Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Long-Lasting Everyday Home-Practiced Experiences

Hey @SoundB0und (and anyone else reading with LLLT experience) - I've gone through endless pages of LLLT discussions this evening trying to discern whether there is anything I should try out in my next run of treatment. Do you have any input on the following:

1. Cutting 5 mm from the base of the eartip - I assume this means 5 mm off of the part you stick on to the emitter, and not off of the part you stick into your ear. Looking at my eartips, I can't figure out why this would help, as it is widest at the base and then narrows about 5 mm in.

2. The Zazzio treatment protocol - I've seen a couple of iterations (for example, 21 minutes with the 660 nm device and 11 minutes with the 808 nm device), but someone who received treatment from Dr. Zazzio stated that 6-8 minutes with the 808 nm device, coupled with 10 minutes with the 660 nm device, repeated every third day for 10 weeks, was optimal. This sounds like a lot less than what you and many others have done, and I'm curious to know if you have any input.

Thanks!

 

Correct.

Well the light will come out like a cone kind of, and the further the hole is from the emitted light source, the more the light the "tube" of the ear tip absorb instead of just being uninhibited. Basically I don't think cutting the ear tip will make the light more powerful but it will make the "cone" of the light wider and so it's just much harder to miss the cochlea. If your cochlea is already getting enough light with the normal ear tips, then I doubt it makes any difference.

Well I can't comment on that protocol exactly, and it's not my approach, my approach is not a static approach. I literally feel when my ears are "craving" the laser, as strange as that sounds. I've been doing mostly 22 minutes a day recently, sometimes switching it by a minute or two. I've said this before, but any sort of "do xyz" with the laser is probably the wrong advice, people need different medications for the same disorder, or different doses of the same medication and in my estimation the laser is no different, also the optimal dose might change over time and so on.

My second pair of 808 nm probes broke, this time seemingly from the spot where the audio jack like thing attaches to the wire. Nothings visibly disconnected but the controller turns off sometimes when I use those probes and when I play with the wire from that spot, the controller doesn't start at all sometimes, so that's probably the issue. I'd rather not use them anymore for this reason. They are so expensive on the Konftec site as well, over $400 USD and I haven't bothered buying new ones. If the 660 nm ones would break as well I'd definitely buy new ones and probably 660-s. These devices really are fragile, I remember one time 2 years ago when that spot of the 808-s got twisted to an awkward angle when the controller was in my sweater pocket, it must've finally given out now recently.

 

Thank you, @SoundB0und - your reply about my earbud questions was super-helpful. I understand now why cutting makes a difference, and think I'll try it - honestly, I have no clue whether the light is hitting my cochlea with the unmodified ear tips.

Also, interesting to hear that you seem to prefer the 660 nm headset to the 808 nm one. For some reason, I thought you preferred the 808 nm, though I've been reading so much this past couple days that I'm losing track of which LLLT posters say what about their devices

I appreciate your response that each individual will need something different from these devices. The specificity-loving part of me really doesn't like this, but it makes the most sense. I think I'm going to try another run of treatment with modified ear tips and see what happens.

Thanks again!

 

Quick update to say that I did a 15-minute treatment with the 660 nm headset and the modified eartips.

The one thing that scares me about LLLT is emitting a laser so close to my brain, and using the modified ear tips (which are emitting an even wider laser beam) only intensifies this fear.

I'm sort of processing out loud here, and welcome any thoughts or reflections from @SoundB0und or anyone else who has regularly used LLLT.

 

I have had good results with Konftec 808, applying it to my ears for 6 minutes daily, combined with 60 minutes of brisk walking each day and 3.75 mg of Mirtazapine with 2 mg of Melatonin and a dash of Magnesium chloride for sleep.

Sleep is of paramount importance, without restful sleep there is no improvement. I've been doing this for 3 months and I'm still doing it.

I try not to expose myself to noise above 70 dB without protection, no matter the source. My tinnitus has almost lost reactivity and the improvement has been remarkable, although some days there are unexplained increases, they are short-lived and more benign than before.

I will add that my diet is vegan, partially raw food.

From my extensive experience with laser therapy, I can say from my own experience that any increase or new sound that appears during therapy are always temporary, they can last more or less, but they are always temporary. However, always use your common sense and go slowly.

Good luck to all in this ordeal.

 

There are doctors who treat the brain with laser helmets, with very similar wavelength and power lasers. In the case of the brain, it's used to treat a lot of disorders, from stroke and traumatic brain injury to just depression and migraines etc.

