Thiamine Pyrophosphate (TPP) Stopped My Tinnitus!

I know tinnitus is a terrible thing to deal with (I've tried dozens of things over the years with no success) but I really don't appreciate this kind of attitude. In fact, kind of makes we want to stop posting here.

TPP really DID do a lot to help me. The only reason I bothered to come on here and post this was because it helped me so much and I had hope that it would help someone else. Why else would I waste my time coming to a random forum and posting anonymously? Like I have nothing better to do in my life?

I'm not saying it WILL help people--- but I know for damn sure it helped me.

BTW, you probably WON'T be able to "walk into your local pharmacy" and get TPP. It's the activated form of B1, and has only recently become commercially available.

Sorry you're so cynical.

 

have other people tried this and did it work?

 

I'm a little hesitant to try it after reading problems with constipation... But I may start tomorrow and just eat tons of chia pudding and vegetables to help with the flow.

 

Heavy exercise also makes my T worse (but not right away, later in the day). Wondering if I have tinnitus caused by the same thing as you. I'll be honest I tried to comprehend everything you wrote but it's gonna take me a few more reads to digest. Never thought that lactic cycles would be related to tinnitus but considering my tinnitus hasn't been constant in years I've always thought something other than noise has been a factor. Also it wasn't brought on specifically by noise related issues. So tomorrow I'll take my first TPP and load up on fiber! Thank you for all your information, I love reading it.

 

Methyl B12, 2500mcg & a Super B complex, helps me.

 

Hi @Cityjohn

The feeling I have in my ear is kind of like if you'd ever been under water then came out but there was still water stuck in your ear. That kind of watery fullness--- except, mostly, without the hearing loss that you would have if your ear was filled with water. If I shift my jaw or move the muscles inside my ear (can everyone do that? I'm not sure they can, but I can) you can sort of hear the "water" move around or something. Sometimes it can be a little like cracking noises.

As far as what causes the sound, I only know the theory that I read from that other fellow EngineerLA. (I'll see if I can find that thread and post it here.) He/she theorizes that when the Eustachian tube becomes inflamed it kind of closes off and creates a vacuum. This vacuum pulls on the eardrum and causes the ringing as well as the feeling of fullness. If you read through his thread he has various ways of dealing with this. One involves, as I recall, injecting a steroid into the Eustachian tube in some tricky way through your sinuses (which you can apparently learn to do on your own.) Some people have been helped by this, as I recall, but I think some people had this make it worse. Not sure. Read his thread.

Now that I think about it, this tinnitus spectrum--- the inner ear fullness and mild discomfort--- reminds me quite a lot of when I used to get these inner ear infections called Swimmers' Ear when I was about 8-10 years old. Symptoms are quite similar--- except for the ringing. That is curious. That hadn't crossed my mind before.

This theory does structurally make some sense-- that inflammation makes a vacuum seal which pulls on the eardrum. It would also explain the feeling of fullness. The inflammation kind of explains why certain things make it worse--- not sleeping, stress, some foods.... anything that makes inflammation worse. I don't know. That's just his theory.

Let me see if I can find the link to his thread.

 

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...-—-new-protocols-and-supplements-to-try.6514/

Here's the thread on Eustachian tube inflammation. It's a long one.

 

You're welcome @mintblue!

Right now I only have a theory. TPP might help, but benfotiamine might help even better (it's a fat soluble form of thiamine). Another supplement I'm looking into (but haven't tried yet) is called Niagen-- it provides help with another step of the Krebs cycle. Increasing glutathione and magnesium might also help.

Besides the TPP (which I've actually tried) these others are just personally theoretical at this point. If I try them I'll let folks know the results.

 

@Azariah what is your dosage for TPP. I've just bought a box to try !

 

I actually heard pretty loud cracking noises. Not these couple of days though for some reason, no telling why.

