Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

Discussion in 'Alternative Treatments and Research' started by joe, Mar 22, 2012.

tinnitus forum
    1. joe

      joe Member

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      October 2011
      Anyone using this therapy, we would like you to share your experience with us.
       
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    2. felinefine
      No Mood

      felinefine Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      many years, but much worse after acoustic trauma in 2014
      I am starting a list of lasers here and will edit as time goes on.

      Maybe people can make suggestions/ comments below? (what to edit/change/add....or what I have said that is incorrect or not accurate) Thank you :)


      Things we should look for/consider when purchasing a laser
      LLLT run up to 500 mW
      Cheaper lasers have one wavelength, vs. two
      purchase from reputable seller (usually not from China-lucky laser is an exception)
      warranty-usually 2 years
      do all lasers have both infrared, and near infrared lights (not far infrared, right?)

      The class 3B lasers reach the ear more effectively than the class IV lasers. Class IV lasers are more powerful, but @attheedgeofscience explained in a video that due to our body percentage of water and other body processes (and other reasons I cannot articulate well), class 3B is usually more effective.

      Brands of soft lasers to consider
      MLS/Lux Spa Home Laser
      http://www.lux-spa-ibiza.com/index.php/en/inner-ear-laser/product/35-lux-spa-home-laser-by-dr-wilden
      2,500€ :(
      Max Output power: 30mW +/- 10% (but fits closer to the ear for more accuracy during each treatment)
      Wavelength: 658 +/- 15nm
      @Nick J. uses this one. His dad has also had success with this one after using it for (a few weeks/a month)? Nick will be moving to the Lucky-laser soon.

      Konftec (2 users have not seen effect with this brand)
      Anne says this laser, after 1 year, loses power.

      Lucky-laser
      1,500 USD
      "This laser has more power and two different wavelengths.
      650 nm /(up to) 120 Mw and
      808 nm/ (up to) 900 Mw.
      The use method is the same as Dr Wilden inside the ear."
      (I think @FERNANDO GIL you were saying this is the same method Anne uses not Dr. Wilden?)
      @FERNANDO GIL uses this one (used by Dr. Anne Harila)
      http://www.lucky-laser.com/productview.php?id=LK-COMBI

      Tinni Help (comments on this one?)
      http://tinnihelp-laser.com/technical-data.html

      Combilaser (comments on this one?)
      http://www.laserlight.biz/products_Compact_CombiLaser.html

      Irradia (comments on this one?)
      http://www.irradia.com/international/Base_Unit.htm
      the iraddia unit + 808 and 650 nm =about 7000 euros there is no a fixed price
      expensive again, darn!

      Luminex
      http://medicallasersystems.com/products.html

      thank you @attheedgeofscience

      Things to remember
      -Stop use if there are side effects like vertigo (though usually there are no side effects)
      -Get an audiogram before you start treatment, at least up to 12 Hz, better to do up to 16 Hz, do not do up to the standard 8Hz-->also do every couple of weeks after starting, and then maybe every several months?
      -must treat in long term to see results (plan on at least 1-3 years). It took Hansi (spelling?), who had sudden hearing loss (I'm not sure from what? was it loud exposure? Idopathic?) 3 years to get to about 85 percent. I believe his tinnitus is also gone at some points?
      -treat every 5 days, then take a 2 day break? Some people disagree with taking breaks.
      -wear earplugs during treatment, and possibly long after as well. Wear earplugs always during any loud noises anyway-sirens, theater? etc.
      (any advice on what earplugs to get? I believe someone recommended the blue ones here if you have small ear canas http://www.amazon.com/Etymotic-Rese...=UTF8&qid=1419791059&sr=1-3&keywords=earplugs and they grey ones on this same link, "standard fit," if your ears are a bit larger)
      -possibly take b12 while doing treatment. Some suggested doing the shots. Yes, these are great for some people! They were not for me however. I couldn't figure out, when I was doing b12 shots for many months, why they were not working for me. I finally met with a doctor who explained it to me. It is important to take the correct b12 for your body, hydroxocobolamine is more easily absorbed by the body and used as "ready energy" that does not require more metabolizing that methylcobolamine requires (this is what is available in the b12 shots). Therefore sublingual b12 that had hydroxocobalamine was better for me, and sometimes is better for others too. Genetics also play a part in what type of b12 a person needs, as there are several forms (these genes can be found in a 23andme test). If you don't want to do the 23andme test, you can just experiment with other b12 until your energy is better, then you will know which one is right for you.
      - ginko
      -coQ10 for cellular energy
      note*since supplements are not FDA regulated, make sure you get reputable brands, and supplements with the least amount of "fillers" including soy etc. (soy is especially bad for women)

      List of practitioners people from the site have seen:
      Dr. Wilden
      Dr. Anne

      More resources:
      Hansi's blog (the one who healed from LLLT after using for 3 years)
      http://www.progressrec.com/curing-tinnitus.html
      (there are also links to a few other resources at the bottom of this page)
      does anyone know how to get in contact with him? He is not on this forum anymore, correct?

