Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Long-Lasting Everyday Home-Practiced Experiences

Discussion in 'Alternative Treatments and Research' started by Jan64, Nov 22, 2017.

    1. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Hi, Lymebite. What you propose is very interesting and I wonder why Konftec’s design engineers don’t provide more efficient ear tips for their devices. It would be very interesting to hear whatever they have to say concerning this matter.

      I’m sorry to hear that after such a long time you haven’t seen any improvement of your condition, but I’m not surprised though. It doesn’t work for every body, as you well know. You may want to try another protocol with two exposures a day and for a longer time, perhaps that would do the trick, who knows.

      Once Wilden told me (if we want to trust him) that laser doesn’t harm, too much of it stops the healing process, exactly like too little, but don’t worry about the side effects because, according to him, there are no side effects. In my opinion, I don’t think that we can get too much light with Konftec, if we compare it to the high power devices that wilden used in Germany to treat his patients, sometimes even a double treatment was given (1 hour x 2) morning and afternoon, if the condition was very severe. Go figure!

      Regards.
       
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    2. Tom Cnyc

      Tom Cnyc Member

      Location:
      NYC
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Warehouse event after years of enjoying music.
      I've yet to see a single explanation as to why too much light therapy stops the healing. I'd love to hear why.
       
    3. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      About the ear tip problem, you can buy via the Konftec site all kinds of ear tips. http://www.konftec.com/order/HTML/order-wr-2xx.htm
      I just check whether light is delivered by using a piece of white paper. I point the laser at 3 centimeter distance and look at the size and shape of the image...
       
    4. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Tom, I haven’t an answer for your question. Wilden told me that giving too much laser doesn’t harm, in case you over expose, but it can neutralise the ATP production though; exactly the same happens when giving too little. He also said that no body knows which the optimal laser dose is, so he uses high doses to achieve better results than with low. The worst the condition is, the higher is the dose needed, he said. He could even give daily double treatments for acute serious conditions.
      How much is too much then? This could be answered if an standard optimal dose was established, but for this purpose a reliable and objective data is mandatory, but, who is going to pay all the research needed? Wilden (again) told me once that a large double blind clinical trial, which is what he is usually asked, due the lack of credibility of his therapy by the scientific community, is too expensive and unaffordable for him or any private therapist. Apparently, according to him, the multibillion profit hearing aids industry will boycott any funding concerning laser as a possible tool to fight tinnitus and hearing lose.
      When you first visit Wilden, he makes an speech about laser and the fantastic results in nerve regeneration of the spinal cord, which is true, but this is misleading because the spinal cord has an easy accessibility for the laser beam, but is a different story when it comes to the cochlea and hearing nerves.
      Meanwhile, and not until heavy serious research is done, the LLLT will be an endless story with defenders and detractors, all with a cause but non with an objective truth about such a controversial and yet little known therapy. Oblivion or investigation? Unfortunately, money has the key, as usual.
      Regards.
       
    5. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Thank you for the link. Jan. The laser modules that I have are like the ones in the picture, and the ear-tips are WR-210-214 like. I’ve projected the laser beam on a white wall and I get a perfect round red dot, I don’t see why we should cut the ear-tips, but in my case, as I explained, it's not possible even if I wanted to.
       

      Attached Files:

    6. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Hi, Jan.

      I’m sorry, I was wrong about my Konftec laser, it isn’t 808nm but 780nm. My friend told me it was 808nm, and I didn’t check.
      According to Konftec recommendations, I should buy the 808nm emLas to cover the full spectrum, which I didn’t Know. I thought any of them would do, and that only the penetration power was different, depending on the module. I didn’t know much about the home lasers as I didn’t have any intention to use one, till I got mine as a present and then saw your post. Now I’m glad I’ve started to experiment with it, but I’m a bit confused.

      This is my audiogram:
      Right Ear.
      Hz 125 250 500 1000 2000 4000 8000
      Db 20 20 30 60 60 60 70
      Left Ear.
      Hz 125 250 500 1000 2000 4000 8000
      Db 70 60 80 90 90 100 80

      Severe tinnitus Left Ear
      Hz 125 250 4000
      Db 75 95 105

      What do you thing, are extra 808nm modules necessary to enhance my 780nm unit?
      I would appreciate your opinion.
      Thanks.
       
    7. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Thank you for your reply, I know there is a picture on the Konftec site with the message that the tinnitus pitch (Hz) dictates which wave length to choose. But I never saw any evidence for that. No research paper or what so ever. Maybe Dr. Wilden can say something about it.

      Penetration of light in water (or blood) is best with the 808 nm followed by the 780 nm (on memory). I know that a laser therapist (Anne Harila from Norway of Sweden) suggest to use several wave length for maximum stimulation. Dr. Wilden is an advocate of 650 nm as the primary wave length. His home care system uses also 650.