I don't agree, if this were the case, very slowly and gradually blowing air up the auditory tubes would first equalize pressure and relieve tinnitus, however this is never the case.

Also something I do not agree with, as fullness implies the eardrum is being pushed out, not in, and the cochlear round window membrane, into the cochlea. This would require there to be an over-pressure in the ear.
I've checked it extensively with my ENT using a highly sensitive pressure gauge. The pressure in the middle ear equalizes without fail within a second, I noticed no difference in my tinnitus, however I do still have the feeling I need to clear my ears all the time.
Perhaps we experience fullness in the ear for both positive and negative pressure difference.

Why do you assume Eastachian tube inflammation as the primary cause and not simply cochlear inflammation?

 

Hi @Cityjohn

First of all, the things you quote about the Eustachian tube and pressure in the ear are not my ideas. I'm just requoting those ideas from that other fellow's thread.

However, I will respond as best I can:
"I don't agree, if this were the case, very slowly and gradually blowing air up the auditory tubes would first equalize pressure and relieve tinnitus, however this is never the case."

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Do you mean blowing air into the ear canal from outside your ear, or blowing air from the inside through the Eustachian tubes?


"...fullness implies the eardrum is being pushed out,"

No, it doesn't. Your experience of "fullness" could come from the eardrum being pushed out or pulled in, or something else, like the clogging or inflammation of the Eustachian tube itself. Fullness is a symptom, not a cause.

"I've checked it extensively with my ENT using a highly sensitive pressure gauge. The pressure in the middle ear equalizes without fail within a second, I noticed no difference in my tinnitus, however I do still have the feeling I need to clear my ears all the time."

This is very interesting to me. I've never heard of such a thing, and would like to know more. What exactly is the pressure gauge that your doctor is using? Where is it measuring the pressure? How does the pressure equalize-- I mean, what is the doctor doing that causes the pressure to equalize? Can you explain this in more detail please?

"Why do you assume Eastachian tube inflammation as the primary cause and not simply cochlear inflammation?"

I don't assume anything. This is that other guy's theory, as I mentioned. I was just sharing it. There may very well be different causes of this problem.

I don't think that everyone has the feeling of fullness along with their tinnitus. Maybe those that have a full feeling have the cause as being a Eustachian tube blockage or inflammation, and those that don't have another cause.

Just speculating here...

 

Blowing air into your middle ear by closing your nose and slowly releasing air from your lungs into your auditory tubes increases the middle ear pressure.
I'm not sure if everyone knows they can do this since it would completely nullify the use of the ear clearing device on EngineerLA's post. I thought it was rather strange such a device existed.

I agree, we have to pin down the sensory cause for this fullness. The question has been asked several times and as far as I can discern there are a few things than could cause fullness in the ear.
1. The tensor tympani contracting; this has happened to me before as a result of loud sounds and the feeling of fullness was exactly the same.
2. The cochlear round window membrane being pushed either in or out, this would be due to pressure difference in the middle ear; but like I mentioned I've checked this with my ENT, no pressure difference remained.
3. The endolymphatic fluid is pressure is regulated by an expansion container inside the cochlea called the endolymphatic sack, it is situated outside the bone.
4. inflammation or infection; I do not agree with these because the human body can not carry an infection for expended periods of time.

I am partial to an infection causing damage to the cochlear synapses when it enters the endolymphatic fluid, thereby causing enough damage to push the signal over the noise filtering of the nervous system leaving a patient with sudden loud audible tinnitus instead of a gradual onset. Any damage to the synapses would trigger the tensor tympani muscle to contract causing ear fullness.
Furthermore a sound can generally be felt inside the ear, I have come to think that maybe the production of that sound in my synaptic dendrites is what is activating type II afferents to cause the sensation that is similar to loud external sound.

An ENT should have an earplug with a very sensitive pressure gauge and can check the pressure in your middle ear while you clear your ears and breathe. We used it to test if my ear fullness has a cause in pressure difference by creating over-pressure in the middle ear. It didn't, my middle ear is able to equalize pressure within .4 seconds through the auditory tubes.

