The Bionics Institute Claim They Have Found a Way of Objectively Measuring Tinnitus

Discussion in 'Research News' started by Ed209, Nov 19, 2020.

    1. 2noist

      2noist Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2015
      Maybe you should educate yourself. It's not about helping YOU on the spot, it's about helping researchers to find a cure and eventually helping you. Currently they only have access to subjective measurements which are very much prone to the placebo effect - and ruining clinical trials...

      Objectifying Tinnitus - The Bionics Institute
       
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    2. Nick47

      Nick47 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Viral/noise
      @momus, it's absolutely critical!

      1) The placebo group response in tinnitus is usually high and very subjective. By having and objective measure, the placebo response can be actually measured and would be much smaller.

      2) Companies and investors are wary of 1) and therefore not keen to develop treatments, so less R & D.

      3) Individual clinicians can accurately measure how you respond to treatments already available, that work for some people (Clonazepam, Gabapentin, Cyclobenzaprine, Amitriptyline, Deanxit, tDCS or cocktails) and monitor these treatments.

      Like blood pressure, diabetes, eye tests etc, they still have a placebo group, but with objective measurements the responses to treatment and placebo can be objectively measured.
       
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    3. Joeseph Stope
      Innocent

      Joeseph Stope Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise? infection? negative stress? other?
      I'd go one step further. An objective measure of tinnitus is like a way of "seeing" tinnitus. The cochlea, the auditory system and the brain by their nature, don't lend themselves to easy viewing. They are quite inaccessible.

      Up till this the only way of "seeing" tinnitus was by sacrificing the patient and then viewing his extracted cochlea, dissecting it and viewing the state of the inner/outer hair cells, stereocilia and synapses.

      Oh wait. I believe that Frequency Therapeutics had some method of using the discarded cochlea from cochlear implant operations...

      But all this is kind of awkward and unwieldy.

      However, this presupposes that the cause (or that the main cause?) of tinnitus lies in the cochlea. There is evidence that for some patients it might be elsewhere: the brain, the nerves, the jaw etc.

      A proof of the existence of tinnitus would also be instrumental in compensation and or disability claims, workplace safety etc.
       
    4. UKBloke
      Caffeine

      UKBloke Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      1991
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud Music / family history
      Firstly, your road metaphor is completely fallacious. Objective measurement has nothing to do with the length of the walk we're all on. If anything, it's more a metric for the sensation (or pain) that the walk along that road is causing us.

      Secondly, having an objective measurement for that sensation, flushes out the vermin (including some in academia troublingly) that try and sell cure-alls to alleviate it.

      Specifically where tinnitus is concerned, an objective measurement also holds well-funded professors and 'experts' of tinnitus to account. Absent the gauntlet of an objective method to validate their work, these are the people who've enjoyed too much of an easy ride over the years, and quite frankly an objective measurement will finally hold their feet to the fire and ensure they either shit or get off the pot.

      Does all this help us sufferers in the short term? Probably not. But that's not the point here. We have a responsibility to encourage and support the kind of parallel research that will hopefully pave the way for future generations to have access to verified treatments (if not cures). Isn't that the 'zen' thing to do?
       
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    5. Nick47

      Nick47 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Viral/noise
      @Joeseph Stope, but why would you want to see the cochlear when that's not where tinnitus is generated. In most cases hearing loss in the cochlear is what 'can' trigger tinnitus, however it's not present there. All you would achieve is seeing the physiological state of the cochlear. You would need to look into the dorsal cochlear nucleus and the ascending networks to objectively see it.

      You could look at someone's identical cochlear who didn't have tinnitus. Without the brain there is no sound perceived.
       
    6. Nick47

      Nick47 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Viral/noise
      @UKBloke, I couldn't agree more. These scumbags look to profit off the desperate and needy and this would eliminate them, or most of them. Some of the worst are in the clinics calling themselves tinnitus experts, which in most cases they are not.

      It's like someone who can not reduce a single diabetic patient's blood glucose levels calling themselves a diabetic expert. Poppy cock. Jastreboff has made a living off this absolute poppy cock.

      Also, in theory, we may see treatments such as XEN1101 or similar being trialled for tinnitus with an objective measure.

      The sooner we have these objective tests, the better. It is probably the most important research in tinnitus outside of the Shore Lab in Michigan.

      Other than some pot shots in Pimozide and SAGE-547, the short term is really defined by the above.

      Longer term, in many cases MUCH longer, equally or more promising treatments lie with hearing regeneration and invasive implants.
       
    7. DimLeb

      DimLeb Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2021
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Idiopathic Cochleopathy or Maybe Loud Music
      I think there is no researcher, doctor or any scientist in the field who has figured out where tinnitus is generated. There are theories of course, but they are not on solid ground yet. It's not pointless for the research to inspect the cochlea as well, since it does play a part in various pathologies that lead to tinnitus.

      I've read, for example, that acoustic trauma can cause abnormal hydrops in the liquid of the cochlea so you may get an atypical form of cochlear hydrops which of course can stay mysterious and unexplained for years and years. There may also be idiopathic hydrops that cause tinnitus and slight hearing loss. Or straight up Meniere's or whatever.

      The research needs to investigate the relationship between the cochlea and the brain, because it's all one big system. If it's all in the brain and they can treat tinnitus through the brain, that's great. But I believe if the ear is degenerating for any reason (from outside or inside) over time, then any tinnitus treatment would be at best temporary. Could be totally wrong, but that's my opinion.
       
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    8. Nick47

      Nick47 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Viral/noise
      @DimLeb, do you not buy into the findings from the Shore Lab or the successful trial results from those findings?

      Yes, I've also read the same as you regarding loud noise exposure causing temporary hydrops. It was an animal study, wasn't it? My point really is that sound can only be processed in the brain from the signals it gets or doesn't get. I suppose it's a case of whether we accept Shore's et. al. work as evidence or theory. You can probably tell I accept it as evidence but I didn't until a treatment based on those findings produced positive results in human clinical trials. From that point I moved from a theory with some findings to evidence.

      Now the objective fMRI is measuring the knock on activity as the tinnitus goes from the DCN to the IC to the Auditory Cortex, Thalamus, Frontal Lobe and everywhere else it goes.

      I have to say, with my tinnitus being highly sound reactive, I perceive it always as coming from my middle/inner ear, but that's just my perception and I also get the ear drum spasms and vibrations.
       
    9. UKBloke
      Caffeine

      UKBloke Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      1991
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud Music / family history
      Agreed.
       
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    10. DimLeb

      DimLeb Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2021
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Idiopathic Cochleopathy or Maybe Loud Music
      Yes, I do buy into the findings. But the treatment is very early in its course and not many conclusions can be drawn yet. Until it happens in the real world, I consider it a theory with some evidence in my mind. There is tinnitus from all kinds of causes and things get only more complicated due to absence of objective measurement and diagnosis. For example, in my case, I heard at least 3 different reasons why I got tinnitus from doctors.

      Is there only one tinnitus that can be treated with only one treatment regardless of the disease? Are there many kinds of tinnitus based on the disease (which we need to identify first) that require different treatments? Is it a mixture of both instances? Could tinnitus from Meniere's, for example, be treated with Dr. Shore's device? Until we answer questions like this, it all is very uncertain.

      Otherwise, I pray (wish really hard tbh because I don't believe in gods or so) every day that Dr. Shore's device will work for most, if not all, tinnitus there is. It would be just great if it is all the DCN and also drugs like XEN1101 etc will work as well.

      I just think the ear itself is important too, because there is also TTTS, ear spasms (I have them too to a degree), distortions, dysacusis etc which are nasty on their own.
       
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