      Anne's site
      http://www.laserklinikken.com/

      Dr. Wilden's site
      http://www.dr-wilden.de/en/
      Dr. Wilden's info. pdf page about tinnitus/hearing loss symptoms /how the ear works (in english, I was told the german one is better)
      http://www.dr-wilden.de/pdf/dgo_en.pdf

      p.s. I live in Baltimore. Message me/write a reply in this thread if you live in the Baltimore/Virginia/DC area, or are somewhat close-by and interested in going in on a laser with me. Thanks

      *Note: Some more info that a user requested to add (thank you!) to the laser thread. He said this was from aaron beck (I am summarizing). He suggested finding the mW and wavelength that works best, for finding someone to build a cheaper laser. He was looking into the irradiate or combilaser-a high dosage laser. (I believe there are two schools of thought with this if I understand correctly? Dr. Wilden believes there is one frequency that is best for healing the lower frequencies and then the higher frequencies, where Dr. Anne believes multiple should be used simultaneously to help specific ranges of hearing loss?) . I think this is a great idea. @Nick J. explained though, from talking to Anne, of the complications that come into actually building a laser. I also know that a lot of the cost comes from insurance on these devices. It turns out, I suppose, that it's not realistic for something that is needed now, but still a great thought.

      Thank you again!
       
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    3. Goodcheer

      Goodcheer Member

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      Jan 2012
      Hi
      I used low intensity laser therapy for a severe food and inhalant allergy for a period of about 4 years.

      It was extremely successful enabling an 85% recovery in weeks from a problem that had been intractable for 17 years- and as I say, I was well for 4 years. Eventually I became accommodated to it and it no longer worked for me - stemming from frequent use, accommodation is a problem to be aware of - possibly if I had been more alert I could have avoided it.

      As a result of information I got on this forum two weeks ago I have been experimenting with stimulating nerve endings leading to the vagus nerve with an acupuncture pen (electronic stimulation device with a pointed probe) - applied to the concha of the ears - 2 applications to each ear - 2 or 3 times a day for 90 seconds. Until the application of this device my tinnitus had been constant and unremitting - loud. If we called the original level 100% then I would estimate that it has been reduced to a constant 20-25% for most of the time. There are occasional reversions - but never to the original level.

      The psychological benefit has been enormous - knowing that you have some control is a profound relief - and currently, whilst I still have a distinctly audible tinnitus I don’t notice it too much. The cause of my tinnitus is unknown but does not stem from damage or exposure to loud noise.

      I suspect that low intensity laser therapy will work as well if not better. Unfortunately I am not able to trial it myself as I am accomodated to it and it no longer works for me. I am not sure whether there are safety issues using it around the head and obviously one would want to go into this carefully. Lasers are extremely dangerous to the eyes and must be used with eye protection and very great care.

      There seem to be dozens of inexpensive units around which I suspect are underpowered and may be of very limited value, I bought a professional physiotherapists setup at an eye watering price - but it was worth it for what it did for me.

      I can recommend both devices wholeheartedly. I have used them for a variety of problems on myself, family and friends with very good results.

      As with the laser - the very cheapest acupuncture pens are poor quality and not worth buying.

      Obviously It would be good if we could gather together a few more reports - I would be very interested to hear if anyone has got results similar to mine
       
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    4. Shelley

      Shelley Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      07/12
    5. calin
      Inspired

      calin Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      Oct 2011
      Please tell me the name of the device that you are using.

      Do you stick it in your ear, or outside of your ear?
       
    6. click
      Busy

      click Member Benefactor

      Location:
      West Cornwall, England, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/04/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Not sure
      Goodcheer - did the results last? ie. are you still at 20 to 25% of what it used to be? Having a bad day here and willing to consider anything!
       
