Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Long-Lasting Everyday Home-Practiced Experiences

Discussion in 'Alternative Treatments and Research' started by Jan64, Nov 22, 2017.

    1. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Hi, Wim!
      Amon Kaiser is not a doctor, this said, you may like to have a look at my own experience with his father, Dr. Wilden: https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...riences-dr-wilden-etc.295/page-65#post-268592
      I wish you well.
       
    2. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Status report LLLT
      Name: Anima
      Device (brand, wavelength and power): Konftect 780nm, 90mW
      Lasering since: Nov. 27th 2017
      Protocol (every day? Duration): 45 minutes (30 morning + 15 evening) daily. From today, 30 mints. in the morning 5 days a week, stop Sat.+Sun.
      Effects:
      My tinntius has changed in the perception and tone. It lowered a lot the first few days, even my hearing seemed improved (could watch TV programs with a lower volume) I could sleep better at night as well, but, after that good few days, it has spiked during the day and has lowered down along the nights. Tinnitus has also been low when awaking. Greatly spikes after naps. It was very loud when awaiking up in the mornings before I started Konftect.
      I stopped the laser on last Saturday and Sunday, to see if my tinnitus would get milder and IT DID during all that pause long.
      Yesterday (Monday), I started the same previous protocol and my tinnitus was fine again all the morning long, but it spiked in the afternoon (no reason) with ups and downs untill night. I went to sleep with a loud tinnitus and it kept loud all the night long, but the tones (a have a few) have changed, the jet engine tone is now less aggressive, but still bothersome altogether.
      This morning, I awaked up with a "reasonable" loud tinnitus, and I had my 30 minutes lasser session at 08.00 am. It's 10.15 am. and my tinnitus remains the same; no changes up to this moment.
      From now on, I’ve decided that I’ll only have the 30 minutes session in the morning (I'll stop the 15 minutes) and will have a rest from Sat. to Sun., in order to see if I can get an improvement like I got the first few days, maybe I've gone too fast, let’s see what happens…

      My overall impression about the Konftect device is that, in a way or another, it’s definitely working, only time can tell if it’s for good or for bad.

      I’ll keep you updated.

      Regards.
       
      • Like Like x 2
    3. Noise_sucks
      Dumb

      Noise_sucks Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      3/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise trauma
      Hi Wim,

      I had a treatment with Lumomed in Germany and it didn't help me overall, but I have to admit I only did 5 Sessions (after 4 months of noise-induced T). In my opinion you need a constant treatment, you cold easily get a Konftec Laser for that amount of money or even a Lucky Laser. Plus you can use these devices at home (no traveling needed) anytime and anywhere you want, the Konftec is also highly portable.

      If you decide to do it, get an Audiogram done before (at a local ENT, not the one Kaiser will do) for comparison. Also you should know the reason for your T, there has to be some kind of inner ear-damage (noise, drugs) for it to be effective.

      It's totally up to you, you can give it a shot. I wrote a bit about Lumomed Germany before, in my eyes it's a bit "fraudulent" because they just charge way too much.
       
      • Agree Agree x 1
    4. Noise_sucks
      Dumb

      Noise_sucks Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      3/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise trauma
      Hi Anima,

      maybe you are doing too much?

      At Lumomed they told me that they are doing 3-4x30 min per week even in acute phase. They said that the ear needs rest to use the extra amount of energy, maybe that's the reason. No one knows anything for sure, just a quick thought.

      They also stated that it's necessary to protect your ears from redundant noises during that time, so protecting your ears with plugs in loud situations (e.g. a loud street, cinema, bars) might be a good idea. Otherwise the ear will "waste" the energy for hearing of sounds/noises.
       
    5. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      You also have to consider the power Anima uses. That is only 90 mW. Treatment at a therapy center is of much higher power... Power * Time = Dose or Watts * Seconds = Joules. Wilden gives 4000 J per session. See: http://www.dr-wilden.de/ehtmls/Geraet.html

      Half an hour with a Konftec is only 0,09 * 1800 = 168 J. That is only 5% of the dose at Wilden's therapy centre.
       
      • Informative Informative x 1
    6. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Hi Anima, thank you for the update! Keep up the spirit! Just look at the long term... Your hearing loss is severe, so there does not go a lot of stimuli towards your auditory cortex... so the tinnitus you can expect is also quite severe. Laser helps healing the cochlea so the output towards the auditory cortex will (hopefully) increase and as a result of that the tinnitus will (also hopefully) kalm down. Persevere!
       
