Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

hey dan, how can i buy konftek products from you ?

 

i sold mine already.

 

Hi rainman,

Just a quick one here. I've been reading all the posts on LLLT and willing to give it a go. What model do you recommend?

MLS
Luci
Konftec

Thanks,
-Steve

 

Hi rainman,

Just a quick one here. I've been reading all the posts on LLLT and willing to give it a go. What model do you recommend?

MLS
Luci
Konftec

Thanks,
-Steve

 

Sorry - that 2nd reply should have read @Owch

 

I have just been speaking on the phone with Dr Wilden. His clinic has relocated to Ibiza and it's possible to be treated there as he used to do in Germany, but rather than going to the clinic, he says the best approach is to buy a laser machine from him, which would be 2,660 euros. My audiologist had told me my audiogram showed normal hearing, but having now got a copy of my audiogram from her, it shows a definitive dip at 6000hz of 20 decibels, so it may be within the normal range, but at that frequency I have clearly lost hearing, albeit mild, and that is where my tinnitus frequency was measured to be.
Am really torn as to whether to try this. I know it hasn't worked for lots of people, having read through this thread, but there's always that feeling that if you don't try, you won't know but it would be an expensive 'experiment'.
If ATEOS happens to read this I was just wondering how your continued use of laser at home was going and whether you have experienced any improvement in the tinnitus?
(ps am still waiting for my medical friend to give a view, but he is travelling at the moment)

 

Not sure how to alert people on the forum but am trying this! @attheedgeofscience , @SteveToHeal

I have just been speaking on the phone with Dr Wilden. His clinic has relocated to Ibiza and it's possible to be treated there as he used to do in Germany, but rather than going to the clinic, he says the best approach is to buy a laser machine from him, which would be 2,660 euros. My audiologist had told me my audiogram showed normal hearing, but having now got a copy of my audiogram from her, it shows a definitive dip at 6000hz of 20 decibels, so it may be within the normal range, but at that frequency I have clearly lost hearing, albeit mild, and that is where my tinnitus frequency was measured to be.
Am really torn as to whether to try this. I know it hasn't worked for lots of people, having read through this thread, but there's always that feeling that if you don't try, you won't know but it would be an expensive 'experiment'.
If ATEOS happens to read this I was just wondering how your continued use of laser at home was going and whether you have experienced any improvement in the tinnitus?
(ps am still waiting for my medical friend to give a view, but he is travelling at the moment)

 

It's best to tag me if you want to make sure that I read your posts (it's done like this @attheedgeofscience).

"Dips" on an audiogram are never good. But it would be slightly unusual to have a dip at 6 kHz. Ususally when one has a dip at that frequency, it is part of the so-called ski slope which would therefore show a continued worsening of the hearing curve at 8 kHz and so on. Dips when they occur are usually at 4 kHz (= noise induced hearing loss). But dips can - and do - occur anywhere.

I will be getting an audiogram done in roughly 2 weeks time. At that time, I will let you (and others know) if I have experienced any progress.

Here are two credible sources on LLLT (they are not specifically relevant to tinnitus or hearing loss, but describe in detail how and why LLLT works). The mitochrondia inside our cells are surprisingly responsive to even small amounts of the right LLLT therapy (= dosage, wavelength, and power [mW]).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2790317/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23709010

I will probably be contacting a professor at Harvard Medical School (I will not name him - at least not yet) in the near future. He specializes in LLLT and the applications it has on stroke, Bell's Palsy, and dermatology. I will be doing so - not because I need to - but because unlike most people on this board (including some of the doctors), I intend to back-up my knowledge with credible information instead just arguing with people who clearly don't understand the science or whom I suspect have a biased agenda behind their arguments. My only agenda on this board is the truth. No more, no less.

The above paragraph is not intended at you, @LondonGirl.

 

Okay, correct - and you posted that as I was writing my response. Sorry about that.

 

Many thanks @attheedgeofscience , I just worked out the @ thing as you were replying
Interesting about the audiogram patterns. I wonder if I showed a dip at 6000khz because my tinnitus at that frequency was preventing me from hearing the quieter sounds.
Like you, I have no agenda, just want to get better ...

 

Steve, one piece of advice if you do decide to go for it: get an audiogram done prior to commencing the therapy and get audiograms done thereafter at two weeks intervals. The audiograms serve two purposes: as a reference point in terms of the physiological effect of the therapy and as a "psychological aid" in keeping up the therapy. By psychological aid, I mean the following: When you get involved in regenerative medicine, you will have to keep at it for quite some time. Undoubtedly, there will probably come a period where you say to yourself - why am I not experiencing any effect from the many hours of therapy? In these situations it is good to have the audiograms handy - because they will almost certainly show progress (even if your tinnitus volume and pitch may not - to begin with, at least). I managed to do 7 audiograms during the two month period that I did LLLT for. And these remain my probably most "treasured assets".

EDIT:

The audiograms should be at least up to 12,5 kHz. 16 kHz is best, but 8 kHz will not do.

