Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Long-Lasting Everyday Home-Practiced Experiences

Discussion in 'Alternative Treatments and Research' started by Jan64, Nov 22, 2017.

    1. Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      This is a new thread! Not about the efficacy of low level laser therapy in general, but especially for people who bought a low level laser therapy set and use it on a daily basis. And are committed to use and report about it for a very long time... years...

      For example people who use devices made by:
      Lux Spa Homelaser: http://www.lux-spa-ibiza.com/index....m_title=0&show_form_description=0&Itemid=1813

      Konftec: http://www.konftec.com/html/ko_product_tinnitus.htm

      Lucky Laser: http://www.lucky-laser.com/productview.php?id=LK-COMBI

      Other brands:
      ? please let me know...

      Please no comments like: it's a scam... etc... about using LED's, making devices by yourself, about dr. Wilden, and not about therapy centers in Norway, Germany, United States or Sweden...

      So only for people who use such a device on a (near) daily basis.

      To my belief LLLT only works when the power of the home device is above 30mW and used on a long term basis. Applying e.d only for 3 month 30 minutes a day no or only a small effect may be expected. So devices (e.g the Tinnitool) with a power of only 5 mW, 10 times for 30 minutes will not or hardly work (maybe a placebo effect).

      My hypotheses is that only long term almost daily use of these home devices (with sufficient power and therapy duration) will show some effect... My example is Hansi: http://www.progressrec.com/curing-tinnitus.html

      Hansi Cross:
      I had read some about it and found that there were many positive as well as negative things written on the subject. Now, having used it myself and learned about it by more studying and, which really counts, personal experience, I now understand how these misconceptions occurred.

      The three general one's is:
      a) People who tried the laser therapy but did quit too soon.
      b) Scientists who made studies but in the wrong way, and published these
      c) People having stupid ideas such as "It destroys the brain!"


      Unfortunately Hansi Cross passed away in the first half of 2017.

      ------------------------------------
      My experience:
      I use a Konftec 808 nanometer 90 mW device 45 minutes a day, consistently. I sleep with the device, so it does not cost any time... I started end of August 2017. I keep you updated and invite everyone to join and use a LLLT device on a (near) daily basis. Support each other. Getting through the first period (year?) of no results...

      Who also uses home laser devices on a (near) daily basis? And what are your experiences? When did you experience some effect? And what was the cause of the tinnitus? Any advice?
       
      • Like Like x 2
    2. Codaz

      Codaz Member

      What can go wrong with a laser, that's my worrying thing.
       
    3. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      According to me: nothing because the power is low: 0.1-0,4 Watt. The beam is diverting (not focussed). But better not look into it.
       
    4. morgothaod

      morgothaod Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2009
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Ear infection
      I thought tinnitus is a sound created by the brain and not the ear. If that is true, why would a laser being put in the ear help with tinnitus?
       
    5. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Dear Morgothaod, thank you for your reply. You are right that tinnitus in a phenomenom in the brain (auditory cortex and other regions). One (!!) of the causes is damage in the hair cells in the cochlea: the cochlea sents signals to the brain, but certain frequencies (where the hair cells are damaged) of the auditory cortex are not stimulated. Neurons have to be stimulated and if not they begin to 'fire' spontanuasly (this process is more complicated, synchronisation is also the case). And that is the tinnitus sound you hear. By giving the damaged and exhausted hair cells in the cochlea extra energy (ATP) hair cells wills on the long run (!) begin to function again. The damaged hair cells start signaling the auditory cortex: neurons reduce their spontanuous firing and consequently the tinnitus sounds lessen.

      But actually this is not a threat about the efficacy, see for more in information about efficacy the thread: Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus - Efficacy Debate
      Or see: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3063436/
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3830897/
      http://www.progressrec.com/curing-tinnitus.html
       
    6. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Because your question is for more people relevant I prefer to answer it in the thread.

