My Introduction...

No side effects except temporarily increased tinnitus and possibly some vertigo. I only experienced the former side effect. Both are harmless.

FDA clearance for LLLT - in one specific instance (and hence proving it works and that it is safe).

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/01/prweb11487905.htm

Almost any medical application can have side effects if used incorrectly. As and example - if you shine the laser light into your eyes - and for a prolonged period of time, then yes, there will be consequences...! As for radiation: well, we are not talking about gamma or x-ray radiation which can go right through the thickness of the human body and carrying a different kind of energy. The red light wavelength has a finite reach - but even if it did "reach the brain", then I don't think there would be any harm done (ie. they are using LLLT technology in hair re-growth dermatology for some years now; and radiation in those applications would reach the outer layer of the brain - but despite of that, the product is cleared - and hence considered safe).

LLLT laser technology for the visible and infra-red spectrum is safe. The only part of the light spectrum which is potentially unsafe in large doses is UV-light (as is well known from all the skin cancer campaigns).

 

I don't know if your question is intended for me or @rainman

But... If you buy the application from Dr. Wilden you will be allowed to contact him as much as you like for advice (free of charge). Suggested treatment is about 15-25 minutes per day, 5 days per (7-day) week for 80 mW. For 30 mW, I think the treatment is anywhere from 30-60 minutes for long term treatment. No side effects when using it long term.

Currently, I am using my 80 mW for 1½ hours per day. I will be going up to 2 hours shortly.

 

Hi,
thanks a lot for your reply. (I didn't see your writing in my Alerts, that's why I am back with some day delay)
I will check your links, thank you a lot!
Yes, Dr. Wildens clinic seem to move, but it's still in progress.

Do you ever read something about this lasers, the site looks quit fancy.
http://www.konftec.com/html/ko_product_tinnitus.htm

Greets Tom

 

No problem. I think I added the tag @tomytl in "edit mode" which is probably why it didn't work.

Konftec lasers are seen as "discount lasers" in the laser world. They tend to loose their mW-rating over time. A high quality laser will last you a life-time. So go for that.

The diagram at the bottom of their homepage describes nicely what I was referring to in another post about how the different wavelengths target different parts of the cochlea (and corresponding hearing frequencies).

 

I agree with your observations about the (lack of) availability of LLLT around the world. The resistance towards LLLT in ENT medicine can probably be explained best by the following quote:

"An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: What does happen is that the opponents gradually die out."
--Max Planck, physicist

When I underwent my first stem cell treatment last summer, I recall some of the breakfast meeting conversations I had with the CEO of the resource organization that helped me locate stem cell clinics. The CEO is someone who knows doctors "all over the world" and attends medical gatherings and presentations - again - "all over the world". He explained to me the basic principle in psychology which tends to govern the medical community: young doctors are taught by older doctors, and due to the hierarchy that exists in medicine, a young doctor will not second guess the opinion of the older members - even if he/she has a different and correct opinion. He used chemotherapy as an example. This is still the standard choice for treating cancer even though the effectivness of the drug is astonishingly low. In fact, recent research suggests that chemotherapy actually makes cancerous tumours worse when they are small (because a "protective coating" will develop around the tumour). It is only the big tumours that will be reduced in size. When treatment ceases, the small tumours will then start to grow! And of course, as is well known, chemotherapy comes with a huge list of side effects, also.

If everyone got a regular preventive dose of LLLT, then hearing loss and tinnitus could be drastically reduced in our modern (and noisy) society. Public education on hearing loss and damage is also crucial. "99%" of all doctors have no awareness of this. Dr. Wilden does. And that is why he is seen as the "black sheep" within the established medical community.

To be a pioneer in medicine is go against the flow of conventional wisdom. It is often a lonely path. And it is a path that I have walked for a quite a while now.

 

Thanks for your detailed posts, always a valuable read. May I ask how the ketamine injections are going?

B

 

I need to refer you to this post of mine:

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/hypnotherapy.4386/#post-43168

Things are not going as planned (essentially one doctor promised "more than he could deliver"). I have been dealing with a lot of "red-tape" after that to get the decision overturned - but to no avail.