I'd not worry about it. You can do your own research, but lasers in general have been used for a long time for various things.

 

Hey @SoundB0und -- I want to thank you for all your insightful posts. I will be keeping them in mind if I ever pursue LLLT therapy (a good likelihood). Given many of the things you've written, I thought you might find the following thread that I started of interest. Thanks again...

Tone Pacer PRO App — Has a Very Soothing Effect on My Auditory Cortex

 

@Anima - thank you for the reply. I really appreciate your insight and experienced wisdom regarding all things LLLT. I've not mentioned this directly to you, and want to take the opportunity now to let you know how much your consistent reporting through the ups and downs of your LLLT journey moved me into purchasing and beginning to use my own laser device. So, consider this a warm and belated thank you!

I especially appreciate your consistent message that any spikes related to LLLT are temporary. This adds a huge layer of comfort for me.

@SoundB0und - thank you again for consistently showing up to respond to my questions, address my anxieties and encourage me forward with LLLT. ÄIt is reassuring to hear you offer up the example of the laser helmet application for TBIs. I even did a bit of googling and found this article, which determined that 660 nm and 810 nm were specific wavelengths that demonstrated effectiveness in treating TBI - wow!

This gives me much more confidence to follow this LLLT path just a bit further - I really appreciate your support.

@Lane - I have also noticed you checking in from time to time, a quiet and steady companion, and have appreciated the perspectives you've shared on other threads. I am very interested in giving the Tone Pacer Pro app a look. I noticed that thread a few weeks back and for some reason, the app link wasn't working and I kind of let it slide out of my mind, but after revisiting your thread and looking through the app page, I'm going to consider it as a potential source of additional treatment.

It sounds like it works as much (or more) in calming you as it does with your auditory symptoms, but the image I have of you getting physically and auditorily chilled out by using it is appealing. Plus, I've been interested in experimenting with bone conduction headphones at very low levels, though there is a part of me that feels that may pose some risk.

At any rate, I will certainly take a look, and very much appreciate you weighing in here.

To you all: whether or not you all intended it this way, I'm feeling very well supported this evening. Thank you again!

 

Hi, all!

Just wanted to give a quick update to say that, since getting some reassurance, advice and encouragement from members here, I've returned to nightly LLLT treatments. I've done four so far: in order, 15 minutes (660 nm), 12 minutes (808 nm), 18 minutes (660 nm) and 14 minutes (808 nm).

Today, I experienced one of the quietest days in the last four months. I'm never sure how much (or little) to attribute to any one thing, and my hope is that chilling out about my initial, overly-methodical approach to laser treatment coupled with (maybe, just maybe) the treatment itself is paying off.

For context, my tinnitus had been pretty steady and moderate in volume since partway through my initial 10-day course of LLLT.

I'll continue to let you all know about my process from time to time.

 

Does anyone know if it's possible to get a laser in the UK? I can't seem to find a place to order one.

 

Konftec is based in Taiwan and ships all over the world, including the UK. Red Light Man is based in Manchester, UK (and also ships all over the world). Both have online ordering from their websites.

 

Posting a quick update for those who have been checking in on this thread.

I've been increasing my "dosage" of LLLT and alternating between the 660 nm and the 808 nm devices now for about a week. I'll do a couple more days and then take a break.

Over the course of my week of treatment, I have perceived a marked improvement in my tinnitus and sound sensitivity. As others have described, I've been perceiving the tinnitus sound to be "thinner," and overall, it has been less bothersome to me for longer periods of my days.

Similarly, the "swish" sound that was a very prominent overtone at certain frequencies (especially the "s" sound) has subsided considerably. I am feeling more and more functional by simply plugging my ears and going into moderate, normal noise.

As I have said many times, I have absolutely no idea to what extent any of these improvements are the result of LLLT. I've also been wondering whether I have moved into the first stage of the elusive "habituation" process. I can definitely hear my tinnitus, so if a stage of habituation is that you stop hearing it (unless you really listen for it), then I'm not there.

At any rate, currently, I'm happy that I made the decision to do LLLT, and will likely continue (on and off) at least for the near future (next 1-2 months), and re-evaluate from there. Again, I may simply be describing natural healing, and falsely correlating it with LLLT. Placebo or no, something is shifting in a positive direction.