This will be an excellent survey question.

All this aside, the important thing is to figure out why exactly coenzymatic B1 has been so helpful. I was simply wondering why you assumed auditory tube inflammation instead of cochlear inflammation since an inflammation in the cochlea will most certainly produce tinnitus, yet the same can not be said for the auditory tube.

I hope everyone else here will get back and report their results.

 

I received my bottle and am on day 4. Hasn't done anything for my T, however I usually get restless leg at night, and it has subsided since taking this vitamin. I'll take that I guess

 

I've had the same experience!

Yes, my restless leg issues have also improved significantly since starting TPP. I didn't think that was relevant to this T discussion, so I didn't mention it. But now that a second person has had this experience, I'll confirm that I have also been helped in the same way.

I wonder what that means?

I wonder if a lot of people have both T and Restless Leg Syndrome?

Could these all be related to energy production and thiamine deficiency in some way?

Curious indeed...

 

Personally, it's quite small. I usually am very sensitive to new supplements. What I did was take the pill and crush it up into powder. Then I got a small 1 ounce dropper bottle and eye dropper. I counted out 200 drops of clean water into the bottle then put the powder in and shook it up. I estimate now that each drop is 0.08 mg. I slowly built up from one drop a day. Now I'm at about 12 drops a day, which is 0.96 mg. This is not even the USRDA for thiamine, which is 1.2 mg/d for males. (The sublingual pills have 25 mg of TPP in each pill, which is equivalent to 16 mg thiamine, which is about 13 times the USRDA.)

That's just me.

But you asked!

 

Restless leg is also caused by over-active neurons, so I believe there's a connection to T. If you look at what RLS medications, like Horizant, target, you'll see similarities to some epilepsy meds. Speaking of which, I plan to try Horizant for RLS, and am curious if it quiets down my T. I kind of believe the solution for T will be a med intended for another ailment.

 

@Azariah Let us know if you get improvement with the B1 again please...thanks!

 

I've gone through two bottles of this with no change.

 

True, however inflammation is known to be either acute or chronic. I'm not sure if there is anything in-between, such as "medium" inflammation, but it can stick around for a while, even after the primary cause has ceased to exist.

I suspect ETD from inflammation following a viral infection to be the cause of my T. I had also taken high doses of ibuprofen (400mg 3x/day for 10 days) from the direction of my GP to deal with the headaches and inflammation, so I initially suspected that ototoxicity was the cause of my T. However with one full day last week of silence and no headaches (along with one morning a few days earlier), I began to lend less credence to any ototoxicity cause, as "true" ototoxicity would presumably result in permanent damage.

 

Received my bottle from amazon last week, so far have noticed a drop in volume of t , can't really hear it during my normal daily routine.. Used to be days of 6-7/ 10 really disturbing, now not so bad . We'll see how it goes, but 1 week in, and I'm a happy camper. Can sleep without sleeping pills, though air conditioner does act like a masker. Still hear it while watching tv, but that was always the case, now just a little easier. Thanks for the tip, lets hope it's not just another thing I've tried that worked short while and then right back to the usual buzz and ringing. Thanks again

 

Vitamin supplements make my head go fuzzy - always have ... since I was a teenager - so I don't take them but, having read so much about B vitamins helping some people with T, I began eating chicken livers - fried. Totally disgusting. Did it for 3 days and had more periods of total silence than ever before.

Obviously eating liver every day isn't a great idea (previously I never ate any liver & my meat consumption was very low after years of being a vegan) because of all the crap in it so I have now reduced it to once a week. But it did make a significant difference - no doubt at all.

 

Why, because of the B vitamins? They can be taken otherwise as vitamin supplements in pills?

 

Why what? Sorry... not sure which bit wasn't clear Codaz.