My Father - who lives in Switzerland - has been in direct contact with Auris Medical, and is trying "work out some deals". I don't think he will be successful, however. Board of management have already stated that the drug is not for "off label use".

The doctor "who promised more than he could deliver" has asked me to return to his clinic for "another solution". The clinic is in Germany. I don't know what that the "other solution" is, but I am assuming that he is going to try to use either Cortisone and/or Lidocaine (as an intratympanic procedure). I am not interested in that.

I will reach a conclusion at some point in the future, but I don't think the Ketamine injections will go ahead - because Ketamine must be mixed with Hyaluronic acid in order to achieve the tinnitus reducing effect. And there is only one supplier of that specific mixture today: Auris Medical...!

Initially, the procedure was essentially 100% likely to go ahead, which is why I posted it (in a public forum). I am always concerned about creating false hope, and so I will probably end up documenting to Markku the steps I have taken so that he knows my intentions were authentic. I cannot release the detailed information to a public forum. But, I can at least ask Markku to confirm to you (and others) that the planned procedure was not just "hot air".

The only other thing on "my radar" at the moment is this:

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...used-ultrasound-surgery.276/page-6#post-42580

 

@tomytl and @SteveToHeal the following document titled "Penetration of light into living tissue" explains the basic principles of lasers and which wavelengths to use in order to achieve a therapeutic effect, as well as how to maximize the use of lasers (ie. which steps help improve the penetration factor into the tissue).

It is a simple 3-page document. "Here you go":

http://www.laser.nu/lllt/pdf/Penetration.pdf

 

That's frustrating, I was hoping I might be able to bypass the trial as I don't fancy taking the risk and getting injected with a saline solution! I am still considering whether I will participate, if I do I'll of course keep everyone updated. Still the positive to draw from this is that if you'd have asked me 6 months ago I'd have tried anything, the fact that I am considering the risk demonstrates how one can adapt to the condition!

 

Hi ATEOS, do you have a date to see Dr Jeanmonod for scans and potential HIFU procedure? Fascinated to see what the scans show ...

 

Hi attheedgeofscience,

Do you have an email address that I can contact you on?

Thanks

 

Yes. But, is there a need? Is there anything you need to ask me which cannot tolerate seeing the light of day?

In any event, I don't really have much more to say about LLLT. I feel I have emptied my brain's content about 80%-90%...

 

November 6th, 2014. Scans used = EEG. Cost = CHF 2200,-

 

No problem. I'll post them in the light of day.

 

I see jchinnis and Dr. Nagler don't have great things to say about LLLT and Dr Wilden. I'm just surprised, because these guys are doctors. They pretty much write him off as a quack and scam artist in other posts.

Any comments on that? I understand if you don't want to get in a flaming session between forum members (hence my request to mail you privately), but i'm looking at everyone's input to make an informed decision.

 

Thanks - hope the laser treatment helps things in the meantime

 

So...?

To answer your question in more detail I have no choice but to quote myself (from a previous post):

"To be a pioneer in medicine is go against the flow of conventional wisdom. It is often a lonely path. And it is a path that I have walked for a quite a while now."
--attheedgeofscience, stem cell pioneer

and

"An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: What does happen is that the opponents gradually die out."
--Max Planck, physicist

Needless to say, the good Dr. Nagler puts in a lot of effort (and time) on this forum. But doctors are "institutionalized" with a conservative mindset - which begins right at the moment they walk into med school (and continues until they retire). "Thinking outside the box" is therefore a forbidden phrase amongst doctors. And hence the reason they will unlikely be the ones who contribute to finding a cure.

From time-to-time, I walk through the compounds of the University Hospital of Leipzig. It's a big site - a small village in itself, in fact. There are doctors everywhere you walk. And all wearing their distinctive white lab coats. But whatever their speciality in medicine, they only have a fraction of the knowledge on tinnitus that I possess. And I am not a doctor...

