New University of Michigan Tinnitus Discovery — Signal Timing

Discussion in 'Research News' started by Hudson, Jun 20, 2013.

    1. John Mahan

      John Mahan Member

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      unknown
      Even if we have to steal one of the machines and use it 30 minutes a day into perpetuity, it maybe worth it to keep the noise off our doorstep. :)

      This made me think of something. I was cruising YouTube and there was this nice lady talking about her experience with Lenire which is now up and going as many know and there are quite a few positive testimonials on YouTube.

      This lady said when the 12 weeks was up, she lied about not being home so she couldn't return the device and she said she kept it and used it for 2 more weeks. :)

      Me personally...when asked to return the machine? Sorry but my dog ate it along with my homework. Bad Fido. :p

      Hilarious Guilty Dogs Compilation 2016!
       
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    2. Fabrikat

      Fabrikat Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1973
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Otosclerosis then volume then viral infection
      I don't think this question has been covered before, but does anyone know if Susan Shore's device will have the same hearing loss limits for potential users as for Neuromod's device? Has she given any clues at all in this regard?
       
    3. ChrisBoyMonkey

      ChrisBoyMonkey Member Podcast Patron

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise
      From people that have emailed her regarding the trial hearing loss seems to be less of an issue for her device, but she hasn't been specific other than people should be able to hear the sounds of her treatment.
       
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    4. Stefaniie

      Stefaniie Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Hereditary hearing loss/noise exposure
      People have asked but she won't answer. I understand she most likely isn't allowed to discuss it while trials are still ongoing, but still. I wish they would just come out and say if they believe this treatment will work for those with more severe hearing loss. If it does, then it gives us hope. If it doesn't, at least we won't have to be devastated when the device finally comes out and it turns out we're ineligible. The not knowing is awful.
       
    5. Fabrikat

      Fabrikat Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1973
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Otosclerosis then volume then viral infection
      Yes! Lenire's exclusions hurt a lot. If Susan Shore's device has the same limits, then things are going to look pretty bleak for some us for a fair while longer.
       
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    6. Bobbette

      Bobbette Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
       
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    7. all to gain
      No Mood

      all to gain Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      June 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      never trust a doctor
      Damn, mine isn't.

      I didn't realise most people's is somatic.
       
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    8. ChrisBoyMonkey

      ChrisBoyMonkey Member Podcast Patron

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise
      Try clenching your teeth or moving your jaw around. If it gets louder or quieter, or pretty much changes in any way, it's somatic. I think there are more ways to check for it but that's the best I know that comes to mind because that's how mine is. She still hasn't confirmed if it does or doesn't work for non-somatic yet.
       
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    9. Daniel Lion
      Ape-like

      Daniel Lion Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      SE Asia
      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise trauma, hearing loss
      Me too, mine doesn’t change, but that doesn’t mean we are out of the game.
      Let’s stay positive... 2020s should bring something... if not... well that’s another road we can deal with later.
       
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    10. all to gain
      No Mood

      all to gain Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      June 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      never trust a doctor
      Daniel, i haven't got the slightest bit of positivity in me! Life is torture. And saying the words 'should bring' gives me no hope. Sorry for the doom.
       
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    11. Johnny Karate
      Barefooter

      Johnny Karate Member

      Location:
      USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/02/18
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Viagra, naproxen, jamming out in bands loud music for years
      Mine goes way higher pitched when I open my mouth wide, does that mean it is somatic?
       
    12. Selah1281

      Selah1281 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      A Living Hell
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      yes
       
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    13. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      temporarily banished from this plane of existence.
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      karma
      If and when a UMich device emerges, I will be very curious to see it used by people who have clear noise trauma or HL involvement but no discovered somatic triggers.

      I do not want to provide any false hope, but I think it's worth explaining something I don't have a good answer to (which would be a great question to ask one of the lab techs, for anyone who might be involved in a current trial and reading this).

