New University of Michigan Tinnitus Discovery — Signal Timing

Discussion in 'Research News' started by Hudson, Jun 20, 2013.

    1. DaveFromChicago

      DaveFromChicago Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Headcold/Flu
      What occurred to me:
      If this Bimodulation has such potential, then why is it being developed in only such relatively isolated sites as Dublin and a small city in Michigan?
      Why aren't at least a dozen major University/Research Centers in the largest metropolitan areas competing for the first, best product?
       
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    2. Josdela
      Curious

      Josdela Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      09/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Nihl
      It's simple, there are other health conditions that interest them more, tinnitus is not a nuisance to the medical, scientific and university community.
       
      • Agree Agree x 1
    3. GlennS

      GlennS Member Podcast Patron

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      I think you answered your own question. Hype is about wishful thinking about what something is rather than the reality. Now that the hype bubble is bursting for Lenire, hope is shifting here.
       
    4. thinlay
      Chicken

      thinlay Member

      Location:
      PARIS
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      syndrome of costen ? not sure
      In the good or the bad sense?
       
    5. GlennS

      GlennS Member Podcast Patron

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      I dunno. Both? I feel like the epitome of tinnitus coping mechanisms is to hold onto hope for treatments even if down deep you know it's a longshot. I know it helps me get through the day.
       
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    6. thinlay
      Chicken

      thinlay Member

      Location:
      PARIS
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      syndrome of costen ? not sure
      Science is moving very fast.
       
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    7. MRItechssuck

      MRItechssuck Member

      Location:
      USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      2002-2015, 10/17/2019-?
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud noise, MRI
      For people that have had tinnitus for 20 years, no... science is not moving very fast... not at all, in my opinion.

      For an allegedly prolific issue... I see zero commercials or mentions of tinnitus, or the loudness of anything.

      You would think with everyone wearing their little earpods, someone would caution against hearing damage, but sadly no.

      I knew 20 years ago the damage that walkmans were doing to hearing... yet I still see new people with headphone hearing damage every week on this board (and I have been a member for 5 weeks!).

      Industry is not on our side... when there are $3000 hearing aids, supplement manufacturers, dumb ENTs raking in the cash, rap stars blasting their music on tv... yeah... aside from a handful of researchers looking for gov handouts... we are left on our own.

      We will never compete with the profits.
       
      • Agree Agree x 7
    8. ChrisBoyMonkey

      ChrisBoyMonkey Member Podcast Patron

      Location:
      CA
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      U.S. Army/Field Artillery Veteran
      Neuromodulation is still relatively new and is being tested for many kinds of diseases. We're lucky to have these people looking into tinnitus with it now.
       
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    9. GlennS

      GlennS Member Podcast Patron

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      I think it's important to avoid bitterness. I mean, Pete Townshend had already raised the issue of tinnitus before I acquired mine in the early 90s. I knew what the risks were and I was just careless. There have been many awareness raising campaigns over the years. The recent Star is Born movie showed the high stakes. People (especially youngsters) are just too reckless and assume their bodies are sturdier than they actually are. You take that and add to it the biological fragility of the ear, more fragile than other animals like birds who can regenerate their hearing, and the inherent difficulty of devising a treatment... I really think it's not a matter of just throwing money at the problem and voila. Nobody really knows if this is truly treatable or not. It's right up there with trying to cure things like parkinson's or epilepsy.
       
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    10. Stefaniie

      Stefaniie Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Hereditary hearing loss/noise exposure
      I only remembered this after I got tinnitus but they taught us about the dangers of being exposed to too much loud noise back when I was in middle school, I think it was. (I am 22 now). I remember learning specifically about tinnitus. Talk about foreshadowing.

      Anyway, I forgot about all of it pretty much as soon as the psa was over. And it was never brought up again. It's good to teach younger kids about this but they should target older kids as well. High school and college. Keep bringing it up until it gets through peoples heads... mentioning it once won't have any affect. Even then, they might have an "oh well if it happens it happens" attitude. People who don't have tinnitus just don't understand. They don't think it's that big of a deal. Even when they hear people complain about how tortuous it is, they think we're just being dramatic. People love to believe that there isn't anything they can't bounce back from.
       