No. I don't really have a comment on that. Whatever your choice, it doesn't affect my sales numbers - because I am not in the medical business at all. I feel I have provided enough background information in terms of links, audiograms, and general information on LLLT. The rest is up to you.

Take care.

 

Hi,
I finally ordered my LLLT Laser. It's another trial which I hope gives me some relief on pressure in the ear or
some relief in hyperacusis.
I will get it in the next days.
All people claims it as scam, maybe it is, but I got so many medications from ENT's they didn't help, so
all this might be also scam...
The thing it makes me think I should give a try is, that LLLT is also used in other chronic disease therapies.

I let you all know, if there is some advance..

Greets Tom

 

Thanks tomytl,

I am really keen to hear how it goes with your LLLT Laser. Do you mind saying which one you purchased and for how much?

There are those for and those against.
Naysayers: Have a look at the last post on this thread: https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/hypnotherapy.4386/page-2 by Dr Nagler.
And proponents: To mention one, attheedgeofscience, as above. And many other people who have shared their success stories.

I guess in the end, it's up to the patient to decide either way. If it wasn't so damn expensive, I'd give it a try and see. Desperation in the suffering from T, prescribes the next action... and sometimes its throwing the dice.

I really hope it goes well for you. Let me know how it goes. I'll be following your progress keenly.
All the best and thanks a lot for sharing with the community.

Steve

 

Steve,

Many of the studies on LLLT are studies using insufficient laser power (mW). In fact, from my conservations with Dr. Wilden last summer, there is evidence that some/many of the studies were purposely carried out with insufficient power so that the "experiment" would fail. A study designed-to-fail, in other words.

Dr. Wilden uses 200 mW dual red and infra-red lasers for 2 x 30 minutes per day. The studies often quoted will use eg. 2 x 5 min. with 5, 10, or 15 mW. A laser with 5 mW is essentially the equivalent of a laser pointer used in presentations; there is no way you can treat hearing disorders with that.

There is big money behind hearing aids - and corporations in that line of business will do anything to keep a lid on the truth about LLLT. This was something Dr. Wilden mentioned on each occasion I saw him. And no wonder since I managed to reverse up to 25db of hearing loss in 2 months at a price equivalent to that of a hearing aid. But of course, this is not just about the cost, it is also about the quality of life. People who opt for LLLT 1) don't have to wear a hearing aid, and 2) don't have further deterioration in their hearing from using their hearing aid (don't forget a hearing aid creates noise all day long; not so smart when it is usually noise that created the problem in the first place).

Please also be mindful of the following fact: I have never claimed that LLLT has personally helped me with my tinnitus. Because it didn't. But, I think the results I have achieved and documented by my audiograms are "interesting". And the thing I like about audiograms is that they are "hard facts" - indisputable evidence. And as stated, I think it might be helpful with tinnitus if I carry on long enough (as per instructions in my other posts).

Has LLLT won the Nobel Prize? No, it hasn't. But then again - has anything won the Nobel Prize when it comes to tinnitus treatments?

Take care,
attheedgeofscience

(I will now definitely be leaving TT for a long while to come. I will only check the forum sporadically, if at all).

 

I hope you'll stay ATEOS, your posts are always great to read.

 

Hey attheedgeofscience

Please don't leave on my account. I am only shopping around to be certain. The more I hear about LLLT, the more convinced I am, that I should try it. However, it is a lot of money to spend. So I the more first hand unbiased (like yours) success stories I hear, the more willing I will be to part with my hard earned cash. Call me a skeptic but I have to be certain.

So please keep posting to the forums if you have time. Your posts are invaluable as lapidus says. We all benefit greatly from your endevours that most of us would not try, such as your stem cell treatment, LLLT etc.

All the best
Steve

 

Okay - no problem. I will check in about two weeks from now with an update on my self-prescribed high dosage LLLT therapy.

