My Introduction...

OK - no problem, I can "stick around" if necessary.

It's just that I don't think there will much happening in the near future in terms of making progress on the experimental medicine front. So the situation is what it is, at the moment. And so, I don't really see what value I can add to this forum? I try to answer a few questions every now and then, but essentially it is more or less the same deal with every new post on this forum: see an ENT as quickly as possible, get a diagnosis, discuss possible use steriods if relevant to the situation, and protect your ears. And that's really all that can be done, as I see it.

I did suggest to @Markku a while back that it might make sense to add a "banner" on the front page that says something like: "if you have suddenly developed tinnitus or if you believe you are suffering from acoustic trauma, then please see an ENT immdiately; do not delay - a course of steriods can potentially reduce the severity of tinnitus or prevent it from becoming permanent". The text should be signed off by a physician. This would be my advice. See a physician as soon as possible (within 24/48 hours after onset is critical). Far too many people decide to "wait it out" for a few days - and hence miss the "window of opportunity".

I will check in with this board once in a while. Promise.

 

You're right about all that. I think people are just fascinated by your posts, even if most/many of the more exotic treatment options you relate to the board and opine about are out of our reach, and all we're left with is ENTs and - get used to it. You're definitely appreciated. That's all.

 

Hi ATEOS,

I bought the "cheaper" Konftec stuff, it's the EM-LAS 520 with all frequencies.
So it's more power output as most other smaller home-lasers.

I will get it next week, so I will see if there is some improvement.
Dr. Wildens clinic seems to be closed.

Greets Tom

 

OK - good luck...!

I will report in with some news in about two weeks with my own treatment. Currently, I am doing 80 mW visible red light for 1 hour - left ear, 20 min. - right ear, per day. I will increase that somewhat over the next days. This is not the recommended dosage, however. Please also be mindful of the spread of the laser. Laser output can be focused into a beam, or over a wider circular area. The clinical difference of this is of course important to the therapy - and how much therapy is needed...

 

Hi,
may I ask you, what laser brand do you use?
Konftec delivery and service has been very good so far.
The Laser arrived now within a few days.
Today I started... I will give updates.

All the best
Tom

 

Novatech... (I believe there is photo of it somewhere in one of my posts on this thread).

All the best to you as well.

 

Hello,

I looked for Novatech but seem to get lots of nonsense results. Ould you please post a link to it?

Thank you

 

I bought my laser directly from Dr. Wilden. I therefore have no experience with the supplier. Their wesbite (www.novatechvilanova.es) appears to be inactive.

But there are other suppliers out there. Have a look around on the Internet or follow some of the other links I have posted in this thread, and I am sure you will find what you are looking for.

 

Thank you so much. Your posts are really helpful. I am very interested in the overall effect of your stem cell therapy. I really wish you full recovery for all the help you are providing via your posts. I have discovered TT yesterday and am fascinated by all information I can get here.

 

Hi
If you contact Novatech to buy the laser this is the mail you will get.

Dear Mr. Gil,
Thank you for your interes in our Laser.
We have a contract with Dr.Wilden. He is one of the best specialist for inner ear.He sell for us the new model which name is Lux Spa. It is a Laser with 2x 30mWof Optical Power and 655nm Waveleangth. The Price is 2.260,00€.+IVA.The delivery time is any days.But you can contact him, if you will buy this Laser or you have any questions more .His E-Mail isinfo@lasertherapieregensburg.dehis mobil number is 0034 605215906

 

@attheedgeofscience
Thank you for sharing all of your findings and experiences with us!

 

So this price tag was for 10 hours of therapy +a laser to bring home for good (buy)? Also, do you know anything about the time-frame in terms of when one experienced the trauma causing hearing loss and the effect that the treatment will have? Thanks!

Also, may I ask what are the characteristics of your T noise? Hissing, mid frequency tone, stable/un-stable/reactive, etc ..?

 

Correct. The laser was not leased; I bought it - it is mine (for good). And high quality lasers last "forever".

One clinic therapy session = EUR 200,-

Laser = EUR 1600,- (at that time at least).

As long as the majority of the hearing curve is within stage I hearing loss (= 30db), you will have a good response to the therapy (as in my case). Only if there is deafness at a certain frequency (= hearing loss > 100 db) will the person not improve his or her hearing at that frequency - but hearing loss at other frequencies can still be improved, however.