    7. dan
      Chatty

      dan Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2011
      Well I got a pair of low power lasers, 660 and 808nm.
      After trying them for 30min each, I had a huge spike a few hours later that lasted till next morning.
      So its doing something alright, but not quite in the direction I wanted.
       
    8. Molan
      No Mood

      Molan Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2005
      Dan correct me if I'm wrong but dosen't Dr wilden of LLLT say that by doing this treatment someones Tinnitus gets worse before it gets better?

      Or am I confusing myself here?

      Kudos to you that you are trying this for yourself. I definetly believe being pro-active in one's treatment of their own Tinnitus is a positive thing. However is it safe enough though to do this treatment yourself without a qualified practitioner?
       
    9. dan
      Chatty

      dan Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2011
      I cannot give you an answer Molan.
      The spike could have been a random thing, but it scared the @#%% out of me.
       
    10. carlover
      English

      carlover Member Benefactor

      Location:
      London
      Tinnitus Since:
      1986
      I cant remeber the website ,blog or whatever but there was someones "story" and he persevered for 18 months or so ,a long process and he got results.

      Ive actually got a Terraquant machine (google if you will) but have never been consistent when it come s to long term T therapy.
       
    11. dan
      Chatty

      dan Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2011
      Hi carlover, can you be more specific about your self treatment protocol?
      What wavelength(s) and power in mW did you use?
      Did you notice any effect good/bad that you could attribute to the laser?
      How long have you had your T before you started and what was the cause of your T?

      Appreciate your input, thanks.

      Dan
       
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    12. carlover
      English

      carlover Member Benefactor

      Location:
      London
      Tinnitus Since:
      1986
      Hi Dan,as I said Buddy I have a machine that I have never really used for my Tinnitus. I use it for sports injuries.

      T started a week after breaking my nose badly, (needed an op) playing Professional Football I the UK.

      I was 31 had it 25 years ,have tried basically 90% of everything thats out there ,including this new Acoustic CR neuromidulation and nothing touches it.

      Wish you well mate,Pete
       
    13. Molan
      No Mood

      Molan Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2005
      Carl would you be interested at some point in the future posting what therapies you have tried for your Tinnitus? I was thinking of doing the same thing and organizing it in a specific thread.
       
    14. carlover
      English

      carlover Member Benefactor

      Location:
      London
      Tinnitus Since:
      1986
      Hello Molan (love your photo) so eucalyptus doesnt help then.;)
      Yep im up for that ,if theres enough space on the Forum!!!!!!
      Best,Pete
       
    15. oliver
      Stressed

      oliver Member

      Location:
      london
      Tinnitus Since:
      08/2011
      I know this is bait of an old thread now but I have been looking at this device:

      http://www.tinnitool.com/en/therapie_moeglichkeiten/index.php

      It sounds like a similar device. Does the company have any merits? Have there been any independent studies on low level laser therapy?

      I long to have a way off lowering the volume of T, even a momentary rest would be a godsend.
       
    16. Molan
      No Mood

      Molan Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2005
      lol if only Eucalyptus was the cure!! Maybe it's a preventative though if you are a Koala bear!

      Thanks for that Pete (Sorry for accidentally calling you Carl!) I will start a thread in the near future about all the things each of us have tried for our Tinnitus. I think I mentioned this before on this site but I got sidetracked. I'm thinking about how to structure it because there are things I have tried which although didn't help me might be effective for someone else.
       
    17. click
      Busy

      click Member Benefactor

      Location:
      West Cornwall, England, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/04/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Not sure
    18. Karen
      Talkative

      Karen Manager Staff Benefactor Hall of Fame Ambassador

      Location:
      U.S.
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      First time: Noise 2nd Time: Ototoxic drug
      Do I understand that the laser therapy may work for people with some hearing loss?
       
    19. dan
      Chatty

      dan Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2011
      Yes.
       
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    20. Lesky

      Lesky Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/1997
      I had a 8000$ laser at home for treatment, it did nothing for me at all. My brother also has tinnitus and did not work for him either. I borrowed it from another tinnitus sufferer who claimed to have been better by using it.
       
    21. hps

      hps Member

      Location:
      canada
      Tinnitus Since:
      14 oct 2012
      hi all members
      some of you are in europe.why did you not try Dr Wilden laser therapy in germany? Has any one tried?
       
    22. jes
      Familiar

      jes Member Benefactor

      Location:
      copenhagen denmark
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2012
      i have been to wilden he was wery kindly and expensive 200 euro for one hour he claims it starts a healing proces
      perhaps it can have a Little influence.he can talk for hours.perhaps it is best for noice t mine comes from noice and infection.
       
