets a spike, THEN one becomes fearful and stressed out.

The way to minimize fear is to raise awareness.

 

I did read your posts in the beginning and I really wish I hadn’t.

This is like arguing with my 7 year old. You never get anywhere.

 

Your argument comes off like an argument a young child would make (seeing how there is no argument, just a personal attack).

 

I said I’d post once but I’ll just say this and leave it at that: what you are doing is fear mongering. New and impressionable minds could be scarred for life reading stuff like this. You go too far and often have people taking prednisone like it’s a multivitamin.

I once made a joke post of how it would be to live under your restrictions and it’s still true today.

 

"fear mongering: the action of deliberately arousing public fear or alarm about a particular issue."
So public service announcements about the dangers of smoking/drunk driving shouldn't be done because that's fear mongering?

 

That is correct. There is no argument. Just calling it like I see it.

Nice talking to you...

 

Depending on a person's situation a posting could be seen as positive negative where others will see it as negative positive, or just negative or positive.

Thoughts from some internet Psychologists:

Using positive thoughts like with optimism may be a misnomer. Expressing optimism can be counterproductive, unfitting and untimely for some due to many reasons. A warning or a blessing could be helpful to some and hurtful to others depending on the nature of their situation. Optimism helps us manage stress, but what happens when a person is told to see a favorable outcome at the expense of facts to the contrary.

There must be a balance between idealism and realism. Falling short in who we are in achieving the necessities of a normal responsible life due to pressure saying that we can achieve normalization needs to be considered.