 

Hi Steve
I have asked my friend to look at the LLLT too (of course, if ATEOS finds it works, then that is first-hand experience and therefore invaluable). My friend is a leading laser eye surgeon, he was top of his year in medicine at Merton College, Oxford, has pioneered several leading developments in laser surgery and in addition to his own clinic, is an associate professor at Harvard. I'll post as soon as I hear back from him on whether or not he thinks the LLLT could feasibly be of significant benefit and why.

 

Thanks LondonGirl,

That's great. Yes, ATEOS has had first hand experience, which, as you say, is invaluable. I agree. We will also hear the updates from tomytl, re his recent purchase and advances. The more people that have had a current positive experience from the latest in LLLT, then the more it adds weight to people choosing this route as a way out of tinnitus hell and suffering.

All we can do is hope. Hopefully your surgeon friend can also shed some light (excuse the pun) on their experience, knowledge and efficacy of LLLT.

Thanks so much. I take it you are based in the UK. Are you also suffering with T?

Steve

 

Hi, yes and yes! I have gone from suicidal (and I mean literally) to it's a damn nuisance but I'm getting on with life. I am by nature someone who likes to do lots but also need a lot of quiet, calm time alone (Yang and Yin I guess) so I feel that my peaceful times have been somewhat spoilt - as so many others have felt, it's a kind of grief about the loss of silence. I would say that my relative and limited 'acceptance' now was facilitated by carefully and professionally prescribed medication to calm me, a bit of talking therapy, loving support of family and friends, time and, if I'm honest, a hope that there will be a cure before too long. My friend to whom I refer to above says that so far in his professional life whenever he has had an idea and someone has told him that it isn't possible, he has done it - there are many naysayers in the medical world, and he has pioneered some ground-breaking stuff that his more cynical colleagues now accept and use, such as robotic laser eye operations. I am going to see how some of the current tinnitus research initiatives pan out and if nothing comes to fruition I will do TRT.

 

I don't know how much you know about lasers, but please be aware that the lasers used in eye surgery are not the same as the ones used in regenerative medicine. Eye lasers (= YAG lasers) are so-called "hot lasers" (as opposed to "cold-lasers" = the ones used in low-lever laser therapy). A hot laser "cuts", a cold laser doesn't. An eye surgeon could probably spend his or her entire career in laser surgery and never come across a cold-laser (because it wouldn't be of any value to them).

The fields of medicine currently using cold lasers the most are: dermatology and sports-medicine (= physiotherapists, mainly). Lately there are experiments being conducted in the field of neurology to see if patients suffering from Bell's Palsy can regenerate their damaged facial nerves using LLLT. This would be the closest application to that of Dr. Wilden's therapy (probably). If your friend wants to help you out, that would be my lead...

 

Yip - i'm there. Have been suicidal on those bad 10 days. I managed to get rid of T, 15 odd years ago so i'm really bummed that it is back. Back then it habituated naturally. Unfortunatley, i'm not at your point of it only being a nuisance factor (even though you have been through hell to get there! I know) so i can't sit around and let it habituate naturally. Its just too loud this time, so i'm actively searching for options. Have tried CBT, Zen Widex hearing aids with fractal sounds, accupuncture, mind and sleep meds, supplements, physio, chiro, pysch, friend and family support etc. You know the drill. I've also considered TRT and I might do that in tandem with the laser, if I do decide to go that route. And then the first prize of a final cure. We can all pray for that. Your friend sounds like they are making some massive breakthroughs. That is fantastic. Hopefully, he can come up with something for T.

Was your T from an acoustic trauma? How long did it take before it no longer bothered you? Was it the first time you got T or is this a relapse?

 

Nope, no acoustic trauma, just came on gradually over a few weeks and got worse. Nothing previously. No apparent or audiogram measured hearing loss (but that is debatable I guess). It definitely bothers me still significantly, just not enough now for me not want to be around anymore, and not enough to stop me doing stuff. But it's always at the back of my mind (and quite often the front) so I am no role model I'm afraid
My friend works with different kind of lasers (as ATEOS mentioned) so unfortunately he won't be coming up with anything for tinnitus, but he will be able to access papers and information that I can't and he will understand them!

 

Completely agreed.