 

I have written a short "guide" on how to approach a hearing test here:

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/am-101-tactt1-results-released.1994/page-20#post-38164

If you suspect that your tinnitus interferes with your ability to hear a certain frequency, you can ask to have the hearing test done with a pulsating frequency.

 

I am not really here as an LLLT advocate (at least not when it comes to tinnius - I am an LLLT advocate for other areas of medicine, definitely yes). But, I will say the following: I met Dr. Wilden four times last summer. I was at his clinic 11 times in total. During the four consultations I had with Dr. Wilden I learnt some insights about the success rate and the types of patients he treats. One of Dr. Wilden's "complaints" about some of his patients was that they walk into his clinic expecting him to cure them in two-three weeks after years and years of having abused their own ears with noise. He would compare it to the work of a dentist: if you haven't brushed your teeth for your whole life - and with the consequences that follow from that - then don't expect your dentist to be able to turn the situation around in "no-time". I agree with him. And that's probably one reason why there are a number of bad reviews of LLLT: because people have unrealistic expectations! And because they quit too soon (myself included in this statistic). If people want to try regenerative medicine, they have to be willing to try it and stay the course (= finish the job). The good thing about nerve healing is that - unlike teeth - you can actually repair nerves and bring them back to almost the same state they were originally in.

 

Hi ATEOS,

Thanks so much for your response. I really appreciate that.

Thanks also for the great tips on audiograms and the benefits both physiologically and psychologically, whilst doing LLLT. That is great advice and after reading your previous threads, I was going to do the audiograms (before and after) at regular intervals anyway.

Thanks also for the great advice on 12.5 to 16kHz.

I also hear you about staying the course with LLLT. If I read Hansi Cross journey, he took 3 years. But he stayed the course and got results.

My next step is to buy the Luci from Lumomed. Seemingly it is the model that came after the MLS, with the kinks ironed out. This is the response from lumomed on the product:

The Luci Basic has a wavelength of 660 nm which is the one that works best in our experience. There is no evidence that different wavelengths are needed for different areas of the cochlea. Every ear diode works with 40 mW which means that you have 80 mW, and the Luci only uses red light. This works just fine for all frequencies as well as symptoms like dizziness (lots of Morbus Menière patients have profited from LLLT).

I think everyone on the forum agrees it is very pricey. And at the end of the day, it will be my decision if I go for it or not.

Again, thanks for your input.

-Steve

 

Well at least you have started with LLLT again! I saw in your last posts that you had upped the mw rating and length of time exposure. I hope you see results and that your T comes down or better still disappears completely.

 

Hi ATEOS,

I know you have had disputes with some members on here-- but speaking for myself, and I suspect a majority of other routine posters--- I really hope that you keep posting to this board a normal basis. A lot of us don't have the monetary means or time to do what you are doing-- and I really am grateful that you are sharing your experiences with us. Thank you.

-Matt

 

Ditto. No agenda. Just want to get better like the both of you.

 

Hey LondonGirl,

Thanks for the tag. Yes. It sounds like you are in the same place as me. Should I, shouldn't I? An expensive experiment for sure. I got some good advice from people here on the forums, who give first hand experience as tinnitus sufferers, with or without using LLLT. Varied opinions. Some say placebo, others say LLLT works. I think the best advice was "Will you regret not trying it?" Even if it is placebo and you get well, do you really care what got you well?

So that's where I am at right now.

All the best with your recovery and thanks for the response.

-Steve

 

Thanks Steve, if you do go ahead, maybe you could give it 3 months and if it's not showing any improvement for you, then I'll buy it from you! Then at least we will have a research study of 2! In the meantime I could shine a torch in my ears for 3 months and then I can claim to be the control group Best of luck whatever you decide.

 

@LondonGirl

That's funny. Maybe your torch will work better than anything as part of the control group!! If it is not better in 3 months, I plan to stay the course. Up to 3 years !!! So maybe don't wait so long to decide. Thanks for the offer though. That would seriously reduce costs. Maybe that's an idea for the new T site going up. "Apply here to be part of the LLLT share". Dotted around the world. At the end of the day, its the community that will help push a cure for T. I'm pretty convinced of it. ENT's are overpaid and ineffective with T.

-Steve

 

Good idea! A time share on LLLT laser. If anyone else is based in London and wants to give it a try, let me know, as seriously a joint purchase could work.

 

Sharing Economy is one of the biggest business trends at the moment. This is actually a brilliant idea for Tinnitus Network imho - buy and manage the rotation of devices that can help with T. It might not be trivial, but it can be done for sure.

 

Hi,

I recently bought a Konftec Laser with 3 wavelengthes.
660nm/50mW per side (red Light Laser)
780nm/90mW per side (infrared Laser)
808nm/90mW per side (infrared Laser)

90 days Money Return Guarantee (excl. shipping costs)
http://www.konftec.com/html/EN/MoneyBack.htm

There is also a comparisson chart:
http://www.konftec.com/html/EN/Auricular_Laser_Comparison.htm

They also write:





Normally, the laser therapy needs 3~6 months to see the effectiveness. But, the user can easily feel the improvement after 10 ~ 30 treatments.