The high-end frequencies take longer to improve. Low frequencies (0 - 8 kHz) improve pretty much immediately. I had to adjust volume settings on many appliances over the first few weeks of commencing therapy at this time last year because my hearing improved and many sounds, which felt normal in terms of loudness beforehand, suddenly felt too loud (even though I had "normal hearing" to begin with...). 10-15 db hearing improvement does make a difference (remember the energy carried by a sound wave doubles for every 3 db...).

Ideally, human beings should aim to keep their hearing loss within 10db all the way up to 16 kHz for the majority of their lives. This may sound totally crazy and impossible to most people (and also to ENTs), but that is the view of Dr. Wilden. And it is a view that I share too (now). We - as a modern society - have come to accept some totally incorrect and stupid norms when it comes to loudness levels. And that's why so many people are ending up with problems of the inner ear such as hearing loss, tinnitus, vertigo, fullness in the ear, hyperacusis, and whatever else. Our inner ears were never meant for this kind of nonsense.

My tinnitus has gone through a loss of phases during the last year - probably because of all the "therapy" I have gone through.

Right now, I have pretty much a low non-intrusive "eeeeeeee" in my left ear ie. it is an "eeeeeeeeeee" and not an "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" anymore...! Easily masked by everday noises. I have no idea about the frequency (in kHz) of that sound. No clue.

Right ear is somewhat different. I have had tinnitus in that ear since childhood. It has two components: a morse code like sound (very soft and non-intrusive, and easily masked). I also have a static hissing noise in that ear - this noise is not that loud, really - but it can always be heard regardless of the noise environment I am in. It certainly feels like reactive tinnitus when I am driving a car or sitting next to a computer fan. Since my various therapies this particular static sound has begun to go away - meaning if I wake up in the morning without it, then it will stay away for the entire day. I seem to be having two good days, followed by a "bad" day, then two good days, and so on.

I believe my lifelong tinnitus (right ear) may have been caused by a car crash when I was 6 months old.


Lastly, I should add that even though my hearing improved quite a bit, the LLLT did little for my tinnitus. The only effect I experienced was that my sleep began to improve (but my tinnitus was still the same pretty much). I do believe it is possible to see tinnitus improvements with LLLT, but it takes a lot of effort and persistence - probably at least 6 months. This would be my only criticism of Dr. Wilden; he should - in my opinion - provide more realistic treatment protocols for patients so that they know how long to keep at it for. I ended up doing 3 times as much therapy as he had initially recommended upon examining my very first audiogram (which forms the basis for the treatment protocol thereafter). That is why I "gave up" after two months and started looking into stem cells. Had I known that I should have kept going for a while longer, I would probably have done that instead.

I also believe that investing in a clinic grade laser is worthwhile considering - ie. a laser such as the Luminex model (output up to 500 mW).

 

Thanks a lot for the thorough answer @attheedgeofscience. As for the second question, I meant more like if it would matter if I got the treatment 2 weeks after the onset or for ex 4 months after? (where I'm at now). But maybe you meant "no", between the lines .

Looking at my hearing tests I guess there is a big chance I will see improvement to my hearing at least, which might make it worth it if I'll see results as quick as you did, I'm thinking..

 

The more recent, the better; but "recent" on the LLLT-timescale has a much more relaxed definition than what you have for something like steroid injections (which must be given within 24/48 hours after onset of hearing loss or tinnitus). So whether you go after 2 weeks or 4 months makes no difference. The most important factor is the degree of damage (= hearing loss).

I should also add that it is biologically impossible for LLLT not to work. To say that LLLT has no effect on a living cell is like saying gravity doesn't work; gravity will always "work" whether we want it to or not. The same is true for LLLT; when cells are exposed to an energy source they will utilize that energy (whether we want it or not - it is not a process we can decide on, so to speak). When a cell is supplied with more energy than it consumes, it will over time begin to regenerate. Only exception to this rule is when the cell is completely dead.

I prefer not to get involved in other people's decision making (ie. whether you should or should not do something); so I'd rather not comment on that directly. You can always send Dr. Wilden your audiograms and ask for his advice. He will be happy to help you.