 

Hi all, another update:

I completed 10 days of LLLT, and, as I mentioned in my previous post, things seemed to be moving in a very positive direction. So much so, in fact, that I decided to add two additional (unplanned) days onto my regime before taking a break.

In the past 24 hours, the volume of my tinnitus has creeped back up again. It's discouraging, and there's a part of me that regrets adding in the two extra days of treatment, but just as I'm not all that convinced that the LLLT is the actual source of my improvements, I'm hoping that it's just a coincidence that my symptoms have intensified.

The tinnitus increase is notable. I've had some recent moments where it was barely noticeable, and now it's at a 4/10 or 5/10 - still far from where it was in the acute phase after my acoustic trauma, but I admit that I was getting attached to the reprieve.

That's all for now. I'm mostly posting tonight because I want the highs and the lows of this experience documented for all to see. I'm hoping that I can deliver another more positive update soon. For now, I'm going to take a break from the LLLT.

 

Hello, @10Kcd!

What is happening to you is normal, do not worry, you are on the right track. I think you should rest for a week, then restart the treatment every other day, that is, 3 days a week. Rest one week a month and then increase the exposure time in each ear by one minute. As a safety rule, I don't think you should go beyond 10 continuous minutes of exposure with infrared, although with red there is no problem for longer exposures.

Spikes are always innocuous and are part of the improvement process, keep that in mind and don't panic. However, give yourself a break when you are not comfortable with the new tones, usually fleeting, that will appear throughout the treatment. Restart the treatment after a few days.

Good luck and best regards.

 

Hi @Anima - thank you for your encouraging and wise words. I appreciate both the reassurance you provide, and the specific treatment tips!

I'll take your advice and have a break, and as I restart I'll dial down my treatment times a bit per your recommendations.

Thanks again, and I hope you are doing well.

 

I'm considering getting a Konftec laser of 808 nm. I'd much rather have one that can reach the 4 kHz area. LLLT helped me in the past by relaxing the tension caused by noise exposure. I don't remember it helping much with the tinnitus, but I think it has helped alleviate discomfort, and reduce further damage.

LLLT helps blood flow, and often even aids in tissue and nerve repair for exterior injuries, and is commonly used for sports/exercise, so it's plausible that it could help reduce the amount of damage, if not fully prevent or reverse it a little.

I'm not convinced that it could regrow hair cells. That's not realistic. Maybe it can repair some of the damage for the hair cells that are still functioning. I thought I read somewhere that LLLT helped repair myelin sheath, which is crucial for hair cells, so it's possible that it could have that affect in the cochlea too.

Hough Ear Institute's research made me wonder about the efficacy of treatment stacking. Why did NAC have such a crucial impact on the effectiveness of their researched treatment? It also appears that some stem cell and PRP clinics are now using LLLT to stimulate the cells that were injected in.

Could it be, that, at least for me, the best way to seek treatment is through HBOT, NAC, Vitamin D, LLLT, and (if there are more promising consumer reports) PRP/stem cells? Exercise appears to also be important for this, since it helps with blood flow, growth factors, and cellular repair/health.

I will have a lot to think about as soon as I can afford another LLLT device, and these other things.

 

Hi @Artemis2K - I like the way you've thought through the possibilities and potential limitations of LLLT. I tend to agree that, once a hair cell is dead, it probably stays that way. Nevertheless, I remain cautiously hopeful that the LLLT does something that can help at least with acute cochlear stress, and maybe even with longer term damage.

I've not done HBOT, but have mostly read comments on this forum suggesting that it works best for acute damage. Others will have a more informed view than I do. I don't think you can go wrong with NAC, Vitamin D, and, if you can afford them, LLLT and stem cells.

I'll be curious to read any updates you post about the more experimental side of your decision-making spectrum.

 

HBOT has been shown to help regenerate nerves, myelin, and even reverse some cellular aging. Human myelin usually can be regenerated, even within our ears (if what I read is indeed correct), apparently, with a certain type of stem cells, but unfortunately somehow that ability slowly decreases as we age. Myelin is very important for the cochlea, so the ability to preserve/improve the regeneration of that is important to look into. Both LLLT and Vitamin D have been shown to be helpful for myelin. I think making sure that the body has the best Vitamin D level could enable good natural myelin repair, and theoretically enhance the potential of LLLT.

Whatever the case, protecting our body's ability to regenerate and protect itself should be important, even outside of using stem cell injections, so I think that LLLT does have its uses. I still have my old LLLT device, so I've been reusing it.