      In the animal studies which proceeded the development of the human protocols, as far as I know, no differentiation was made between "somaticly involved experimental animals" and not. Meaning, the study protocol was just:
      • invoke noise trauma in animals with sustained ~90dB noise (don't remember exact number but it wasn't staggeringly over OSHA limits)
      • differentiate between tinnitus animals and non tinnitus animals (complex; explained in publicly available information)
      • treat tinnitus animals with experimental device and re-assess tinnitus over time

      Selecting only a patient group / cohort with obvious somatic involvement, has been done I believe because there is a hypothesis that the device will work more reliably in this group based on how it works, and because the goal of a pre-market study is to use the cohort most likely to show a clear benefit with a high confidence.

      We don't know what we don't know, but I'll tell you what @Daniel Lion -- if I ever get one of these things, you should come visit my wooded wonderland for a few weeks and take it for a test ride. I think my family would allow it if you're cool sleeping in a tent on a platform.
       
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    14. Daniel Lion
      Ape-like

      Daniel Lion Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      SE Asia
      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise trauma, hearing loss
      Thanks man, your words really mean a lot.

      I am not looking for a “savior” as some have posted.

      I’ve reconciled myself to a tough road but one still full of joy and wonder.
      Such is life when your disabled, I am stupid but not naive.

      Anyhoo, if some relief comes... great, if it doesn’t, so be it.
      Either way sleeping under the stars in Vermont is awesome and I will not be robbed of life’s beauty... well ok robbed a little from time to time.

      I am gonna continue to fight for me and my family.
      I took them to a festival last night, boat racing, it’s the end of Bhuddist Lent. It’s loud.
      I found a quiet spot and chilled away from the chaos and read and drank fruit shakes.
      Two hours later my kids and wife came back exhausted and happy. My son said it was way too loud for me, even for him. I apologized I couldn’t be with them, everyone was “we love you dad, it’s cool”...

      There you go, a day in the life of Daniel.

      Appreciate our friendship... take care.
       
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    15. Mitch

      Mitch Member

      Location:
      Ontario, CA
      Tinnitus Since:
      02/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud noise
      Thank you for posting this, I wasn't sure if my tinnitus is somatic or not, but I now notice it gets louder and higher pitch if I push my jaw forward or if I yawn or stretch.
       
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    16. Mr.Drop
      Stressed

      Mr.Drop Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      07/2007
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Ear trauma, ototoxicity
      I wonder if it will work if there are several different frequencies in tones and hisses.
       
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    17. Daniel Lion
      Ape-like

      Daniel Lion Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      SE Asia
      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise trauma, hearing loss
      I bought 200 kilos of terracotta clay yesterday. I am going to make a small sculpture of Dr. Shore. She is a genius and super hot, as in attractive. I will post on completion and of course send her a photo or copy. She is one of my heroes.
       
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    18. Mitch

      Mitch Member

      Location:
      Ontario, CA
      Tinnitus Since:
      02/2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud noise
      I am curious why it matters at all whether the tinnitus is somatic or not for the purpose of Dr. Shore's treatment. If the source of tinnitus is the dorsal cochlear nucleus as she claims, why would bimodal stimulation not work for people with non-somatic tinnitus?

      The most I could find on this was this interview with Dr. Shore:
       
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    19. Instant_exit

      Instant_exit Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/10/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      acoustic trauma
      Im sitting here looking at this https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/10/422/eaal3175/tab-figures-data and https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/scitransmed/suppl/2017/12/27/10.422.eaal3175.DC1/aal3175_SM.pdf and trying to figure out what they are actually doing here.

      For me, the actual timings between audio and electrical stimulations are very unclear. What is the reference of the timings? Is it the start of the auditory stimulation, the middle, the end? Looking at this (attached) picture of a guinea pig from earlier research from the team, you can see on the left side where tone stimulus is 50ms long that the reference is always the start of the auditory stimulation, but on the right side for the 10ms it is not. On the 10ms side, all electrical stimulation preceeding audiotory seems to have the start of the audio as reference, and all stimulation after the audio seems to have the end as reference.