    7. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Hello, Noise-sucks, Maybe you’re right and I should have given a rest to my ears in between treatments. Who knows really, we are all different one from each other and what is good for you might be a poison for me. In my case, I’ve no doubt now that my ears are reacting badly to my laser protocol or just to the laser itself. I’m very confused.

      I wanted to thank you for your concern just before I write and post an update of what I’m going through since last night, which has forced me to stop abruptly experimenting with the Konftec device.


      All the best.
       
    8. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Hi, Jan: I’m sorry, I can’t go on with this at the moment. May be, in a few weeks, if things get better, I might start again with a lower dose. Please read my new update.

      Best regards.
       
    9. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      An update.

      Yesterday morning, 2 hrs after the 30 min. use of the Konftec device, I had a tinnitus lowering together with a very strange feeling in my head and my ears; it seemed as if my hearing was reduced and a sort of fullness feeling was inside my head and ears; this got better later, but my tinnitus badly spiked during hours after midday. I could hear the ringing in my head and my ears, which was very stressing to say the less. Later on, in the evening, the ringing lowered slightly till I went to be at 23.00 pm.
      I awaked up at 2.30 am with a low hum, new to me, which developed to a really loud and terrifying attack of noise fulfilling my head and ears. I didn’t know what was going on, and my first thought was that my head was going to explode. I started crying like a child and going through the darkness of my house like a ghost. I was in panic and I was wishing I dropped dead. The suffering I was experiencing was extreme and all I wanted was to die, as the only way I knew to get rid of it. I managed my self to take same more Melatonin plus a 5 mg Valium pill ( I had been off of benzos after a long tapering off) but I still had some left. I was shaking. I fortunately got slept pretty soon. I awaked up again at 5.00 am. and the hum was lower, but after a few minutes it started getting louder, so I took some more Valium and went back to sleep till awaiking up at 7.15 am. I got up with a bothersome hum but nothing to be compared to the night attack.
      At the present, 10.50 am., my tinnitus is louder than usual and it’s still in my head and ears. I’m scared that it might not go back to its previous state, if it didn't, it would be a bigger issue for me. I feel like if a fridge engine was now placed in my head and the noise was getting out through my ears. I don’t think I’ve to go on with the Konftec, so I stop it from now on till I decide if I take it back but that would be with a lower dose/time.

      Noise-sucks might be right and, perhaps, I’ve over used the device. Any way, What’s done is done, now I hope and wish that whatever laser has done to my ears won’t be permanent and will desappear soon.
      I'm frightened about tonight.
      Best regards.
       
      • Helpful Helpful x 1
      • Hug Hug x 1
    10. Noise_sucks
      Dumb

      Noise_sucks Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      3/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise trauma
      I dont know if that was too much, might be the case. I'm just diving a bit "deeper" into the field of Photobiomodulation, so don't take anything I say for sure or granted. I'm just a fool - like all of us actually. We're just guessing and trying to catch at a straw, I think that makes us human afterall.

      For instance: Dr. Michael Hamblin (who is an outstandig researcher, Google him in case you have never heard of him before) stated in a recent interview the following:
      Hamblin on Dosage.PNG

      So, let's assume that the Cochlea is a "thing deeper in the body". Then something like 30 Joule might be a sufficient amount of Photoenergy delivered to trigger certain reactive processes.
      By using a Konftec-Laser at 90mW you are delivering 0,09 joules per Second, that's 5,4 joules per Minute. So for 30 joules it would need a treatment of only 5-6 Minutes. Can you sum that up? Does he mean 30 joules per second? Minute? Day? Hour?

      Also it's not clear what he means by "deeper in the body". How many cm is the Chochlea apart from the outer ear? Any guessings?


      Sorry to hear about your update, @Anima. Hope you are doing better soon!
       
    11. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Dear Anima, thank you for your update! Sorry to hear about your condition. I hope your T calms down again. All the best and kind regards, Jan
       
    12. Leodavinci
      Bookworm

      Leodavinci Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Kansas
      Tinnitus Since:
      6/26/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Idiopathic + Sudden hearing loss
      Anima, hope you are doing better. I suspect that the spike is temporary. It will get better. Hang in there and persevere. I agree you should stop the laser therapy completely at least for a while and if you decide to resume it then take lower dosage and less often until you know you can tolerate it. As for me, from a statistical point of view and from what I know about research methodologies, I am certain that laser therapy can heal hearing loss and reduce tinnitus in some people and depending on a yet poorly understood, precise administration.
       