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    11. Tybs

      Tybs Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Fall from stairs
      Demonstrating what tinnitus is would probably be more effective than just having campaigns. Set up a small audio set in front of the classroom and lock the door. "This lesson, we're gonna taste a bit of what living with tinnitus feels like", and turn on the sound. People would go crazy within five minutes. Not having the option to walk away from the sound would probably give a better impression than a bunch of old guys claiming loud sounds can make you deaf (which, to be fair, could actually be preferable above having tinnitus).

      People need to experience, not to be told. But I guess we just never learn, being human and all... let's hope Shore eventually works her things out.
       
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    12. Rb86

      Rb86 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      5/31/19
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise
      I agree with all of that except the inability to compete with profits part. Whoever figures this shit out and cures it well... their children's children's children won't have to worry about money. The statistics of this are huge, and even with proper understanding of noise risk, damage will still happen. Hell, look at cigarette smoking and lung disease. A whole generation of idiots are vaping now.
       
    13. thinlay
      Chicken

      thinlay Member

      Location:
      PARIS
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      syndrome of costen ? not sure
      I agree with you.

      But I was talking about science, not about prevention. The secondary purpose of science is to prevent it effectively.

      But I think that the profit race is to our advantage, because the commercial potential of this kind of medicine far exceeds that of hearing aids or other current market of hearing.

      Schumpeter said "creative destruction", the appearance of this new technology will lead to major economic change in the sector. Hence the interest that science is moving quickly for all these pharmaceutical companies, and therefore I do not think that the question of tinnitus is treated only by a handful of researchers and scientists.
       
    14. ChrisBoyMonkey

      ChrisBoyMonkey Member Podcast Patron

      Location:
      CA
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      U.S. Army/Field Artillery Veteran
      There are indeed motives for the companies in it for profit, but so far they have not been very successful. Neuromod is probably the first to successfully make something that actually helps.

      More companies have tried or are trying, but with little success. The academics seem more promising, such as how this device seems more promising than Neuromod's Lenire, but sadly they are moving so much slower. Hopefully this device is actually out next year though. The U of Minnesota has been working on one too, but right now their lead researcher is splitting his time with Neuromod, so there's something of a mix of both private company and academia to them.

      Still, this treatment might also be within reach. She's been saying she hopes for results of this second trial by mid 2020, and possible commercialization that same year...
       
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    15. thinlay
      Chicken

      thinlay Member

      Location:
      PARIS
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      syndrome of costen ? not sure
      Yes it is true.

      I think you have summed up well the situation with regard to the development of aid in the area of bimodal stimulation.
       
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    16. HootOwl

      HootOwl Member Benefactor

      Location:
      California
      Tinnitus Since:
      2009
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Explanation in About You
      It has been mentioned that she is seeing even better results with long term use correct? While I don’t know if this will help with my hearing distortion, I would kill to have it knock out my reactive tinnitus like it did for RedKnight in the meantime. As it stands, I’m wary of Lenire and would prefer this as a “safer” alternative (although there is no way to know about worsening until the next trial concludes).

      @linearb During your trial the longest period you used it for was only 2 weeks if I remember correctly? Or was it longer?
       
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    17. Fightthearmy

      Fightthearmy Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      work-related
      As far as I know it takes three trials at minimum to get FDA approval. Aren't they still one trial short?
       
    18. ChrisBoyMonkey

      ChrisBoyMonkey Member Podcast Patron

      Location:
      CA
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      U.S. Army/Field Artillery Veteran
      Not necessary, medical devices are different.
       
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    19. Hammers

      Hammers Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      04/19
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma: Too close to fireworks with no protection.
      Isn't that for drugs? Don't medical devices only need 2 trials?
       
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    20. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      temporarily banished from this plane of existence.
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      karma
      I am just going to reiterate again that this is the same timeline they have been tracking against since 2013: "Phase-II ongoing in 2020, commercialization hopefully that year, or within the following years".

      I am only pointing that out because in the industry I am in (web software), having a project that's been going on for 6 years and is still tracking against its original timeline is beyond impossible, and I think it's Just Dandy that any large organization can do anything with that kind of procedural accuracy.

      Even if they miss their date by a bit, the fact they've hit every milestone to date without having to slide three quarters is impressive.
       
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    21. Fabrikat

      Fabrikat Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1973
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Otosclerosis then volume then viral infection
      You're very generous to Dr. Shore. That's fine, but really if your timeline for a two phase trials process is stretched out to nearly ten years, chances are very good that your going to hit all your timelines riding that tortoise as hard as you can.