      If you were to use the same logic on the 10ms side as for the 50ms side, -5ms stimulation would come in the middle of the tone, and not with a 5ms gap after the audio has ended, as shown in the picture. Its pretty unclear to what reference the timings in relation to the 10ms audio file are refering to. There seems to be an error of logic here in the picture, and im trying to figure out what reference to timing is the correct. See picture of guinea pig to understand what I mean.


      In the human/guinea-pig study in 2018 they used 10ms tones paired with -5ms bimodal stimulation (audiotory stimulation preceeding electric stimulation by 5ms). Is that 5ms after the 10ms tone has ended, or 5ms after the start of the tone? (Which would put the electric stimulus in the middle of the 10ms tone) See my Illustration for clarity.

      I should probably just email them and ask, but I figured someone here might know the answer.
      It is not very clear to me at least.

      Cheers,
      J
       

      Attached Files:

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    20. Autumnly
      Wishful

      Autumnly Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame Advocate

      Location:
      Germany
      Tinnitus Since:
      July/August 2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      In case anyone missed it, she said (starting at 04:15min) they’re expecting the results from Phase 2 by the middle of 2020.
       
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    21. vttbx

      vttbx Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2001
    22. ChrisBoyMonkey

      ChrisBoyMonkey Member Podcast Patron

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise
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    23. Rb86

      Rb86 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      5/31/19
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise
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    24. ee9892

      ee9892 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Life
      Participants sign an NDA to not disclose information while the trial is underway. This makes sense.
       
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    25. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      temporarily banished from this plane of existence.
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      karma
      Maybe they did in the phase II, but we definitely didn't get NDA'd in the phase I and I posted a bunch on here before and right after.
      upload_2019-11-5_11-12-56.png

      With a study completion date 3 years in the future I am not quite sure what you're expecting here.

      There has not been a lack of expected business-as-usual press releases from the lab in the meantime, and I believe Dr. Shore has been interviewed about current status within the next few months?

      Compared to drug trials, this is all moving astoundingly quickly. The lab is not going to have anything useful to say about a blinded study which is still in process; if you could make meaningful observations about what was happening before data aggregation and unblinding.... it would mean that your blinding process doesn't work and so the data you're producing is useless anyway.

      There's nothing unusual about relative information darkness from research institutions while said research is actively being conducted in RCTs. Contrast this with venture-backed capitalist endeavors, which necessarily have a group of financially invested stakeholders that they might try to appease by putting out frequent PR with colorful infographics showing their own analysis of their data, without publishing full data sets, and even more damningly without using placebo control at all in their methodologies...

      ...not that I am calling out any specific entities or organizations, of course.
       
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    26. ee9892

      ee9892 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Life
      I'm in the phase 2 trial. There's an NDA section in the initial papers you sign now.
       
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    27. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      temporarily banished from this plane of existence.
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      karma
      It's entirely possible I signed something to and promptly forgot. My short term memory isn't what it used to be, thanks in no small part to the trifecta of chemicals I use to suppress the noise...
       
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    28. ChrisBoyMonkey

      ChrisBoyMonkey Member Podcast Patron

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise
      Did you seriously miss the interview we have with her posted about a month ago?



      Cured in mice is Dr. Bao's cautionary warning on his research. He has to verify safety of the pill before starting human trials. It could be the full on cure cure though. I have no idea why you'd use such a ridiculous and irrelevant analogy to compare his research to. He's been looking into tinnitus for quite a few years too.

      It's kinda funny how you're mocking the research that's probably gonna save you. It's almost like you want to hurt.
       
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    29. Selah1281

      Selah1281 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      A Living Hell
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      He’s just frustrated and suffering. We all are. @Rb86 is normally all about positivity and success stories.
       
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    30. ChrisBoyMonkey

      ChrisBoyMonkey Member Podcast Patron

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise
      Could be, but taking it out on the world is selfish. Also, I just can't stand the spreading of misinformation.
       
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