Lenire — Bimodal Stimulation Treatment by Neuromod

Discussion in 'Treatments' started by Tinnitus Talk, Apr 20, 2019.

    1. Jack Straw
      Balanced

      Jack Straw Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame Advocate

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      1990s
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Infection, Acoustic Trauma
      They didn't say, but any level of hyperacusis seems too boost the results. So if you have hyperacusis you're already in a good position to get maximum benefit from this.
       
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    2. matbrz

      matbrz Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2011
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      AD's drug- Venlafaxine
      I'm from Poland too, a few more of us and we can rent our own plane :)
       
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    3. Shelly75

      Shelly75 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      20/07/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      On that one slide it showed the worse the hyperacusis was, the better the response. I think in the interview they said they took people with an intolerance to sound at 65 dB or less to be hyperacustic and said that in this group over 90% responded to the treatment.

      The PDF has been deleted now so I can’t copy the slide that showed the correlation.
       
    4. Lilah

      Lilah Member Benefactor

      Location:
      USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown, Lupus
      How about hyperacusis in the form of reactive tinnitus and sound sensitivity? I don't have pain.
       
    5. Autumnly
      Wishful

      Autumnly Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Location:
      Germany
      Tinnitus Since:
      July/August 2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      Ross O'Neill said in the interview: "We defined hyperacusis as sound sensitivity to loudness discomfort levels (LDL) of 60 decibels sound level (dB SL) or less." So that's how they defined their hyperacoustic patients and this group responded the most to the device. (Question 4: "Is the treatment more effective on tinnitus, hyperacusis, or both?")
       
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    6. hans799
      Mellow

      hans799 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Hungary
      Tinnitus Since:
      Born with it
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Worsened Dec 2016 by headphones
      Just read Irish Ken's testimony, 17dB reduction is amazing, if mine was reduced by 17dB I'm not sure it would be audible without plugging my ears.

      I was suicidal because of tinnitus just 2 years ago. Not only have I accepted the worsened noise since then, there's now real hope for volume reduction, too. Maybe things really do get better with time... :)
       
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    7. Don Tinny

      Don Tinny Member

      Location:
      Argentina
      Tinnitus Since:
      2017 (worsening)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud concert with ear plugs
      Mmm... I never had a hyperacusis test. I think the sounds that bother me are well above 65 dB, for example a dog barking near me. It depends on the frequency. If I hit the keys of my house I feel that my ear "beats".
       
    8. SignalExec
      Batty

      SignalExec Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/15/18
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Accoustic trauma?
      I've looked at the data in the presentation of Hubert Lim (linked above).

      I think the data is very promising. I am just a bit worried that they did not include a control group. There was no 'sham treatment' like in Dr. Shore's paper.

      In the first trial, the arm 3 was denoted as 'orthogonal' which seems to indicate that they expected this to act as a kind of control. However, the results of that arm are not much different from arm 1 - but the effects lasted longer in arm 1.

      All of this could mean that the treatment outcome is not very sensitive to the specific stimulation timing used (which is good). However, it would have been comforting to see a real control group. Indeed, all papers I have seen so far always report some placebo effect in the control group.

      What are people's opinions here about the lack of a proper control group?
       
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    9. Shelly75

      Shelly75 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      20/07/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      Mine is strange - the hoover or hairdryer doesn’t bother me but the sound of beeping at till checkouts, washing up, tv or someone laughing suddenly is really uncomfortable and spikes my tinnitus up. I’ve not been sure if it’s reactivity or hyperacusis?
       
    10. Arseny
      Wishful

      Arseny Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Possibly from problems with blood flow
      High frequency hyperacusis.

      You can install an app on your phone that measures sound in dB and also shows the frequency range. Then try playing sounds that bother you and you will see the exact frequency in the app.
       
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    11. Arseny
      Wishful

      Arseny Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Possibly from problems with blood flow
      Regarding hyperacusis at 60 dB that's mentioned in the presentation.

      It's not the same as 60 dB sounds.
      It's dB SL - sensory level. Meaning they take your hearing loss into account.
      It's very plausible to have hyperacusis to 60 dB SL if you have some measurable hearing loss.
      The biggest question is does it have to be at 500 Hz? Or does high frequency hyperacusis count too?
      Because a lot of people have high frequency hearing loss and high frequency hyperacusis and I'm pretty sure most of them have intolerance to 60 dB SL at high frequencies.

      If hyperacusis frequency doesn't matter then a lot of people will have much better results.
       
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    12. Shelly75

      Shelly75 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      20/07/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      Thank you very much for this info - I have had no idea at all what’s been going on with it!!
       
    13. Watasha
      No Mood

      Watasha Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      You're speaking to me, dog barks (especially the small ones) are my Achilles. I get the ears feeling too, especially with cellophane food wrappers. My overall sound sensitivity is closer to the 90 dB range, but high pitch frequency sounds get to me. @Shelly75 mentioned beeps at checkouts, also not my favorite.
       
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    14. ruud1boy

      ruud1boy Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      Huddersfield, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      Mild since 2006. Severe since late 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      An enthusiastic youth
      Alrighty then, where can I buy some of this hyperacusis stuff? ;)
       
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    15. Jack Straw
      Balanced

      Jack Straw Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame Advocate

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      1990s
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Infection, Acoustic Trauma
      Go to the corner of 5th and 76th street. You’ll meet a man name Theo. He will get you what you desire. ;)
       
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    16. Shelly75

      Shelly75 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      20/07/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      You can have a bit of mine for free if you want :D
       
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    17. Skinjob
      Batty

      Skinjob Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      2001
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Bowie, The Chameleons, etc.
      I'll give you mine, my TTTS, my gigantic Peltor earmuffs that I wear everywhere, my anxiety and depression, my occasional suicidal ideation, my reduced ability to enjoy life -- all of it. Absolutely free.