Yes, of course B vitamins can be taken as supplements but I don't take them.

Yes, liver contains a great deal of vit B12 (along with vit A & others & other good & other bad stuff) - this was why I tried it... because B12 is said to lower the volume of tinnitus.

Hope that helps to clarify!

 

Interesting question to have stumbled upon! Because, as a matter of fact, I DO have restless legs syndrome. It is intermittent, though. It will appear, trouble me for a few weeks/months, then vanish for long periods.

Hmmm ... have to think about this some more. Always interesting to think about this stuff.

 

Lots of supplements, even from the better companies, contain magnesium stearate as a "flow agent." If you're taking just one pill or so, this might not be problematic. However, if you're taking a good handful of pills each day, this magnesium stearate build-up can actually cause a biofilm in the body and PREVENT absorption of nutrients from both food and even the supplements themselves!

There are some companies that manufacture pills without magnesium stearate, and also some supplements can come in capsule form and if they don't list the flow agent as an ingredient, then you have the option to open up the capsule and take the supplement without the capsule too. The purer, the better.

 

Hi Everyone
Very glad to have discovered this site
I was doing long hours into the night researching on computer when my tinnitus started in 2012. Also had a mild ear infection for first time in my life. However, when the infection cleared and tinnitus remained it was a shocker!
Saw an ear specialist who discovered 'mild damage' but did not think it was causing tinnitus.
Was prescribed SERC tabs to increase oxygen flow to the ear, but with no result.
A physio decided that it was highly likely that the cause was severe neck tension and shoulder tension, which occasionally would trap nerves etc. TMJ issues could link all together.
It makes sense that spending too long at the computer with head down at the keys - like now! - does not help and an old whiplash neck injury is probably exacerbating it all...
But as you all know, it can get so much worse at times and 'break through' suddenly.
My issue is with the pain and heat inside the ears - with no infection present - and yes, the feeling of pressure as well.
Decades ago I worked chair side in a dental surgery and the damage was probably caused from the high speed drill, but to get the tinnitus from that all these years later??

Thanks Azariah for your posts..fascinating and I think we're lucky to have our own scientist on here; and one that's prepared to be guinea pig too! I will definitely order some Source Naturals B-1. You say you ordered yours from the
Source Naturals website.. I noticed that their mg/tablet ratios differ from the 25mg. They have 16, 30, 60 but no 25mg. Which one did you us? would like to know before I order from Amazon UK.

Cityjohn; Hi. I think it a shame that you are not able to try because you can't get shipment to Netherlands. Rather than try an alternative that may not have the same molecular breakdowns as the Source Naturals, would you be able to get on Ebay? I think we would all reach for a chance to silence the dreaded T, so I am going to try it and will report back once I receive it and maybe I could put some up on my Ebay site for you? Sounds like a very convoluted approach, but then I'd go up and down and jump through hoops and it seems like all on here would!

I have downloaded a few sound apps from the App store - 'Ease' 'Tide' (which doubles as a work focus timer as well) 'Sound Sleep' which all have natural sounds which help counter the sound when meditating going off to sleep etc.

A question to all though - Has anyone noticed a worsening when watching TV? I notice it worsening considerably. After phone calls as well on hands-free walkabout phone...Wireless signals??

 

Hi, didn't realize that the 'quote' icon sent direct response as new here, but did reply to you on my opening post.

 

Hi
Have this morning found good link for cervicogenic somatic tinnitus - which I am looking into as have noticed that T is much worse and painful since my neck muscles are stiff and neck mobility is reduced. Will report back after seeing the osteopath.
www.necksolutions.com/tinnitus.html
Link also talks about B12 and zinc deficiencies increasing loudness and severity of T.
Also electromagnet field hypersensitivity..I have always noticed worsening of symptoms after using walk about phone and watching TV!
Hope you find useful.

 

Hi Everyone!