      If you don't have damaged hair cells: LLLT will not work. It is possible you have 'hidden hearing loss' because measurements in most ENT practices go till 8 kHz. But normal hearing goes till 20 kHz. So in this hearing region you can have hearing loss which can be the cause of tinnitus (especially when you tinnitus frequency is above 8 kHz).

      The laser devices which are mentioned on Ebay: no power is mentioned so I can't assess the efficacy. It looks like power is < 5mW. You need at least 30 mW.
       
    7. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      In anaother thread a I saw a nice additional benefit written by @attheedgeofscience, a Dane well known on TT by his extended and in depth expertise. It explains well what I also think:
      One thing LLLT will do, however, is restore the functioning of damaged living tissue. What I have noticed - myself - is that although my tinnitus is not completely gone, my hearing is now somewhat better (although it was normal to begin with) and also I am immune to spikes in relation to semi-loud noise (eg. sitting in a restaurant). It seems there are a number of people on this board who pretty much develop spikes from otherwise insignificant noise, and my take is that this is in part due to already damaged cochlear hair cells. When body tissue becomes damaged, and is not given a chance to recover, that is when chronic inflammation may develop. Once that happens, the body cannot break the cycle, and the condition continues indefinitely. And this where LLLT certainly has the potential to benefit the inner ear as it restores the functioning of cells.
       
    8. morgothaod

      morgothaod Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2009
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Ear infection
    9. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Yes! The beam of a medical laser has a certain diverting angle. The one you found has a facused beam and can harm / burn your eardrum. Do not use laser pointers!
       
    10. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Hi, Jan!

      I’m a former patient of Dr. Wilden, when he still was in Bad Füssing. I travelled to Germany twice a year, during a period of 3 years. I took his therapy for severe tinnitus (antibiotics induced) and noise induced hearing lose, but wrongly diagnosed as otosclerosis. Although I didn’t achieve any improvement during the therapy, my tinnitus along the time got milder progresively to a point that I could ignore it even by night,... until last April. I was heavily sedated with Propofol for a gastroscopy, three days after that procedure my tinnitus became even more severe than my first on set, screaming away day and night with headache and terrible spikes that never thought I could go through. Finally things got some better, but still can’t have a normal life and need some sleeping aid when I go to bed if I want to sleep 5 or 6 hours the most.
      Some time ago, a lady friend of mine bought a Konftec 808 nanometer,90mw, like yours, and used it only a few times before stopped because she believed it was giving her headache. She gave it to me and so I started using it yesterday after I saw your post. I will use it 20 minutes x 2 (morning and evening) on a daily basis during a month and, after this, I’ll up the time to 30 minutes each exposure.
      In my opinion, don’t think it can do much for my ears due to my previous experience with Dr. Wilden, but, why not to give it a try if I have the device? It doesn’t take me any extra time because I use it while spending time on the computer. The feeling I get is nice, as it warms a bit my ears. I recall I used to fall sleep at Dr. Wilden’s Therapy Centre while getting the therapy, it was warm and nice. The Konftec device is not that powerful, of course, but well…

      I’ll keep you updated.

      Regards.
       
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    11. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Great to hear you will also use a Konftec 808 nm...
      You said: Although I didn’t achieve any improvement during the therapy, my tinnitus along the time got milder progresively to a point that I could ignore it even by night, --> My expierience is that you can't expect results in the short run. It takes time to heal. First your hearing will improve... This means that the auditory cortex will be more stimulated. But in the auditory cortex a synchronisation has taken place. This synchronisation has to be reverted... and that takes time...
      Keep us posted on your progress!
       
    12. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Dear Noise_sucks/Christian. Your PM: Hello Jan! Can I ask you something about your KONFTEC Laser?
      Groetjes,
      Christian
      I would like to answer this in public because it can be interesting for more TT-members. So what would you like to ask?
       
    13. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Thanks, Jan.
      I know this is a long way to go, but I haven’t any better options right now so let’s give time to time and see what happens.

      Regards.
       