 

@attheedgeofscience I understand. Thanks for the info. Do you maybe know how good Dr. Wilden's english skills are? His website has a lot of grammatical as well as spelling errors (which isn't really helping with his credibility), and I wonder if I should write my letter in english, or have a friend translate it for me into german before I send it to him. What do you think?

 

Hi Philip83,
I just made contact today. I filled out the free consultation form on his website and emailed him my audiogram. I just sent it in in English. I imagine that he can translate it if he needs to.

 

Hi gang,
Dr. Wilden responded to me today. After reviewing my audiogram, he recommended his
Lux Spa Home Laser for 2,660.00€. That is approximately $3,500.00 US. I am going to make the purchase and give it a try. (I have to wait a few weeks to save up some money first). There doesn't seem to be any harmful side effects. It looks like the worst case scenario is that I would just be out the money. That would stink. Hopefully, it that will not be the case.

I know that there are mixed feeling about LLLLT. I think that I'd rather give something a try then just wait around. If it works, I'll spread the joy (along with my well documented data and audiograms). If it doesn't work, I'll still update all of you on my progress.
-Brian

 

He speaks English. When I was there, around this time last year, there were some people from the US Airforce stationed in Germany at his clinic. There is also one of the lead engineers from the McLaren F1 team who gets a treatment there once per year. Also (rich) people from the middle east will come visit him every now and then (as there is no similar treatment available in their part of the world).

He has several websites - the following one in German is pretty flawless: www.dasgesundeohr.de

I do believe I found similar problems as you mentioned with some of his English websites (eg. www.dr-wilden.de). I don't know why he does not get it done professionally (ie. professionally translated). I think it is a matter of money - and from what I understood when I met him last year, he likes to spend his time updating and documenting his websites, himself. He is a bit of a scientist. He really believes in his therapy. I just wish there would be more exact treatment protocols and prognosis models. Part of the problem is (probably) due to the mechanism of the physiology of the inner ear: once tinnitus erupts, the inner ear will have been in an overstrained state for quite some time. Reversing that damage is not done "overnight".

...And as I say, I did not really find any relief after 2 months of therapy. But, I was impressed by the fact that he was able to reverse hearing loss by up to 25db. I recommend anyone wishing to attempt the therapy, to start off with the therapy at the clinic. Then keep up the therapy at home and see what happens after 6,12, or 18 months.

 

I wish that I could do the therapy at the clinic but I am unable to do that at the moment. Dr. Wilden seems to think that the home laser will do the trick. I guess we'll see what happens. I plan to document my case like you did. When did you start to feel an improvement in your hearing, attheedgeofscience? Was it within the first 6 months of treatment or after?

 

When I showed up at Dr. Wilden's clinic in Regensburg on the 5th day of treatment, the audiologist at the clinic asked me specifically to get an audiogram done. I was a bit surprised - but positively so - since an audiogram would be an indicator as to whether the treatment works or not. Keep in mind that, at that stage, I was still skeptical as to whether the treatment would work or not. So I did the audiogram. And indeed, after just four days of therapy, I could already spot the first early indications of an improvement (see audiogram from June 14th in this post):

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/my-introduction.1862/#post-39035

The clinic is/was quite "strict" about doing audiograms because they want to ensure that the therapy is working as it should. So if a person does not experience any improvements after the first 5 sessions or so, then they don't want to continue to waste the patient's money. However, in my opinion, anyone doing the therapy will experience an improvement in their hearing threshold. And that is also what one of the audiologists told me (ie. it is biologically impossible not to gain an improvement). But they still insist on being able to document that improvement (for the patient's benefit).

Speaking of "money" - as you mentioned earlier on - this is something I have not really given a lot of thought on in any of my posts (they have all been focused on the therapy itself and the results); costs have taken a "secondary" place, in other words. But at the end of the day, treatment costs play as an important factor as treatment results. And so looking at the therapy from a cost-benefit point-of-view, I would probably describe it as "pricey" and possibly even as "money not well spent" ie. I did 10 hours of clinic laser therapy and also bought a home laser - both of which at the end of day did not bring about any change in my tinnitus (during the two month period). But you could also look at it this way: suppose the treatment does show results after 6 months or so, then perhaps the treatment is fair value (after all, the advantage of a home laser is that you can keep using it "free of charge" after you bought it). But the advantage of the clinic therapy is that it speeds up the recovery process quite considerably. There are treatment protocols based on the Arndt-Schultz law of pharmacology that explain why this is (I have commented on this within the LLLT thread elsewhere on this site). Dr. Wilden uses treatment protocols which are in the upper range of cold laser therapy (cold laser therapy range = 0 - 500 mw). This is the output range in which lasers are considered to have a therapeutic effect. If you go beyond that output, you will start to have a detrimental effect (ie. you move from cold laser to hot laser territory). There are also other factors such as wavelength, treatment duration, and laser beam focus which play a role.