      When you have money in abundance you can buy several wave lenght probes, but in my opinion the difference will not be significant... I have 2 probes/diodes: 650 and 808 and only use the 808 nm...

      What is your tinnitus pitch? Then we can see what Konftec advises.
       
    8. Noise_sucks
      Dumb

      Noise_sucks Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      3/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise trauma
      Hi Jan,

      in general: Do you think that the 90mW of the Konftec Laser are enough "power" to hit/reach the Cochlea? Dr. Wilden uses 250mW on his device for home therapy. What's your opinion?
       
    9. Tom Cnyc

      Tom Cnyc Member

      Location:
      NYC
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Warehouse event after years of enjoying music.
      that chart is kind of bullshit. reasonably its based on the penetration power of the more invisible wavelengths. the lower the pitch, the deeper in the cochlea the hair cells are. anything that can reach the low notes, can reach the high notes by this logic.

      supposedly the closer to red light, the more healing it is, which is why they suggest lower wavelength for the higher pitches - but reasonably the hair cells won't care about the wavelength, they'll care about energy measured in joules. just use it for longer.

      808 is used b/c the diodes are readily available thanks to DVD players and whatnot - not b/c its better. dont get caught up in this. 780 is absolutely fine.

      I use the redlightman combo light. its 100 bucks and casts a beam wide enough that you can't miss. I have no idea if it works or if its just a tincture of time, but I am getting better.
       
      • Helpful Helpful x 1
    10. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Hi Christian, Dr.Wilden upgraded his home care device from 50 or 60 mW to 250 mW... That is great! When money is not a problem I would now prefer Dr. Wildens device over the Konftec 808 nm. The 90 mW definitely hits the cochlea but it will take more time to get a proper dose.
       
    11. Noise_sucks
      Dumb

      Noise_sucks Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      3/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise trauma
      Hello Tom,
      that device is interesting indeed. But how do you deal with the wide beam of the light? At what distance to the ear do you hold the device? And what's your protocol - do you use it on a daily basis? Do you protect or cover your eyes while using?

      Hello Jan,
      so you would definitely recommend the 808nm Version? I emailed them and they came up with the following answer:

      upload_2017-12-6_18-48-0.png
       
    12. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Thank you for your reply, feel the same about spikes, they can be quite scary... But have also experienced when taking prednisone the T loudness temporary increases... and that is a sign 'something' happens...
      I got the same model as you have, but then with the blue tips (WR-209)... Keeping the tip in the ear is quite problematic with the Konftec model...
       
    13. Jim51042

      Jim51042 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      3/28/16
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Headphone use
      While this is not a laser the product below is a cheap way of getting multi spectrum light.
      https://redlightman.com/product/red-infrared-combo-mini/
       
      • Helpful Helpful x 1
    14. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
    15. Jim51042

      Jim51042 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      3/28/16
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Headphone use
      Theoretically since the power is 20 watts even if it gets attenuated enough makes it to the cochlea. Thought I haven't measured this. You could do test this on a cadaver with a meter in the cochlea.
       
    16. Noise_sucks
      Dumb

      Noise_sucks Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      3/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise trauma
      • Like Like x 1
    17. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Is there a research paper in which is concluded that multi spectrum non-coherent light will be effective healing the cochlea? But this thread is not an efficacy threat, see:
      Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Efficacy Debate and
      DIY Low-Level Laser Therapy for Tinnitus on a Budget — LLLT Under 100,-
       
    18. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Tom, Thanks for the information about 780 being fine. I know you have a lot of information concerning laser, so I'll take your advice.
       
    19. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Jan, Thank you very much for the reply and your time. I'll go on with my 780, I believe that Tom is right and there is no need to spend money on extra devices. I think I've things clear now, sorry for so many questions.
      Best regards.
       
    20. Noise_sucks
      Dumb

      Noise_sucks Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      3/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise trauma
      Hey @Tom Cnyc - any chance for a quick statement on this? I ordered the redlightman combo-light.
      Much appreciated!
       
    21. Tom Cnyc

      Tom Cnyc Member

      Location:
      NYC
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Warehouse event after years of enjoying music.
      honestly man, I don't have a lot of information, and anyone telling you they do is lying. This is experimental and unlikely at best. Tinnitus is subjective, so this can't really ever be tested scientifically.
       
    22. Tom Cnyc

      Tom Cnyc Member

      Location:
      NYC
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Warehouse event after years of enjoying music.
      I don't see why the wide beam is an issue. Lumomed uses a wide beam also.
       
    23. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Hi Christian,
      I also saw that figure on their website. To my opinion it is not based on scientific research... But why not do what Konftec recommends... I do also not have scientific research backing my feeling that the 808 is the best... Yesterday I used the 660 nm. Actually I did not feel a difference...
       