    14. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      It is sure a long way, you need perseverance... it has to be comfortable. I already have some progress...
       
    15. Noise_sucks
      Dumb

      Noise_sucks Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      3/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise trauma
      Hello Jan,
      Has the laser already achieved any successes? Since when do you do the treatment?
      Did the order at Konftec work smoothly? I also consider giving the whole thing a chance..
      (8 months in at noise-induced T)

      Greetings!
       
    16. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Hello Christian,
      Yes, I had some benefit, but is goes slow. My hearing improved substantially, but that was also due to HBOT and prednisone. Now my main therapy is LLLT.... Once a day 45 minutes before and during sleep... 808 nm 90 mW.

      Have quite a lot experience with LLLT (something I made myself, an early device from dr Wilden, tinnitool, and now the Konftec), stopped it when T didn't bother anymore but started it again after 4 Aug this year.

      Ordering process at Konftec is very smooth, I payed with Paypall (when you do not have Paypall it is worth getting it, for this purpose). I think best to take the 808 nm. I also have the 650nm but I think that the 808 nm is more effective. Choose for the black one, my son has the black one and looks more professional. Be careful with the device, it is quite vulnerable. Especially where the wires go into the laser probes.

      I see you do not have your T for a very long time so that is positive. But is you T noise induced? LLLT focusses on healing the cochlea... I am not an ENT but in my opinion it is the 'bone conduction line' in your audiogram which tells you that whether there is damage in your cochlea.
      Kind regards,
      Jan
       
      • Informative Informative x 1
    17. Noise_sucks
      Dumb

      Noise_sucks Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      3/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise trauma
      Hello Jan,

      thanks for your kind answer and the provided information. Yes, my T is noise induced (acoustic trauma due to a loud concert) and is only on one side. I was standing to close to the speaker plus I had an infection that time which I was not really aware of. So I think there must be damage in the Cochlea.

      I also have experiences with LLLT by Lumomed in Germany (Son of Dr. Wilden) but I guess this is a bit of "fraudulent" if I can put it that way. It costs 200 EUR per Hour and this is why I stopped it after 5 sessions.
      My Audiogram looks good, no hearing loss so far. What do you mean by "bone conduction line"?

      Greetings!
       
    18. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      You 're welcome! In my opinion damage caused by an acoustic trauma is better treatable than long term noise exposure... I also think your T can be characterized as 'noise induced'.

      I can imagin the feeling of paying €200/h for medium level laser therapy. I talked once with Dr. Wilden and concluded having my own device is the best option... And when I saw Konftec also producing those devices and rather cheap... ;-) This made the decision more easy. On this board it is said that the Konftec loses power. But I have not experienced that. I use them since 2013. It still works, I had to repair it once (wire broken).

      With an audiogram is made, you first get a headphone on and you have to listen to beeps... after that the ENT puts a special headphone with a small piece of metal on your head (the piece of metal touches your head). And you will hear beeps through your skull.... By going through a certain procedure your ENT constructs the 'bone conduction line'. Vibriation of the 'small piece' of metal goes directly to your cochlea. So the path of eardrum and hearing bones (hammer, anvil, etc.) is skipped. This is a quite simple non-invasive method (but not excluding all other causes) to assess whether there is damage in the cochlea.
      Regards, Jan
       
    19. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Jan, I'm glad about your progress.
      I just wanted to say that long ago, I talked to Dr. Wilden, (who still lived in Germany) and I asked him about the Konftec laser devices, he replayed that Konftec was bullshit, with an upset tone. Business is business, is what I thought about his reply. He has overpriced his devices and he has to justify it somehow, so, in my opinion, bullshit is the easiest way to say it, but too vulgar coming from a MD.

      By the way, I agree with you about 808nm being better that 650nm when is used for our condition.