    23. Golly
      Bookworm

      Golly Member Benefactor Team Awareness Team Research

      Location:
      New York City
      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2011
    24. Owch

      Owch Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2013
      Hi, I've just come back from 10 days of laser treatment at Dr Wilden's clinic.

      Dr Wilden explained to me that the purpose of the treatment is to instigate a recovery process in the ears by delivering a dose of energy to the mitocondria that generate ATP, and that the generation of this additional ATP allows the ear to start repairing the damage that it has suffered. The recovery process is initiated by the laser and then continues after the treatment, so the important point is that it doesn't happen only when the ear is in contact with the laser but is rather an ongoing process. Dr Wilden is also very clear on the point of protecting ears from damaging noises after the treatment has finished in order to allow a better recovery.

      Before I went I had a long personal exchange with one of the internet bloggers who speaks about their experiences with LLLT. They shared their audiograms with me and I'm absolutely convinced that they are genuine and their hearing recovery is real. Their audiograms showed what was initially a 'noise damage' profile with dips in the higher frequencies, but then after a 12 month period of time showed 30db of hearing improvement in some areas of their hearing spectrum, and they went from having a -20db point at 2KHz in one ear to having it at 11KHz. During this time they went for a 10 day session at the Wilden clinic and had a year of treatment with a home laser. I found this very exciting as my audiograms similarly seem to show damage to my ears from noise and after discussing it with my GP (who was open about it maybe being able to help) I organised my own visit to the Wilden clinic.

      The treatment itself involved lying each side for 30 minutes while receiving two frequencies of relatively powerful laser radiation in and around the ear from a large laser device providing energy at two different frequencies. I could feel the warmth inside my ear while I was having the treatment so I'm pretty sure it is getting into the ear.

      I only finished the therapy last Friday so it is very early days to see what the effects on me will be. At the moment I can say subjectively that my sensations of pressure and fullness seem to be somewhat improved and the tinnitus itself seems to have changed slightly to having a less 'harsh' quality and think I'm hearing more high frequency components in it. I also notice that I'm listening to the TV at a lower volume and I think my hyperacausis might be a bit better - but I am deliberately avoiding annoying noises so it is difficult to say. Objectively my audiograms show a small improvment in the bone conductivity test but the air conductivity tests are inconclusive (slightly better but only within the 'margin for error'). I will have another audiogram test in a couple of weeks at a local hearing aid center, where I had an audiogram just before I went for the therapy and see if there is anything more concrete. At some point I will need to decide about whether I want to get a home laser for myself but Dr Wilden advises that the energy I have received in his clinic will be enough to initiate a recovery process and that I should wait until I personally feel it would be beneficial.

      I think to summarise I can say that there is a medical explanation for how LLLT can help with ear recovery, that the process is not 'immediate' but requires patience and that people have certainly been helped by it - as proven by audiograms.

      I will post more updates on my own progress when I feel there is something useful to say
       
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    25. Sherri786
      Dreaming

      Sherri786 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Canada
      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2013
      Hello Owch

      Any update on your progress ? Thank you.
       
    26. Owch

      Owch Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2013
      Hi Sherri

      Sorry for not reporting sooner!

      I took an audiogram 11 days ago, which was two weeks after I finished the treatment in Germany. I had an earlier audiogram, just before I started the treatment, in the same hearing aid centre with the same audiologist because I wanted to be able to compare 'before and after' measurements using an independent third party.

      LLLT is supposed to impact the lower hearing frequencies in the early stages of the treatment (higher frequencies supposedly come later) and the second audiogram showed a 5db improvement in three out of the five measured points in the left ear at 1KHz and below (other two points were the same value as on the earlier audiogram) and the plot for the audiogram in the right ear was identical to the earlier one up to and including 1KHz except for one point being 5db higher. Points above 1KHz in both ears were similar in both audiograms with a mix of higher and lower values than before but no clear pattern of improvement or degradation.

      5db is 'the margin of error' in an audiogram so there is no 'statistical' difference between the two 'before and after' charts, which is a bit disappointing, but I take comfort from the fact that (as with the measurements in Dr Wilden's clinic after the treatment) none of the 1KHz and below frequency measurements were lower than before, and many were 'slightly higher' so there may be a marginal improvement. I also noticed subjectively that it was easier to differentiate the test tones in during the audiogram the second time than it had been before I started the treatment and I think my tinnitus continues to become slightly softer and the hyperacusis and pressure problems less pronounced as time progresses.

