Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Long-Lasting Everyday Home-Practiced Experiences

Discussion in 'Alternative Treatments and Research' started by Jan64, Nov 22, 2017.

    1. Cal18
      Nerdy

      Cal18 Member Benefactor Advocate

      Location:
      San Diego
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      2010 / 2016 Both SSRI Withdrawal and Mild Hearing Loss
      Probably that it's good. Someone posted (somewhere in this thread) that he said spikes and new tones are common.
       
      • Informative Informative x 1
    2. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Cal18, I’m sorry for not replying before, I’ve gone through some rough days that kept me away from the forum.

      I wish I only could have an answer for my own bad reaction to laser light, anyhow, I hope this helps you: I don’t know if Dr. Wilden has any credibility so far, but, long ago, in one of the many conversations I had with him, he stated that, while on the therapy, fleeting tones, the more the best, is always good news. According to him, these new tones mean that the healing process is taking place in the cochlea. He also said that, when a new tone shows up for longer than usual, as they only normally last for seconds or minutes, it's generally less aggressive than the pre existing tinnitus, whish will be slowly pushed to the back ground and replaced by this new more bearable tone. This will happen again and again till the tinnitus is not bothersome anymore, or goes away definitely. I don’t know if this is your case though, but, in my opinion, this is like religion, it’s a matter of faith when proofs are lacking. I never got any better in the past and I’m just about to give up now due to my actual bad reaction to laser and the horrible spikes I get every time I’m lasering my ears. If there were scientific answer and not just speculations, my question should be: Why the bad reaction now and not before??? Who knows, is the only and most plausible one at the moment, I guess. So sad I have to stop this therapy. When science fails il.lutions might help sometimes. So sad.
      Good luck, Cal!
       
      • Informative Informative x 1
    3. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Codaz, if he hadn't changed his mind, his opinion is in my answer to Cal18.
      Regards.
       
    4. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Cal, according to Wilden again, reasonable spikes are quite common during the therapy, and it’s a good sighn if they happen, from time to time, along the lasering. My spikes though are not reasonable at all, they are agonic ones and make me want to die. In our body's language, I assume that this means STOP!! , and this is what I have done at the moment.
       
    5. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      An update.



      I had to stop lasering on Friday due to short spikes and constant changing, for worst, of my tinnitus perception along the day. Friday, Saturday and Sunday were quite rough. The nights were not too bad, though (?). Yesterday (Monday) I awaked up with a soft hum but my hearing had diminished, which was worrisome. All this made me feel that something nasty was going to happen. It remained soft till lunch time. After lunch, my tinnitus got even softer and almost went away for about an hour. Afterwards, it started spiking with ups and downs in loudness all along the afternoon. The multiple tones that I usually have changed to a new ones that filled my head and ears badly and, suddenly, started screaming horribly loud. I was in agony and helpless for hours. My hearing was very bad and all sounded metallic to me. Suddenly, the spike started to subside and my tinnitus finally got really low again, like it was at lunch time. Unfortunately, it was laud again for the time I went to bed, but didn’t disturb me during the night once I was asleep, not more than usual I mean. This morning, I got up with a really low hiss which has increased a long the morning, now, at 12.00 pm, a sort of fridge engine loud noise is in my head and new tones come and go. I’m a bit scared to say the less, so no lasering for a while.

      Obviously, the experience is not being a good one for me, but I won’t give up yet. In a week or so, I’ll start again with only 10 minutes daily, 5 times a week, plus two days off. If it’s still too much, I’ll lower it to 5 minutes, as my last and definitely try. Meanwhile, my friends, I hope to read good things from you and the laser light in despite of my bad experience up to this moment.

      Regards
       
      Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
      • Like Like x 1
    6. Cal18
      Nerdy

      Cal18 Member Benefactor Advocate

      Location:
      San Diego
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      2010 / 2016 Both SSRI Withdrawal and Mild Hearing Loss
      @Anima Thanks for sharing, sorry you had some rough days. Several months ago I felt I had received improvement in my hyperacusis with short sessions of about 5 min per day. I can't say for sure it was from the laser, but after I stopped it gradually got a bit worse but not to my initial level. My T fluctuates tremendously on its own with or without the laser. What you describe sounds similar to what this guy is saying: http://www.progressrec.com/curing-tinnitus.html but your experience sounds more intense. I think you're doing the right thing by backing off a little and trying much shorter sessions. When I first got the laser and tried 30 min sessions, it caused very bad ear pain.
       
    7. Codaz

      Codaz Member

      This worries me that the laser does all kinds of weird things.
       