      Regards
       
    20. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Hi Anima, the laser product of dr. Wilden is much more expensive than the Konftec, and will be out of reach for a lot of people... I saw that the power of the 'Wilden' laser increased from 60 mW to 250 mW, that is a goods thing! I think the components of the Konftec are of good quality. As mentioned before the connection between the probe and wire (probe -> I do not know whether this is the right word, I mean the part where the laser is situated) is vulnerable. I advice you to reinforce it with e.g. leukosilk (made by Hansaplast)
      https://www.kruidvat.nl/leuko-leukosilk-zijden-hechtpleister/p/24336 or http://www.bsnmedical.com.au/produc...oduct-search-o/tapes/adhesive/leukosilkr.html .

      More in general (also for other TT members) to make LLLT a long term habit... I sleep on my right side, and the Konftec controller is placed between the mattrass and the (right) board of my bed. The on/off button can still be accessed. The wire comes out at about the height of the pillow. Before going to sleep I put the probes in my ears. The wires from both sides between my teeth. When you are ready then put the probes next to your bed on the ground of on a bedside table.

      With this procedure I can maintain this for month, respectively years...

      The first benefit I had was that my T started to become less reactive.

      Regards,
       
    21. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Hi, Jan, thanks for the information.

      I would like to comment to you the following, I hope you don’t mind.

      I have a whistle type tone in the back ground of my other tones, it shows up from time to time but it usually doesn’t stay for long. Last night, I got up to drink some water, my tinnitus was fine, but as soon as I went back to bed the whistle tone started ringing lauder than usual and, as it didn’t go away, I had to take some Diazepam to go back to sleep. At 6.30 am, I awaked up and it was not gone yet., what made me feel really upset, because it’s very intrusive. It’s now 13.30 and I can still here it together with all the other tones that are also louder than usual. Do you know if laser could have spiked it and should I be worried about that and stop the therapy?

      Thanks.
       
      • Good Question Good Question x 1
    22. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Hi Anima, looks like a temperory spike... I am not an ENT of GP but have been reading a lot of experiences on spikes... when there is no trauma or what so ever spike will be in 2-3 day kalmed down....

      Laser works on the cochlea, your laser is less than 0,01 W... tinnitus is in the brain... I do not think there is a connection with the use of the laser and your tinnitus spike... but I am not sure. Keep calm! And hope you get well soon!
      Regards,
      Jan
       
    23. lymebite
      Vegged out

      lymebite Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      United States
      Tinnitus Since:
      2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      @Jan64

      hi Jan, very interesting thread, thank you for creating it.

      I found a post about adapting the rubber tips for the Konftec to enable a wider beam of the laser to better hit the entire cochlea. I wonder if you have thoughts on this? If perhaps good idea?

      The full post is at the link but I have cut and pasted the part about modifying the rubber tips. I also added some paragraph line breaks to the original text of the post to make it a bit easier to read here on TTalk.

      http://community.actiononhearinglos...konftec-low-level-laser-therapy---did-it-work

      "If you suffer from tinnitus and especially if you suffer from hyperacusis, then please ignore the negative reviews about Konftec! The infrared emLass SAVED MY LIFE! The ringing was a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10 before I used the lasers, which turned the ringing into more of a cricket sound which I would call a five on a scale of 1 to 10. You cannot compare another tinnitus laser with the emLass because of two very important reasons.

      1) when it comes to cold laser therapy, dosage is just as important as it is with prescription drugs, and there is no other tinnitus laser that I have been able to find after years of searching with enough power to give you an adequate dose.

      2) there is no other laser in the world that stands any chance of enveloping the cochlea because of Konftecs patented optics, which caused the laser beam to spread out in a circular shape, so that you're aiming does not have to be perfect in order to hit the target! There is no other laser in the world that basically insurers that you will hit the target. Good luck having absolutely perfect aiming with any other laser that shoots out a perfectly straight beem!

      But the really freaky thing is that the rubber tips that they send you to attach to the diodes completely ruin all of their incredible technology, by blocking off most of the beam, and not allowing what little gets through to spread out. I've always wondered why they spent so much money on R&D and then completely ruined it by sending ear attachments that completely undo all of that hard work!? But don't worry because it's really easy to fix yourself.