      I feel positive about the treatment and have decided to buy an 'MLS' home laser from Dr Wilden which hopefully will arrive at the end of next week or early the week after. I will then be able to continue the treatment at home (I was waiting to confirm this transaction before I posted an update here). Strangely I have a feeling that my ears are 'missing' the warmth that they felt from the laser radiation during the treatment as it was quite a comfortable feeling, and I am looking forward to getting the home laser.

      I will wait until the laser arrives and then do a month or two of home treatment before I take my next audiogram.
       
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    27. Hopeful
      Wishful

      Hopeful Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      06/13
      @Owch. Yes, it's indeed within the margin of error. Especially since the hearing tests are normally done with 5dB-steps. There is also an effect of training. But as you say, there is a consistent overperformance, which is a good sign. And the subjective feeling you had during the audiograms also matter.
      How do your audiograms look? Do you have significant hearing loss?
       
    28. Owch

      Owch Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2013
      Both my ears show a very similar, noise damage profile with the hearing loss being between -20db and -15db up to around 1.5KHz and then droping to around -50db at 4KHz before rising again afterwards. The tinnitus sounds that I hear seem to correspond to the regions of greatest damage in my hearning. I suppose I should be grateful to the tinnitus for 'notifiying' me of my hearing damage so I could protect myself from further damage before it seriously impacted my ability to hear conversations - though it is rather difficult to feel that way! :(

      Training might indeed have had an effect. However there were 5 weeks in between the two audiograms and the other two audiograms I took in Dr Wilden's clinic during the treatment were different in format - a continuous rising tone as opposed to the discrete tones used in the hearing aid centre test - so I think the effect would be reasonably small.

      Before starting the treatment I had a discussion with another patient of Dr Wilden's and his audiograms went from a profile very similar to mine to a much 'flatter' profile of everything up to 11.5KHz being within -20db and that improvement took 12 months of treatment. He had the experience of the lower frequencies rolling-up first with the higher frequencies improving later, and he told me that there was a corresponding change in his tinnitus tone, which both diminished and rose in frequency as the treatment continued.

      Hi Sherri

      Thanks for your thoughts! I will be posting here again on an ongoing basis as my treatment continues, to let you know how it progresses.

      I think it will be a slow process however as I know it takes months for some people to respond.

      One thing I didn't mention is that Dr Wilden is keen on the use of ear-plugs in any form of noisy environment during the treatment (street, supermarket, car, public transport etc) although I know this is contrary to the advice of many ENTs. I got myself a pair of custom musician's headphones made in the hearing aid centre with interchangeable 15db and 25db filters and I use these a lot. I find these much less annoying than normal plugs as they are much more comfortable and I can still hear a bit of noise while wearing them, which masks the tinnitus somewhat. I'm noticing that since taking the treatment and using the ear plugs that I am listening to my television at a lower volume than before and I have the impression that I am hearing conversations a little better.
       
    29. Sherri786
      Dreaming

      Sherri786 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Canada
      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2013
      Welcome Owch.

      I totally agree about using ear plugs in noisy places , I regret not doing so in the early
      Days of my T, I was visiting a very noisy big city Montreal , the supermarkets, traffic , everything was just too noisy and I was just too ignorant at the time and ofcourse the doctors I saw were equally ignorant about T. I feel my T got much worse and I did further damage to my ears by not wearing ear plugs.

      Best wishes for the treatment and hope it works out for you eventually.

      Take care.
       
    30. stargazer

      stargazer Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Tampa, Fl
      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2013
      I have a set of musicians plugs too that I carry on my key chain. I was also ignorant and put myself in noise situations that made my T worse, sometimes temporarily, others permanently (wedding, parties, etc.). The worst was from chaperoning my son's class at the local amusement park. Just didn't even think about how loud it was going to be. I had been there many times over the years before T and not given it a second thought. When I got there with no plugs and realized how loud it was, I knew it was not going to be good (I thought it would be a spike for a few days, maybe a week) but it ended up being worse than that. The good news is that I am used to the new level for the most part ( 6 months later) but if I could go back and have plugs that evening...

      Sometimes I think back to how my T was when it first came on (mild in comparison to now) and it is funny how it bothered me so much more than my current levels do. :dunno:
       
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