      You've got to admit, she's taken her own sweet time. Let alone if her device will actually do much for us here. I won't even go there.
       
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    22. all to gain

      all to gain Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      June 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      dirty drugs
      It's hard not to be bitter. We didn't all get tinnitus from too much noise, but some of us got it from medication which we were told was to help us and that it was safe.

      There is still little awareness even in regard to noise being too loud. I found myself in a tinnitus sufferer's nightmare a couple of weeks ago: we were bused out to the waiting 737, which had its engines already idling and we were surrounded by 2-3 other airplanes. Some idling, some taxiing and in the nearby distance one taking off. All very close. And there we were the unsuspecting passengers being subjected to massive levels of noise. And none of the passengers seemed to notice. I had my ear muffs on by this point. Didn't do much though.
       
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    23. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      temporarily banished from this plane of existence.
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      karma
      I'll admit no such thing ; in 2013 they were designing these protocols for humans based on animal models. Can you name other medical devices based on new bottom up models that have gone from hypothesis to FDA approved in a significantly faster way?

      No idea if the device will help you ; fairly certain it will help me since I used one for a month. if I had to put money on it right now my prediction would be that this helps "a significant minority of people", based on the numbers published to date. so, I think you're correct to be skeptical, the proof is in the pudding
       
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    24. GlennS

      GlennS Member Podcast Patron

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      IMHO, this is an R&D project that could be compressed down to a much shorter timeframe. So saying at onset it's gonna take 7 years when it could be done in, let's say, 3 and finishing it in 7 years is nothing to crow about. Given the small number of test subjects and limited number of trial phases I really do not think they've been working on this fulltime.
       
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    25. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      temporarily banished from this plane of existence.
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      karma
      okay, sure... what specific parts of their process do you think could have been compressed, and how? I've been tracking this effort fairly closely since 2013 and until a year or so ago was in regular contact with someone from the team. The biggest time sinks were chasing funding, which sucks but is pretty much the name of the game for stuff like this. Beyond that, I know that several people involved in this (not just Shore) have tinnitus and a strong empathetic desire to get something out.

      I'm curious where you think they have dragged their feet or whatever.
       
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    26. MRItechssuck

      MRItechssuck Member

      Location:
      USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      2002-2015, 10/17/2019-?
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud noise, MRI
      Dr. Shore has tinnitus herself? I didn’t know this.
       
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    27. ChrisBoyMonkey

      ChrisBoyMonkey Member Podcast Patron

      Location:
      CA
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      U.S. Army/Field Artillery Veteran
      Yeah, its amazing

      Have you heard anything from them recently?
      When did she say "a significant minority of people"?

      I've seen in interviews she says it's for somatic tinnitus and goes on to say that's 2/3rds of the tinnitus population, the majority.

      And where did you find the results? All I ever could find is pretty much this:

      https://news.umich.edu/specially-ti...toms-in-test-aimed-at-condition-s-root-cause/

      Last I emailed her she said the results appear cumulative, so she's likely seeing even more success now.
       
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    28. AfroSnowman
      Balanced

      AfroSnowman Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      April 16 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown, viral?
      Chris do you know what this means? Is it that the current round of testing supports the earlier trial results?
       
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    29. AfroSnowman
      Balanced

      AfroSnowman Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      April 16 2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown, viral?
      If I remember her results correctly it came in at around 80% response rate right? So if she only treats somatic patients which is ~ 66% of the Tinnitus population at a 80% success about 53% of the total Tinnitus population would get relief through her tech.

      That assumes of course that she isn't able to up her success rate and that it doesn't work on nonsomatic patients
       
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    30. ChrisBoyMonkey

      ChrisBoyMonkey Member Podcast Patron

      Location:
      CA
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      U.S. Army/Field Artillery Veteran
      Better than that. It means the results she is seeing this time are better than first time. From what she is seeing, the more the people use her device, the greater the benefit. The first trial was only 4 weeks, since this one is more, she if confirming that further use drives further plasticity (fixing the hyperactive cells).

      Neuromod imagines the same thing with their device, it's probably true of both devices. They might eventually hit an apex where tinnitus can only be diminished by so much, but no one really knows yet.
       
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