      All that you have to do is to cut off the top half of the rubber attachment that goes on to the diode so that it will not block the laser, and the bottom half will still be enough to get a proper fit into your ear. You have to test it to see if you got it right by shining it onto a wall to make sure that the beam is spreading out, and that none of the beam has been blocked off I.e. you should see a perfectly round circle on the wall that gets larger and larger As you move the diode away from the wall. You may have to make some adjustments, but trust me, it's easy to get right."
       
      • Informative Informative x 1
    24. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Hi, Jan, thanks for the reply, I appreciate your interest.

      Last night it was better, no whistle, just my usual tinnitus, but still a bit spiked though. Temporary spikes happen with laser, I know. When I went to wilden’s, the first treatment I had gave me such a spike that I thought my head was going to explode. It took a few hours to subside, but it did. I haven’t any experience with Konftec, so I thought I would ask you just in case.

      I find Lymebite’s post very interesting, but I don’t quite understand about cutting the rubber tips. How are we going to adapt it to our ears then? Actually, it’s quite uncomfortable and not easy to adapt the current tips, being them shorter will be even more difficult. I’m looking forward to your reply.
       
      • Like Like x 1
    25. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      @lymebite Thank you for your contribution! I do recognise the problem with the ear tips. I cut with a pair of scissors appro. 5 millimeters from the base. So not the top half but a part of the bottem so the special shaped top wil go in het first part of the outer ear canal. Do you also use the Konftec? If so what is your 'protocol'?
       
      • Like Like x 1
    26. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Hi Anima, that lasers can cause spikes is new to me. Actually good to know. Did you discuss this with dr Wilden? What was his explanation?
      I read Lymebite's post, see my reply. Together with the laser for my son I ordered new ear tips to replace the old ones. I removed about 5 mm of the base of the ear tips. I can imagin that it is wise to cut the eartips, but I do not know whether is necessary for every model.
       
    27. lymebite
      Vegged out

      lymebite Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      United States
      Tinnitus Since:
      2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      I have the Konftec with the 660 nm and 808 nm diodes. My protocol generally has been to follow the guidance on the Konftec website (on the "Therapy Protocol" tab). I typically will follow this protocol for about 8 weeks then take a break of at least a month or two.

      http://www.konftec.com/html/Products-EN/EM-520.htm
       
    28. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Thank you for your answer. For how long have you been treating yourself? Do you know what the base of the Konftec-protocol is? I do not see a source. How did you come to taking a break of two months?
       
    29. lymebite
      Vegged out

      lymebite Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      United States
      Tinnitus Since:
      2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      I have been trying light therapy for about 18 months. As to the source of the Konftec protocol, I do not know. The breaks were advised to me by a LLLT clinician.

      So far, unfortunately I have not seen improvements. I am wondering if the reason is that the light is not hitting the cochlea, which is the why I am interested in the post about adapting the rubber tips so the light beam is wider. The cochlea is very small, the size of a pea, and the beam of light is quite narrow. So I think it is likely that the light may be missing the cochlea. I have not yet tried adapting the rubber tips as suggested in that post.
       
    30. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Yes, Jan, temporary spikes happen, Wilden told me that this is quite normal at the beginning and they usually precede an amelioration of the condition. He also told me not to panic if new tones show up because they are only temporary and it’s part of the healing process taking place. . I suppose he knows better, but new tones are always very scaring, aren’t they? Also a good sign, according to him, is when a steady toned tinnitus starts fluctuating.

      My Konftec device is a previous model to the current one, and has square shaped laser modules with reddish rubber ear-tips. It’s quite uncomfortable, the design isn’t good and makes it difficult to fit (and keep) the ear-tips inside the ear canal. No way I can experiment with what Lymebite suggests because, cutting the base, the ear tip wouldn’t fit the module, and,cutting the top, it wouldn’t fit the ear canal. I’ll live it as it is.

      Take care.
       
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