If the laser therapy has no effectiveness for treating tinnitus or hearing loss in 3 months (90 days), it is the waste of user's time and effort to have more laser therapy.


I read many articles about LLLT and there no clinical trial which says it's effective for T or Hearing Loss or Hyperacusis.
But there are some trials which comes to better results as the control group and some with no effectivness.

I use this device for 4 days now...
After the first session, I had a horrible night with much more T-level and a new T in the very low frequencies.
After 2. session, T-level went down and it's lower until today.
NOW: I don't claim the Laser for that! It could be coincidence, because 1 day before I started with LLLT, I stoped taking benzos and sleeping pills. Maybe this pills made also some noises or irritations.

I will see the following weeks, if there is an improvement, which also could be analog to improvement of time.
But if there should be an enhancement in the audiogram, so I would rate this for the LLLT.

I will update und progress.


Greets Tom

 

Thanks Tom, please do keep us updated. It is invaluable to hear about real experience, rather than conjecture.

 

ScientificWorldJournal. 2013 Oct 28;2013:596076. doi: 10.1155/2013/596076. eCollection 2013.
Efficacy of low-level laser therapy in the management of tinnitus due to noise-induced hearing loss: a double-blind randomized clinical trial.
Mollasadeghi A1, Mirmohammadi SJ, Mehrparvar AH, Davari MH, Shokouh P, Mostaghaci M, Baradaranfar MH, Bahaloo M.
Author information
Abstract
Background. Several remedial modalities for the treatment of tinnitus have been proposed, but an effective standard treatment is still to be confirmed. In the present study, we aimed to evaluate the effect of low-level laser therapy on tinnitus accompanied by noise-induced hearing loss. Methods. This was a double-blind randomized clinical trial on subjects suffering from tinnitus accompanied by noise-induced hearing loss. The study intervention was 20 sessions of low-level laser therapy every other day, 20 minutes each session. Tinnitus was assessed by three methods (visual analog scale,tinnitus handicap inventory, and tinnitus loudness) at baseline, immediately and 3 months after the intervention. Results. All subjects were male workers with age range of 30-51 years. The mean tinnitus duration was 1.85 ± 0.78 years. All three measurement methods have shown improved values after laser therapy compared with the placebo both immediately and 3 months after treatment. Laser therapy revealed a U-shaped efficacy throughout the course of follow-up. Nonresponse rate of the intervention was 57% and 70% in the two assessment time points, respectively. Conclusion. This study found low-level laser therapy to be effective in alleviating tinnitus in patients with noise-induced hearing loss, although this effect has faded after 3 months of follow-up. This trial is registered with the Australian New Zealand clinical trials registry with identifier

 

I'm afraid I don't understand enough of the lingo to know what that means. I just don't want to waste my money but neither do I want to miss out on a potential solution.

 

Note taken.

The only reason I returned to this board was because of the off-label AM101 opportunity which (suddenly) presented itself. But - which didn't go through in the end. Following that, I went through a lot of red-tape to get the decision overturned. To no avail, however. My father who lives in Switzerland - the same country in which Auris Medical is based - had a conversation with the managing director there. He did mention a few supplements that one could try (one of them being Zinc). Of course the managing director did not say these were cures - but simply stated that there at least was some evidence of some of the supplements being helpful in some cases (meaning that one could "give it a try"; no more, no less). In my case, I will probably being opting for intramuscular vitamin B12 injections (alongside the LLLT). The professor of HIFU surgery has told me to exhaust all possiblities before seeing him. And so I will do that.

As for LLLT, I have my doubts as to whether it will work in my case, but since I already have a laser at home, I might as well opt for another round of therapy. Besides, I think the results (= audiograms) I have obtained (and posted here on this board) are actually quite interesting. So no harm in seeing where it might lead.

I don't know whether you are the same Matt I have been sending updates to outside of this forum since New Year, but if you are, then I will be sharing the invitation details I got from the professor of HIFU surgery with you guys in the near future; as for this board, I have only shared them with Markku. First, however, I need to get a second audiogram done (which I will post here).

Take care.

 

Hi,
yes the expensive home lasers for several 1000 Dollars are too expensive in my opinion.
This device has 4 parts. An electronic timer, some fibrers a Laserdiode and an Batterypack.
I really can't imagine what there should be 3000 to 4ooo USD just because of a high quality
"Laser Light"...
But maybe I am wrong.

 

I haven't seen the paper, only the abstract you posted. I've never heard of the journal.

When a researcher compares a placebo with a treatment, the way it is reported is by indicating how likely the observed results are if the treatment has no effect. It's a bit odd, but that's the way it's done, and there are reasons for it.

One might report that that the effect of the treatment was significant at the 0.01 level. That would mean that the result would occur by chance only in one of 100 experiments. It is very easy to run some small experiments and get one that shows a very nice effect. But the significance level would be something like 0.30, meaning that the observed result should occur in about 30% of experiments of that size purely by chance.