Hidden Hearing Loss is possibly associated with myelin loss, and I grew up with low Vitamin D due to not being outside enough, so I think that it is possible that I might have increased the impact of noise induced damage in this way. Maintaining good myelin health will be important for if/when a treatment for synaptic ribbon damage goes into the market.

 

Hi All,

Just wanted to post a brief update that I'm doing a short course of LLLT before a trip this weekend. All my symptoms seem to have settled to consistent baselines - sometimes they feel manageable, sometimes they feel way more annoying than I want to deal with.

The treatment routine I've settled into is alternating nights of 22 minutes with the 660 nm headset, and 11 minutes with the 808 nm headset. To clarify, I use one headset one night, the other the next, and so on.

I can't really report much positive or negative with my current treatment. I'll take a break over the weekend, and then do another few nights with the 660/808 nm pattern.

That's all for now. Hope those who tune in to this thread are healing and dealing

 

You know it. Healing and dealing, very nice way to put it. Might try this LLLT and HBOT shortly. I love this activity and effort you put into this thread. I feel @Brian Newman might be interested if these techniques increase myelination of nerves in the cochlea.

@Brian Newman, see this below, I don't know if myelination would convert Type II's to Type I's, or at least help the pain. But your OHCs can't be damaged too much since your audiogram is perfect. I have to look into these p2y receptors (I don't really know anything about them) and how to reduce them firing pain signals to the ear. I think I have noxacusis to just a slight extent since I get dull pain at times and my middle ear swells up randomly (like when the grass is being mowed by our maintenance team at my place).

 

I have started using emLas-520 with 660 nm and 808 nm lasers. My plan is to alternate between them (1 session per day) for 10 days. I decided to start with low dozes because I'm afraid about possible worsenings. Here's my sessions so far:

Day 1: 10 minutes with 660 nm
Day 2: 6 minutes with 808 nm
Day 3: 11 minutes with 660 nm

My tinnitus got worse due to noise exposure 2.5 months ago. (My tinnitus originally started without a clear cause and hadn't changed at all until now.) The sound exposure that made my tinnitus worse was too loud but not anything super crazy like a concert or rave. The regular hearing test didn't detect hearing loss. I have sound distortions and high pitched tinnitus sounds. My distortions started only after a few weeks after the incident which is weird. Also, the distortions have kept changing after that.

I'm worried about the lasers potentially making my situation worse. I also wonder if my dozes make sense. My tinnitus worsening is still "acute" if it means within the first 3 months. Does that affect the recommended doze? My tinnitus also spiked 1 month ago after a night out with friends (board game cafe + McDonald's), and I have been isolating since. It might have also made my distortions worse. They have been changing at least.

I'm not sure what kind of answer I'm expecting. I'm just at the same time worried about making things worse and not having big enough dozes for a possible positive effect. I might suddenly chicken out and stop my treatments, I'm not sure. How realistic are the fears of permanent worsenings due to LLLT? Is my tinnitus even the kind that can be treated with LLLT I wonder. As long as it doesn't make things worse...

 

The science of LLLT being beneficial is logical. It stimulates the cells to be more efficient, and stimulates the mitochondria. It has shown to be effective on muscle, skin, and even nerve damage. Unfortunately, whether or not it treats chronic tinnitus and nerves, is not really known. People report mixed things.

I think 30 minutes per session, a max of twice a day, is all most providers would suggest. Don't quote me on that though. The one that sold mine to me didn't have a problem with my exposure times. I think people will recommend different things.

You might consider looking at the threads about HBOT.

 

I'm already familiar with HBOT but decided against it because of the costs and people here recommending against it (for my case). Even if HBOT would give me some benefits, my understanding is that it would take multiple sessions which would be prohibitively expensive. And there are some risks as well?

Actually, I tried HBOT 10 years ago when my tinnitus originally began and it didn't do anything. I did 3 sessions, I think. It was less expensive then too. Some time ago I was really panicking about trying all the things I could before it's too late for my worsened tinnitus.

Should I have looked more into HBOT after all? I'm not in a good place with my tinnitus right now. I want to do the right things.

 

It might still be helpful. I haven't tried it yet myself. If it's possible to get a soft-type HBOT for home use, I might. Unfortunately, it's not possible to get a regular one for home use.

 

Hi @Artemis2K -- I bought an mHBOT (mild HBOT) chamber that came with a 30-day money back guarantee on it. I thought if I didn't want to keep it, the $120 I had to pay to ship it back would be worth it. I ended up keeping it, because I felt so much better doing 3-4 sessions a week.