      Are you sure you want it?
       
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    18. PeterPan
      Nerdy

      PeterPan Member Advocate

      Location:
      Sydney
      Tinnitus Since:
      09/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Heat Exhaustion
      This was my thinking as well. “Arm 3” looks like it was supposed to be a control group. Which would mean that the short term effects of Arm 1 and Arm 2 are placebo effects.

      Arm 1 long term effects look like they are not placebo effects, but the funny thing is no other bimodal studies have shown long term effects...

      It seems there is something in bimodal techniques, but are they working with the Lenire?
       
    19. razo

      razo Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Audio exposure
      Aha. Then I get why @JohnAdams doesn’t like any talk of money and tinnitus. My sympathy.
       
    20. jmasterj
      No Mood

      jmasterj Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      2011
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic?
      You gotta catch up here... Another user here has had long term success with the University of Minnesota device which was run by Hubert Lim and who is now at Neuromod.
       
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    21. TheDanishGirl
      Sad

      TheDanishGirl Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Denmark
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2017 (H since 06/2017)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      long term noise exposure (headphones), maybe some stress.
      My hyperacusis is much like that too. It reacts the most to sudden big increases in volume, like laughter, barking, beeping, clanking dishes and such things.

      But it also depends on frequency for me. I can tolerate sudden louder noises fairly well if they are a low frequency (under 5,000-6,000 Hz I would say) but sudden high frequency noises don't have to be more then 60-70 dB, sometimes less then that... for my hyperacusis to react to it.
       
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    22. GlennS

      GlennS Member Podcast Patron

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      That's probably typical. That's how it is for me. I also think the sensitivity tends to echo the source of the ear damage. I got my damage from playing in a basement apartment with a live drummer. The snare and cymbal crashes. Consequently the worst noises for me are high-pitched percussive noises like... snares, cymbal crashes, plates clanking, squeaky brakes on buses and trains, etc... I can handle volume in things like a bass guitar much easier.
       
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    23. annV
      Fine

      annV Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2005
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      unknown - possibly hereditary
      Can you reverse engineer Lenire's timings too? Is that possible? If you can, boob pics will follow.
       
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    24. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      temporarily banished from this plane of existence.
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      karma
      The timing protocols for all these things are pretty well documented in the various research papers that have been published. I don't think Neuromod has actually published all their data yet, but once they do it will be in there...
       
    25. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      temporarily banished from this plane of existence.
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      karma
      Reverse engineering and messing with a TENS unit is totally unnecessary. The data published by the UMich team in their peer-reviewed papers and video they released, provides all the necessary information you would need to create such a device. You are quite correct that materials cost would be in the $100-ish range, but you'd probably want an oscilloscope setup to validate your timings.

      I think a few people were trying to do this; one even posted a bunch of pics and some half-baked Arduino source code before completely disappearing forever as far as I know.

      The tongue thing is, IMO and based on my experience, unnecessary; I would stick with the same kind of electrode to the TM area that UMich used. My guess is that Lenire is using the tongue thing because it can simply be rinsed and reused, unlike electrodes that need to be placed.

      But, I think it's an insane waste of time to even be thinking about this when we have multiple products this close tot he market. If this stuff works, we're gonna find out soon, and it's gonna be commercially available. If that doesn't happen then it means it does not actually work.

      The UMich Phase-I prototype devices were literally just small aluminum boxes which contained an Arduino unit, a battery, and then had an audio out port and a connection for the electrodes. Timing and intensity of electrical impulses controlled on board, this was setup through a PC as a one time deal at the beginning of the study based on my profile.
       
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    26. Redknight

      Redknight Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Lisburn, N.Ireland
      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      I got your back mate, you can put a tent up in my garden Andrew Elwood.
       
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    27. JohnAdams
      Bugridden

      JohnAdams Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Nasty Swamp
      Tinnitus Since:
      May 1st 2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Aspirin Toxicity/Possibly Noise
      I think it wears out and you have to buy a replacement. I feel like I saw that somewhere.
       
    28. Heinrich_S7
      Psychedelic

      Heinrich_S7 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      Uncertain
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise exposure
      I’m debating flying to Ireland when the Lenire is released. Are any of you planning on going ASAP?

      Hopefully the tongue zapper won’t need to be replaced too soon, maybe we can buy several?
       
    29. dayma
      Frustrated

      dayma Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      1/6/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      UNKNOWN
      A few of us on the boards here and on Reddit have done some DYI stuff. I am really hesitant to publish anything though as I am in no place to tell people if it's safe or not.

      To your point though. We are close to vendor supported solutions so it's not worth messing with unless you are in an engineering or IT field and just want to do it out of curiosity.
       
    30. KotaDomowa
      Dreaming

      KotaDomowa Member

      Location:
      Poland
      Tinnitus Since:
      Februar 2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      @Heinrich_S7 I'm planning on going ASAP. On the day the registration starts, I will sign up.

      I know that from the perspective of suffering for many years, it's pathetic but I can not wait any longer. No, if there is something on the market that can potentially help me.

      PS. I'm constantly worried that my unknown cause will respond to the treatment worse than classic acoustic injuries... Well. Have to try.
       
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