I was never under the impression that Dr. Wilden was after my money. He specifically said that I should start with just five sessions to begin with (instead of the recommended 10). He also asked me to wait a while before making the home laser purchase. The purchase was my decision. Not his.

I drove down to Regensburg for my 11th visit to the clinic on the 5th of August, 2013 in order to get one last audiogram done (but no clinic therapy this time). The audiogram showed further improvement. As I got back into my car, and closed the door, I awaited the usual piercing tinnitus whine that would develop when shielded from noise. But on this very day, at that very moment, for the first time, I experienced a specific change in my tinnitus loudness and intrusion level. As I drove back to Leipzig (300 km) I had many reflections as to whether I should continue with the therapy or move onto stem cells instead. The drop in my tinnitus level did not continue to last. And hence I decided to consider LLLT "a closed chapter" a few days later. But I still clearly recall that specific moment on a sunny afternoon day in Regensburg.

I probably do wish that I had given LLLT a bit more thought back then. However, in my defense, I had done everything that was asked of me (x 3). I wish that there would be more high-end cold laser therapy studies done in order to establish a more reliable treatment protocol. Before deciding on a purchase, I would recommend you perhaps speak with the owner of the following website http://healingmenieres.wordpress.com for her reflections on the Luminex laser.

I would also like to share one piece of information about my audiograms that I haven't mentioned before: for my audiogram on the 14th of June, you will notice a 50db hearing loss for my bone conduction test, left ear; this is no accident - I deliberately decided not to push the button during the audiology exam as I wanted to see if my audiogram data was somehow being manipulated by the clinic. This was evidently not the case.

If you are based in the US, then I recommend possibly having a look at the AM101 clinical trial. At least that does not cost anything...

 

If I regain my hearing, then it will be money well spent. And if the tinnitus disappears, I'll consider that a bonus! If you know of a clinic in the USA, please let me know. I would certainly consider it. Also, I did speak with the Luminex owner about the laser. It seems to have done the job too. Personally, I think I'm gonna stick with the one that Dr. Wilden recommends. Since he reviewed my audiogram, he probably knows what is best for my situation. As far as the AM 101 trial is concerned, where in the US is it being held? On the link you attached, it looks like the trial is just in Germany.

Thank you for all of your helpful information, advice, etc... I look forward to your posts. I like this site because I feel that we are all here to help each other. My stress level is much lower, since I joined.

 

Speeding up the recovery is always good! In your own opinion, do you think that the end result would be about the same but just take longer if I only did the home laser?

 

See this: http://healingmenieres.wordpress.com/how-to-find-treatment-in-the-usa/

The lady from the healingmenieres website specifically mentions how she switched from Dr. Wilden's unit to the the Luminex unit (because of the power output difference and it has different wavelengths too - ie. red and infrared). By using the Luminex laser, you are providing yourself with clinic grade laser therapy (at home). You definitely should have a conversation with her (if I were you). See also my next post.

I am not sure which link you are referring to; there is a whole novel on the AM101 trial on this forum (at present 47 pages long...!):

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/am-101-tactt1-results-released.1994/page-46#post-59875

The clinical trial link for AM101 is: http://www.tinnitus-study.info/ (you will find a link for the US study centres there; I don't know how much longer they will keep on recruiting - and you will also need to be in the within 3 months since onset group, I believe. There is another group for up to 12 months since onset of tinnitus, but it comes with certain restrictions - and I can't remember what those restrictions are; contact them! - my advice...).

 

I am attaching my two latest audiograms (the second one of the two was not disclosed in the LLLT thread as I decided to withhold it because of the way Dr. Nagler trashed the whole thread - I will not be rejoining the thread; the credibility of the treatment is gone for good).