      • Agree Agree x 1
    13. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Hello, Noise-sucks. Thanks for caring about my condition. I’m posting an update in a minute about how things are now.

      I find your informative post very interesting and helpful. I didn’t know about Dr. Hamblin, I’ll do my search and will read all I can about his findings concerning laser. It is really interesting indeed, thank you very much to bringing it to my attention, it will help me greatly to start a new protocol as I don’t think I’ve to give up laser even after the bad reaction I’ve had, because, somehow, it’s a proof that Konftec works, and once again the dose makes the poison. In my case, it’s obvious that the dose has to be lower than I thought and see if I can build it up little by little.

      Take care and Thank you once more.
       
    14. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Thank you, Jan. Things are now a little better, but still bad tinnitus yesterday.

      I’ve changed my mind about giving up laser for a long time as I said I would.I won’t. I’ll start a new protocol next week, but, this time, I’ll be more cautious.
      Our friend's Noise-sucks post is very interesting and has given me another perspective of how to face the use of laser from now on. I didn’t know I had such an extreme sensibility to laser light. I definitely didn’t have it before my tinnitus aggravation, whatever the damned Propofol did to my ears, it has to be very serious, according to what I’ve experienced with the Konftect. Anyhow, I’m glad that, apparently, no permanent damage happened, so this gives me new hopes to go on experimenting till I find the right dosage for my tolerability levels.

      What about you, any improvement yet?

      Take care, my friend.



      An Up date.


      The night before yesterday was so an so, I still had to take some Valium.

      Yestarday, I awaked up with a low tinnitus and had quite a good morning. The hum was incredibly low after breakfast. I Had to go to visit an ophthalmologists and I used a public bus because I knew I couldn’t drive afterwards. I used ear protection all the time. Tinnitus was still low for the rest of the morning. When I was back home, 14.00 hrs, I sudently felt that my hearing was worst than usual, my ears were not clogged but I had the same feeling as if they were. The tinnitus spiked for ours after lunch and my hearing was still not good. It got better in the evening and I went to bed early. I was able to sleep without benzos, only some Melatonin, which is very good. This morning I got up early because the tinnitus was bothersome. My hearing was back to its usual level and the “clogging” feeling was gone.

      It’s about 10.00 am now and the ringing is back at it’s normal level: middle loud, changeable and as reactive to noise (even my own voice can spike it) as usual. So, things seam that are back to were they were before, let’s hope for good and that no more bad spikes happen later on.
       
    15. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Leodavinci, I’m better today. Thank you very much for caring and for encouraging me to persevere.
      I've no doubt that you are right about dosage and the usage frequency I should stick to until I find what my ears can tolerate better. As you well say, the precise administration is poor understood. Unfortunately, this has left us without a minimal standard therapeutic dose and we can only experiment and, sometimes, suffer for its cause a bad reaction like the one I’ve gone through these last days. Thankfully it was only temporary, but it was a really bad and scaring experience.

      It was nice to talk to you, thank you.
       
    16. Noise_sucks
      Dumb

      Noise_sucks Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      3/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise trauma
      Anima, good to hear that you are doing better man! I know what a damn spike can do to you, it's ****
       
    17. Noise_sucks
      Dumb

      Noise_sucks Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      3/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise trauma
      Anyway, so here is my report:

      Status report LLLT
      Name: Chris
      Device (brand, wavelength and power): Redlightman IR Combo, 620 ◦ 670 ◦ 760 ◦ 830 nm (200 mW/cm² @5cm)
      Lasering since: 16.12.2017
      Protocol (every day? Duration): every day for 15 min, changing position of the lamp. Distance about 0,5cm to the ear
      Effects: Had a good night and a pleasant morning! T is less intrusive, cannot say if its due to the Light Therapy or just the normal up and down :) Time will tell!
       
      Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
      • Like Like x 1
    18. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Thank you Chris! Hope it will work. I also ordered the Redlightman IR Combo. Just to compare it with the Konftec (and maybe to treat lower back pain...).
       
      • Like Like x 1
    19. Codaz

      Codaz Member

      This one?

      https://redlightman.com/product/red-mini-670/
       
    20. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      • Informative Informative x 1
    21. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Thanks, Chris.
      Chris, I hope you really get a permanent improvement. Yes, time will tell, because with this torment one just don't know what to expect.
       