It ended up getting burned up in one of the Oregon urban fires, and so I no longer have it. But I really enjoyed while I did have it, and hope to get one again once we get settled into a new house. HBOT has so many benefits that go well beyond what it might do for a person's tinnitus. For me, it was the increased resiliency I felt in my brain and neurological system that was most beneficial. Which in turn helped me stay calm about my tinnitus.

 

Stupid question. Does excessive earwax on eardrums possibly weaken the effect of LLLT? (I don't necessarily believe to the effects of LLLT in the first place but I'm willing to try things that seem safe.)

 

Is anyone able to provide a summary takeaway from this thread?

- Is LLLT beneficial (I guess it's mixed results, since I read the few clinical studies on it)?
- Do we know which cases benefit and which don't?
- What are the LLLT devices available and which is the most recommended one?
- What seems to be the % of worsening vs. no change vs. improvement?
- Other key things?

 

Hi All, I'm back with a little update.

It's been a while since I've done an LLLT post. That's due in part to the fact that I've traveled these past couple weeks, and partly due to the fact that my symptoms - while very much better than they were when I first experienced my acoustic trauma - seem to be locked in.

I'm on day 6 or 7 of my 3rd or 4th round of LLLT. The pattern I've developed has been to alternate nights between the 660 nm and 808 nm headsets (to respond to your question, @Dizzyhead888 - I use an emLas-520 BCB from Konftec). I do 22-25 minutes with the 660 nm headset, and 11-15 minutes with the 808 nm headset. After a week or 10 days at most, I take a break.

When I was first using my LLLT device, I was noticing more variation in my tinnitus volume, and a reduction in my sound sensitivity. There were some other symptoms that seemed to emerge, such as a "swish" overtone when listening to people pronounce the letter s, but that subsided with time, and hasn't reemerged in either of the most recent rounds of treatment.

My tinnitus has seemed to spike with each treatment, though it always recedes to a lower volume baseline after a few days off.

The really good news is that I am minimally limited at this point by my sound sensitivity (I described it as hyperacusis in the first months after my trauma, as simple things like washing my hands were acoustically unbearable, but I have settled on sound sensitivity as a more accurate current description). I try to avoid a lot of noise, plug my ears when I can't, and get by just fine.

The less good news is that I've reached a new phase (of grief? of acceptance?) in which I'm kind of expecting my tinnitus to be here until I die. This is not something I could open to until recently - my focus was squarely on trying to figure out how to cure my tinnitus. I'm now thinking that it's not too likely that'll happen, so I'm beginning to ask myself - from more of a reality-based perspective - how I'm going to live with it. And the truth is that I am living with it. We all are.

I'm approaching the 6-month mark of my trauma, and recognize that I'm still really new to this. I know that things can and will shift, and am hopeful that I habituate to whatever my reality becomes. What I think this may mean for how I approach treatment as I move forward is that my frame for assessing whether something (a supplement, an alternative treatment, etc) is worth trying may shift from "will it cure me?" to "will it increase my ability to live with what is?"

Thanks for reading - I hope that you're all finding peace and (relative) quiet.

 

Hi All,

A tiny update as I am treating myself with my 660 nm headset. I realized this week that my 90-day money back window to return my LLLT device closes in a couple days. I'm mulling whether or not to return my device.

This is part of a larger question I've been wrestling with about the degree to which I'm ready to accept - or resign myself to - tinnitus. I've been going from one treatment to another to another for six months. Maybe it's time to just be with what is.

Anyway, I know nobody but me has the answer, and I just wanted to share my thoughts.

Thanks for reading.

 

Hello, 10Kcd. I'm sorry that the laser isn't working for you as expected. The laser does not cure tinnitus, but it does help to improve it (I speak from my own experience). It’s all about experimenting without fear of the spikes intimidating us. They are not permanent, anyway, but they are part of the improvement process. When spikes happen, you have to stop temporarily, perhaps modify your routine if you want, but don’t give up. The process is long and you have to be patient.

I don't think you should return your Konftec INFRARED headset, just return the 660 mm as it is of little use for tinnitus. Return the RED for a refund, but keep the INFRARED, it will surely help you as it has helped me. Of course, It's only my opinion on what you should do, if you'll allow me to give advice.

Make up your mind and good luck in whatever you decide.

I send you my warmest regards and wish you well.