    8. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Cal, thanks for caring. Thanks for the link, I knew Hansi Virtually. We emailed each other when he started the therapy. He was very close to Wilden and I was not, so we didn't go long way with our correspondence. I was sorry to know he passed away, poor man.
      About your ear pain, Dr Wilden (again him) told me that a little pain after the lasering was a good sign. Pain occurs when the ear is inflamed and laser heals it, but your pain was severe, so I don't think it was related to any inflammation. Did it last for a long time after you stopped the laser?
      After lunch, another spike showed up, not as bad as yesterday's though, but still very tormenting. No doubt, I'll be cautious with the sessions next time, just like you did. You know, Cal, my tinnitus also fluctuates a lot without the laser. It's horrible, you never know what's the ringing going to be the next minute, so I know how you feel and sympathize with you. We all need strength of spirit to cope with this condition if we want to stay sane, but it’s really a hard task.
       
      Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
    9. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Yes, Codaz, it does, but, fortunately, they are temporary and don't occur to every body. Don't worry because they don't last for long if you happen to get any. Just be cautious with sessions and go slowly, normally it should be fine.
       
    10. Cal18
      Nerdy

      Cal18 Member Benefactor Advocate

      Location:
      San Diego
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      2010 / 2016 Both SSRI Withdrawal and Mild Hearing Loss
      Just to reiterate, the ear pain was just short spurts of pain probably lasting around 5-10 seconds and maybe happened 3-4 times in one day. It felt exactly the same as the pain I got when my condition first came on (sharp). I believe I was getting the pains only for one day on the 4th day or so after daily 30 min sessions. Very small chance they were unrelated to the laser. It's really had to pinpoint or come to any solid conclusion about anything when you're dealing with T, as we all know.
       
    11. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Cal, you can swear they were laser related, because I’ve got the same as you several times, but long after the session though, not during it, and it was just a few seconds lasting exactly like you well explain. I didn’t link it to laser then, now I do. Dr. Wilden never said anything about the intermittent extremely short lasting pain like ours, but about a mild ear pain right after the laser sessions, which I never experienced in Germany. After I’ve read your post, I reached the conclusion about laser being the cause of the occasional and short lasting “puncture like” pain in my ears. I’ve had a sort of clogged feeling in my ears after the sessions too, which might be linked to inflammation. It makes sense now, I’m glad that you mentioned it. Thank you.
       
    12. Bobby B
      Fine

      Bobby B Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Large caliber rifles&machine guns, +30 years of loud clubs
      i have had the short pain inside the ears and of course the spike in T pretty much each time i did a good LT session

      these are normal in my opinion

      I would be more worried if hearing quality takes a hit and H goes up - both improved for me but yes T will be going up and down but eventually settle to its regular level or slightly less if you are lucky
       
    13. Vincent R
      Caffeine

      Vincent R Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Sweden
      Tinnitus Since:
      09/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic trauma
      I start to get the impression that according to Wilden, everything is always expected and a good sign.

      To the best of my understanding, and I'm not very knowledgeable, laser boosts cell activity. So if you have a hearing loss becase of T, beaming your ear with laser appears to be a good idea. And if you get spikes ... well, what else when everything inside the ear gets hyped up and try to adjust to a new energy level (or something). In short, I'm not a detractor of LLLT.

      But Wilden may be the kind of doctor who assure you things are fine no matter what. T gets worse? Don't worry. It sounds like an orchestra is moving into our ear? Happens all the time. You hear aliens communicating in their extraterrestrial language? A sure sign of you getting better.

      I'd consider to listen to what my body tries to tell me. One option might be to make the treatment more gentle, regardless of recommendations, and hope it will be effective over a longer period of time. Then again, I'm no expert or so.
       
      • Funny Funny x 1
    14. AZeurotuner

      AZeurotuner Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Tucson, AZ
      Tinnitus Since:
      2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
      Let's hope he's not a bullshiter... I have high hopes for lllt, not as a cure of course but as a means to lessen H related spikes and possibly a little bit of a reduction on my T. I can live with the ringing, it's the H that really gets me though.
       
    15. Vincent R
      Caffeine

      Vincent R Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Sweden
      Tinnitus Since:
      09/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic trauma
      Dr. Wilden might be a bit of a bullshitter withouth that making LLLT bullshit in itself. But people who interact with him must judge that for themselves.
       
    16. Bobby B
      Fine

      Bobby B Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Large caliber rifles&machine guns, +30 years of loud clubs
      You guys need to read all these LT threads where posters who actually went to these clinics - not just Wilden, there were a few others places too - explained their experiences

      Now with the availability of high power LED at low prices I don't think it makes sense anymore but these experiences are valuable when it comes to doing it t home
       
    17. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Those who have read all my posts about Lllt know that I’m not quite a fan of Dr. Wilden. I spent nearly 20.000 € during the 3 years I travelled to his place in Bad Füssing,Germany. His fees were high and so was transport and accommodation. Why did I go on if the very first 10 days treatment failed? That is easy to answer: I needed hope desperately and Wilden offers that to anyone who can afford his price. I was absolutely suicidal and I had to chose between faith and reason, like many millions of people do everyday when it comes to religion, for example. I’m very critic with Dr. Wilden, I openly say I don’t like him neither his methods, but I have to admit he saved my life. I needed hope and he had a lot of it for sale. Should I be grateful to him instead, in despite of all his unfulfilled intentions? Yes, I admit I AM , but one thing doesn’t take away the other. Fortunately for me, money was not an issue and I was able to afford Wilden’s chimera during three endless years. When habituation arrived, and I was able to take my life back (or whatever remained of it), I gave up Wilden and all his empty words for ever. So, when I often say “according to Wilden”, I just echo what he has said to me in the past, no matter the credibility or reliability that I grant to him. So, please, don’t misunderstand me. Finally, if you asked me why I’m still in the laser merry-go-round, I should reply with another question: Why do I find myself praying when I’m very afflicted if I’m agnostic by own conviction?
       
      Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
    18. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Yes, Bobby, and after reading them you conclude that no one, or almost no one, got cured or permanently improved. I agree with you, it doesn't make sense anymore, but hopelessness blinds reason and we just can't blame people if they don't lesten no matter if our own experience was a fraude. So sad.
      Thanks for your words.
       
    19. Coleoptere
      Alone

      Coleoptere Member

      Location:
      The Hague
      Tinnitus Since:
      2002
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Bell's Palsy, hearing loss
      And if no one is cured it is of course a shame to spend thousands of Euro's on these clinics and their devices while the components for these devices or alternative LED devices can be bought for less than hundred Euro's. But if you are desperate what will you do? At the end it is a gamble if it will help at all but trying nothing is no alternative. The treatment and the hope that comes with it will keep you alive until your misery stabilizes somewhat out or you have improvement. I'm glad I started with a DIY LED device and never went to Wilden though I contacted him. I can hear better than a year ago whether that is because the LED's have effect or that my mental state has improved I am not sure of.
       
    20. Bobby B
      Fine

      Bobby B Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Large caliber rifles&machine guns, +30 years of loud clubs
      The double blind studies we have on laser therapy show a clear improvement in hair cells restoration but only in the acute phase.

      The latest 2016 Japanese study is another good one.

      So it's a bit like steroids - they work but only in the beginning.

      Laser therapy is still worth trying but if the damage happened a long time ago, then the chances are low. Some people may get lucky, who knows - leds are super cheap and there isn't any side effects.
       
      • Agree Agree x 1
    21. Coleoptere
      Alone

      Coleoptere Member

      Location:
      The Hague
      Tinnitus Since:
      2002
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Bell's Palsy, hearing loss
      There is also a protective effect. So it will help to avoid further decline. So that is a valid reason to continue with LLLT treatment awaiting the drugs from Frequentie, Audion etc.

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4963219/#ref-4

      In this study we see that rats were treated with an 165mW 808 laser for half an hour a day. Obviously the laser had the power to reach the contralateral ear. Not sure if that can be done in humans :)
       
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    22. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Hi, Coleoptere: I'm glad that your DIY LED is improving your condition. Where can I buy one like yours?
      Thank you.
       
    23. Coleoptere
      Alone

      Coleoptere Member

      Location:
      The Hague
      Tinnitus Since:
      2002
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Bell's Palsy, hearing loss
      • Informative Informative x 1
    24. Bobby B
      Fine

      Bobby B Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Large caliber rifles&machine guns, +30 years of loud clubs
      Guys - here is the latest study on LT and noise induced cochlear damage..pretty interesting stuff ! This study goes beyond the previous ones in terms of explaining some of the healing mechanisms

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27342816
       
      • Informative Informative x 3
    25. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Coleopter, thank you.I am sceptic too, but, well, time will tell. Regards.
       
    26. Anima

      Anima Member

      Location:
      Mallorca (Illes Balears) EU
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb/2004(Serious aggravation)April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Antibiotics. Anaesthetic.
      Bobby, it is very interesting, thank you very much for posting it. Regards.
       
    27. AZeurotuner

      AZeurotuner Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Tucson, AZ
      Tinnitus Since:
      2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
    28. Bobby B
      Fine

      Bobby B Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Large caliber rifles&machine guns, +30 years of loud clubs
      I do it once or twice a week and seem to be still getting some improvements especially H and sound quality but very slowly

      I think that someone doing it 3 months only isn't going to notice much at this rate - It is a 3 to 4 years project

      It's only 10 minutes each time no cost no side effects so yeah why not

      My ent was convinced that - based on their medical data - you cannot get improvements past the 3 months mark after acoustic trauma

      This shows how much is unknown in terms of ears and healing potential
       
      • Agree Agree x 1
    29. AZeurotuner

      AZeurotuner Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Tucson, AZ
      Tinnitus Since:
      2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
      Thanks for the update Bobby... Do you feel like you're experiencing better results lasering twice a week rather than daily?
       
    30. Bobby B
      Fine

      Bobby B Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Large caliber rifles&machine guns, +30 years of loud clubs
      I think that daily is fine in the acute phase but beyond that twice a week is fine it's going to take time anyways and I don't use lasers btw
       
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