The audiograms have specifically been stamped by the clinic performing the evaluation (to prove they are authentic). They were done two months apart. The 12,5 kHz frequency test was repeated twice for both audiograms. There is not really any improvement after two months of intensive home laser therapy (if anything there is a slight worsening). I am unable to explain why that is. The main possible factor is that the clinic performing the hearing test is just a normal audiologist/ENT office. They don't have proper audiology facilities ie. sound-proofed room and segregation of patient/audiologist. And also the audiologist was a bit of a "half-brain"; as an example, when I showed up at the clinic for the 2nd test and asking specifically for a non-standard 0 - 12,5 kHz evaluation, she immediately responded "we never do those here." I then proceeded to give her a funny stare, after which I pulled out my previous audiology 0 - 12,5 kHz test performed at the same clinic and by the same audiologist...!!! [If in doubt look at the handwriting on the audiogram...]. During the test, she was fiddling about using her PC-controlled audiology testing equipment - which of course creates noise. And background noise is never a good thing when testing hearing thresholds close to 0 db. So in my opinion, the results are not really valid for "scientific purposes". However, I had expected to see some slight improvement at the higher frequencies (especially 12,5 kHz). I wanted a pulsed test, but the audiologist (again) did not know what such basic things are, and could therefore not provide it. The reason I wanted a pulsed test is because I suspect my tinnitus frequency is influencing the hearing test at certain frequencies (eg. 12,5 kHz).

Since the clinic apparently never uses 0 - 12,5 kHz tests, I am also slightly concerned as to whether their equipment is properly calibrated. On the other hand, it could also be that the test results are in fact an actual and accurate picture of my hearing capability - in which case, the LLLT has had no effect at all. I do believe the powerful clinic grade lasers make a difference, which is why I also recommend that (if someone actually decides to pursue the LLLT option).

Lastly, there are those who believe that Dr. Wilden's audiograms are manipulated. I don't believe that is so. Certainly, my first audiogram above done 18/MAR/2014 shows a clear improvment against my very first audiogram done last year 10/JUN/2013 at Dr. Wilden's clinic before commencing any LLLT; the notch of 20db at 2 kHz, left ear, has specifically "erradicated." And this improvement has been confirmed independently as you can now see (compare with audiograms on page 1 of this thread).

The notch of 20db at 4 kHz visible on the audiogram done 22/MAY/2014 is probably an "error" and not an actual indication of my hearing at that frequency ie. I suspect that my "real" hearing capability at that frequency probably is what it has always been (about 5-10db). However, the worsening hearing at the higher frequencies is difficult to explain.

 

I got a reply from DRr. Wilden the other day. He suggested I go straight for the Lux Spa Home Laser device. Looking at this thread though I'm a bit confused about what is the best route/option to go for. Should I go for the Lux Spa one or a Luminex one? And why is the Lux Spa device only outputting 30mw and the Laser Pen 80mw?

Another thing I've been thinking about is the accuracy of aim with these home devices. As far as I know laser light is super concentrated, and it would seem quite arbitrary how you aim these devices into your ear. How do you know if you're doing it right?

 

Let me make a general observation here (not aimed at you specifically). I see a lot of questions on this forum, but not always a lot of "action." The successful "pioneer" in any field must have at least two qualities:

1) Ask questions.
2) Take action.

I have pointed the way in terms of LLLT; as a second step, why not invite the lady from the healing menieres website to join this forum and ask her to share her input. If anything, she must know about the differences - she has used both devices and has already confirmed that she favours the Luminex model (citing the high output rating - something I agree with from my clinic therapy experience). Make a habit of contacting people - and asking them for their advice. As an example, just this week, I contacted two leading people in the field of potassium modulators.

That would be a question for Dr. Wilden.

As far as I know, the Lux Spa device is made so that it is held in place by your outer ear (ie. usage is foolproof). The laser pen requires you to know in which direction you should point it (which is to point it so that the beam is shone slight backwards towards the back of the neck).

 

I went to the web page to see where it is clinic located and it says that they have moved to Ibiza?

 

Any improvement in natural hearing is money well spent regardless if T improves or not. IMO.

 

Update: I have contacted the lady, Sam, from the healingmenieres website, and asked for her input. I will share an update if/when I get it. Alternatively, she may join the forum herself to share her thoughts.