      • Informative Informative x 1
    24. Noise_sucks
      Dumb

      Noise_sucks Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      3/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise trauma
      At what distance do you keep the lamp while using? And how often do you use it for how long?
      Any information about this would be really helpful, thank you!
       
    25. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Hi Christian, for your information I put my 660 nm probe against my hand. And the light goes through my hand. Not just a bit, but quite bright, light also goes through the bones. Just try that with a non-coherent light source like an LED lamp... I experimented with all kinds of light, making my own devices... read a lot research papers... I thing I learned: you need coherent light. You might try non-coherent, but why should you? There are no papers backing effectiveness of non-coherent light for healing the cochlea.
       
      • Informative Informative x 1
    26. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      As mentioned in the beginning: this is new thread... for people having tinnitus and are treating it with low level laser therapy. Key for me is (near) daily use of a laser. And this has to be easy... Very easy, in bed, during sleep... not having to keep the laser probe in your hand...

      Above that it is neccessary that we support each other... lasering your ears almost every day can be hard... Is an idea that everybody who is 'in' reports every month about the progress. Is the T sound better, lower, softer,... has it changed... Who is in?

      Format:

      Status report LLLT

      Name:
      Device (brand, wavelength and power):
      Lasering since:
      Protocol (every day? Duration):
      Effects:

      For me:
      Status report LLLT
      Name: Jan64
      Device (brand, wavelength and power): Konftec, 808 nm, 90 mW
      Lasering since: started again after agravation on 15 August 2017
      Protocol (every day? Duration): every day in bed before and during sleep, 45 minutes
      Effects: loudness went down, more stable before the spike of last Saterday 10 December), now together with prednisone and pentioxifilline treating.
       
      • Like Like x 1
    27. Tom Cnyc

      Tom Cnyc Member

      Location:
      NYC
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Warehouse event after years of enjoying music.
      I hold it to my head, changing the positioning. I use it when I think of it. Sometimes three days in a row for 20 mins, sometimes once a week.

      On average 3x a week I guess.
       
      • Like Like x 1
    28. Wimais

      Wimais Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1/01/2001
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      Hi, My name is Wim and have been suffering from tinnitus when I was 16 years old. Dont know the cause... But Now i'm 32 years old and the last three years its getting worse, the sound in my ears is disturbing me now in my sleep. I wake up from the sound and I can say that I almost never sleep deep anymore. Almost no dreams anymore while sleeping. Knowing that before I had a lot of dreams when I slept. Hearing loss is also severe on my left ear where I have the ringing sound. So time for a solution, in specialized center in Belgium they just told me that they cant help me. Nothing to do about it... accept it... Ok, that was not the answer I wanted. So now on 8 januari I have a 2 Weeks ( 10 sessions) treatment with Laser therapy in Germany. Dr Kaiser will be given it. I will pay 2200 euro but I need to find some kind of relief, I will be happy even when the sound in my ear will be softer. So I can sleep again normal...

      I would wanna know if anybody knows this doctor and any good results with this therapy?

      Thank you all!! Regards

      Wim
       
    29. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Hi Wim, First: before trying lasertherapy you have to know whether the cause of your tinnitus is in the cochlea. E.g. noise induced. A good ENT can assess that.
      Amon Kaiser is the son of dr. Wilden. I once have phoned with dr Wilden, and pondered/considered getting treatment in Bad Füssing. But at that time it was to expensive for me and choosed to buy a laser device myself so I could treat myself for a long time at low costs. Your T is already quite 'old' so the treating time will be also quite long, so do not expect big results after 10 sessions, so you actually also need a home system... It is also a money matter... When you do have lots of money go to Kaiser or his father...His father has a practice on Ibiza... so you can combine therapy with a bit of a holiday...
       
      • Agree Agree x 1
    30. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      In another thread @attheedgeofscience says:
      Essentially you can approach therapy dosage in a number of ways:

      1) Increase the dosage by increasing the length of the therapy, but keeping the strength of the medicine constant, or
      2) Increase the dosage by increasing the strength of the medicine, but keeping the length of the therapy constant, or
      3) Deliver the same dosage split across several therapies instead of all-in-one-go, or
      4) Deliver the same dosage using different strengths of medicine - and varying the length of therapy accordingly.

      At some point the increase in dosage becomes detrimental - and it is therefore important to consider what part of the curve the treatment is at.

      For LLLT the dosage is calculated as: Energy (J)=Power (W)×Time (s)

      1563-b42c3ef53219c12d645310255eeb418b.jpg

      The diagram above is one specific instance of the Arndt-Schulz curve specific for LLLT (and not the generalized curve for other medicine).
       
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