      • Like Like x 1
    22. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      An update.


      Since I stopped lasering, my tinnitus has been as changeable as usual, but extremely low sometimes. Some nasty spikes happened too, but lasted for a short time. Night time, generally, has not been that bad. Yesterday (Tuesday, 19th) my tinnitus spiked after lunch and my normal hearing diminished as well with apparently no reason. At 18.00 hrs, I decided I would re-start my laser routine. This time, only 20 minutes once a day. Short after I finished the lasering, the spike went away and tinnitus diminished a lot. I went to bed 4 hrs. latter. I couldn’t get asleep though because tinnitus started spiking badly, I had to take some extra Melatonin and a ¼ of a 5 mg. Valium pill. I awaked several times during the night and I noticed that tinnitus was getting better. At 4.30, I took some more Melatonin with another bit of Valium because I couldn’t asleep. Sleep was light till I got up at 6.45. Tinnitus has been quiet since then.
      Apparently, 20 minutes at once seems still too much for me, so I’ll divide it by two, morning and evening, and see what happens. I just had my first 10 minutes exposure and my tinnitus has spiked a little, let’s see what happens along the day and tonight. I’ll keep updating if any changes.

      All the best to you.
       
    23. Noise_sucks
      Dumb

      Noise_sucks Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      3/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise trauma
      That's good news - looking forward for your impressions!

      I recently thought it might even be better to use the 830nm device, since it has more power and the penetration depth of the IR-range light is better. I dont know if the IR combo has enough power to reach the inner ear since you can effectively only use the power of 3 or maybe 4 leds if it's very close to your ear. Don't know, just a quick thought.
       
    24. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Hi David,
      I prefer to answer your question in the forum section of TT, because the answer is also relevant for the other TT-members... What is best to go depends... Dr. Wilden offers an 250 mW, 650nm for €2700,-. Konftec offers 808nm, 780 nm and 650nm for about €500,-. And a device with two wavelenghts for ca. €800 ,-. Lucky Laser also offers attractive devices for approx. 2000,-.

      Problem is that you do not know whether light therapy will work for you... So when your financial situation is tight, you can opt for e.g. a Konftec. I know the general opinion about this device is that is loses power, but I did not experience that. I also use a 650 nm and a 808 nm from Konftec. actually the wires are vulnarable, so you have to be quite careful, and maybe strengthen the connection between the wire and the probe (where the laser diode is). See for the websites of several lasers the first post of this thread. Regards, Jan
       
    25. Codaz

      Codaz Member

      What is so strange that tinnitus is a thing of the brain but fluctuates when you treat the ear with a laser.
       
    26. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Hi Codaz, yes, I do also find that strange... When you look at the experience of Hansi Cross (who passed away due to cancer (on memory) in the first half of 2017), the reactions/replies of dr. Wilden indicate that a temporary increase of tinnitus loudness is a normal part of the 'healing process'. See: http://www.progressrec.com/curing-tinnitus.html Also with cortison/prednison you can expect reactions. This may frighten you. My ENT in Germany says that hearing cells start to function (more or less) again and will also stimulate the auditory cortex. Tinnitus is also in the auditory cortex so tinnitus loudness will increase for a period of time. After a certain time spontaneous firing will decrease... But all of this is not very scientific...
       
    27. Codaz

      Codaz Member

      I wonder why no fMRI research is done to see the effects of cortisone. They see increased brain activity.
       
    28. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Jan64

      Jan64 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Utrecht, the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      1983
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise
      Question is whether cortisone leads to temporary increased firing in the auditory cortex... but this is 'off topic'...
       
      Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
    29. Cal18
      Nerdy

      Cal18 Member Benefactor Advocate

      Location:
      San Diego
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      2010 / 2016 Both SSRI Withdrawal and Mild Hearing Loss
      @Anima I'm using Wilden's Lucy laser and I've been getting a new tone which is a very low frequency. It comes on as a low freq. fleeting tinnitus and then sticks around for a couple hours or so. I remember this happening when I was using the laser several months ago then stopped and I remember the low level fleeting going away. It's very weird as fleeting T is usually high pitched. I hope I'm not messing anything up!
       
    30. Codaz

      Codaz Member

      I would like to know what Wilden's opinion is about this.
       
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