I've been away for a bit, but wanted to update everyone on how I'm doing, what my latest results are, a new experiment I've done, and answer questions.

So, here goes:

Since starting on the TPP my tinnitus has stayed about 75-90% better than before. It's almost inaudible now; my noise sensitivity has also improved DRAMATICALLY. I'm back playing the guitar again without negative consequences! Miracles! There have been a couple times I've gone off the TPP over the last six months, through negligence. (ie. I ran out and didn't plan well to get more.) Each time (except this last time) the T has returned as soon as I've stopped taking the TPP. About a week ago I ran out of TPP, so I kind of quit it cold turkey as you might say. The first day or two the T came back, but then subsided. I've now not taken TPP for maybe 4 or 5 days and the T has NOT COME BACK! That is wonderful. I think I will go back on the TPP though anyway. I just got some more.

Before this last time I quit, I was taking 1.44 mg per day. That was my daily dose, divided into three doses.

Since "activated" thiamine worked so well for me, I've now experimented with other activated forms of B vitamins. Well, two of them anyway. Here are my experiences:

Activated folate, called folinic acid. (This is NOT FOLIC ACID.) I started with a very small amount of this, like 2 milligrams per day. It did not seem to help my tinnitus, but it DEFINITELY had a very positive effect elsewhere: it improved my thinking ability DRAMATICALLY. I'm up to 6 milligrams per day divided into two doses. When I have tried to raise it higher than this I feel a little too jumpy. But this amount has definitely helped me think better. No T effects, though.

Activated B2 (riboflavin.) This is called Riboflavin-5-phosphate. It is the phosphorylated form of riboflavin like TPP is the phosphorylated form of thiamine. It's the form that is actually USED in your cells. This stuff made my T MUCH WORSE almost IMMEDIATELY and SEVERELY--- even at very low doses. Now, you know how T is--- it comes and goes. So, I made sure to try taking this stuff at least four or five separate times when the T was basically gone--- and every single time I got this result-- the T returned with a vengeance almost immediately. I have no idea why this is, or what it might mean. I plan on looking deeply into the biochemistry here, but I suspect that it might be messing with the Krebs cycle in a way that is not good for me personally.

So, here's my working theory:

T can be caused by a lot of things, including injury and inflammation, but ONE of things it can be caused by is a messed up Krebs cycle--- that is the energy producing cycle (or one of them) in all your cells. Restless Legs Syndrome is also related to the Krebs cycle, by the way. My guess (I can go into the details later) is that T is caused by a build up of citrate or citric acid because the cycle is not working properly. (I mention this because taking magnesium citrate makes my T worse.) There is good biochemistry for this-- but it's complicated. I'll try to explain it in another longer post.

My theory is that TPP is related to the part of the cycle that uses up citrate and removes it from the cycle but riboflavin is in that part of the cycle that produces citrate. Now, don't confuse things. Citrate is not BAD. It is absolutely ESSENTIAL. But it needs to be in proportion to the other things in the Krebs cycle. I talked at length about this in another post, and it's relationship to pyruvate, but there will more to come at some point...

I also suspect that it may be the case that those who do NOT get helped from TPP either: (1) Have a dysfunction at ANOTHER STEP in the Krebs cycle. That is, they actually have enough TPP naturally so the cycle is not getting gummed up at that particular step. They might be helped by other supplements at different spots in the Krebs cycle. (2) Their T is NOT caused by a Krebs cycle disorder.

There are many causes for T.

Just theories at this point.

More in the next post...

 

Hi there Nj1:

I think you have misunderstood me. I actually buy the product from the American Amazon site, not from the Source Naturals website.

Also, I believe you are looking at the WRONG PRODUCT. You want something called COENZYMATED B-1. You do NOT want just B1. The COENZYMATED B-1 does certainly come in 25 mg tablets. The American Amazon site sells it.

A user named Cheza posted the Amazon link for the product I use in the second post in this thread!