Thiamine Pyrophosphate (TPP) Stopped My Tinnitus!

1.44 mg per day, divided into three doses.

How do I get such a small dose when the pill is 16 mg of TPP per pill? I crush the pill up into powder, put the powder into a small bottle with an eyedropper, then count out 200 drops of water into the bottle. I keep this in the fridge.

 

Thanks Azariah

Was a bit confused there..It's my first time on an online forum as well, so I'm bit slow on the uptake!
I went to the osteopath yesterday and he says that they can help me with tinnitus, but T. cases always pose the biggest challenges for them in the practice!

He does believe however, that my T is caused from the downward tilt of my head and the reason it's been SO loud and constant is that I have been on crutches for six months following surgery and have needed to be looking down at the ground constantly... he was able to change the volume of the high pitch ring and ease the pressure pressing around the ears and pulling downward; albeit a split second or two.. I will get some Coenzymated B-1 to try ASAP, thank you.

 

Oh! One more recent turn of events that I forgot to mention:

I've recently (last week!) been diagnosed with severe obstructive sleep apnea. During the night I was tested--- half way through the sleep study--- they put me on a CPAP machine (a forced air breathing machine.) The next day I felt the best I had in MY ENTIRE LIFE!

Anyway, I've done some research since then, and there is some data out there that sleep apnea is a cormorbidity for tinnitus.... and that proper use of a CPAP machine can cure some people's tinnitus-- especially if the mask they use does not allow for rebreathing of expelled air. Although my reading is just beginning on this, the implication is that an elevated carbon dioxide level in the blood might affect the tinnitus--- because (guess what) it affects the energy production of your cells! Krebs cycle again...

I've heard from others with T that if they don't get enough sleep their T can become worse. I know for myself those few times in my life when I've gotten lots of sleep-- like during a flu when I've slept like 12 hours a day--- my T definitely gets BETTER.

I start this week on the CPAP machine (Tuesday.) I'll let everyone know how it goes with my remaining T.

By the way, 9-20% of women and 24-33% of men have sleep apnea according to research I've read. MOST DON'T KNOW THEY HAVE IT!

BTW untreated sleep apnea increases the risk of a lot of bad diseases, including diabetes and high blood pressure, and lower sex hormones in men. (lots of others...)

Here's an interesting website on sleep apnea and T:

http://skirsch.com/charity/medical/tinnitus.htm

 

Hi Sailboardman,

Could you list what exactly is in the Super B Complex--- or at least give a link to the product so that I can research it please?

-Azariah

 

ABSOLUTELY Path Maker!

Over the years I've had big problems with Mg stearate. I thought for many years I was allergic to supplements, but it turned out it was the Mg Stearate. I avoid it whenever I can. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find a source of TPP without this binder.

Here's the thing I've learned about the vitamin industry. It isn't regulated, really. Anyone can buy the raw ingredients, assemble them, put them in a bottle and put a label on it and sell it. Some people do this out of their living rooms! MOST companies don't actually PRODUCE the active ingredients, actually--- they BUY them from other companies and repackage them. Some of the more generic stuff like Thiamine HCl that's been around for 80 years is actually produced by companies in China.

You can search online and find sites like Ali Baba where you can buy bulk pure powder without binders. (There's a US company that does this for you called Bulk Supplements. Search Amazon.) This is what supplement companies mostly do. The only issue I have is that Chinese companies have poor quality control, some of them, and little regulatory oversight. There have been issues with high levels of lead and such in some of them. SO I've been hesitant buying directly from the producers, which you CAN do. I don't have any way of vetting the bulk product for safety.

So, I usually try to buy from a reputable American company like Source Naturals or one of the big ones. Now look, there is not much oversight of AMERICAN companies either, but they DO have a vested interest in making sure their products don't test high for lead--- because, really, the only thing these companies have going for them over others is their REPUTATIONS. And they have the money to do this sort of testing. I am almost certain they source most of their active ingredients from China too--- I haven't been able to find a single American manufacturer of active ingredients yet. (There might be some, though.) So, basically, I'm relying on the reputations and goodwill of American companies to keep me safe!

But it's better than nothing.

Now, passing laws to regulate the vitamin industry would change this. However, for other reasons, I feel this is an absolutely TERRIBLE idea! For example, if vitamins were classified as drugs, you would NEVER BE ABLE TO BUY something like TPP until it passed 10 years of study like any other drug to demonstrate safety. This usually costs over $10 million to complete, at minimum. Most supplements aren't patentable since they are natural substances, so a drug company would never spend this kind of money... and you would not legally be able to buy this supplement AT ALL! Even those that do pass such a hurdle... you'd need to get a doctor's prescription. Then you'd have to pay more like $250 a bottle rather than $11 per bottle.

It's like food. You don't need a doctor's prescription to buy an apple.

(Well, it's not exactly like that, since some apples are actually patented -- they are genetically engineered. Don't get me started on that, please!)

So it's kind of the Wild West in the vitamin industry today.

Caveat emptor.

You really don't know what you're ingesting other than believing what the supplement companies tell you.

I'm still willing to take a chance, though.

 

Azariah; I have been following this thread of yours.....(have had some questions about the Krebs cycle and lactic acid involvement also). Have you looked at information online about the glymphatic system? The thought is that astrocytes (glial cells) pull back or shrink during NREM delta sleep to allow cellular waste and debris to clear (like beta amyloid plaque in Alzheimers). It's the brain's lymphatic system. With sleep apnea that system would be impaired. I thought you might want to take a look at some of that information, and also want to encourage you to use the CPAP when you get it. Sleep apnea will not only give you dementia but also the pulmonary hypertension that happens during apneic periods causes right sided heart failure.

 

This thread is still very interesting and I've decided to bump it up with a few questions and comments that could be discussed further.

I hadn't noticed it before but the KREB cycle quite obviously seems to tie in to what I've been interested in concerning raising energy levels for mitochondrial transcription to rescue energy deficits in neurons and allow them to commit to synaptogenesis. Perhaps we've both been doing the same thing on a different case base and by mean of a different method. I have been focusing on raising energy levels and stimulating neurogenesis with light as well as providing the raw materials and increasing cellular mitochondrial count through pyroloquinoline quinone, exercise, and rest.

Consulting a textbook on this there are some quotes I would like to show and comment on.

Chemico-Biological Interactions
Volume 163, Issues 1–2, 27 October 2006, Pages 94–112
Mitochondrial Toxicity.
(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0009279706000998)

Vitamin B1 is necessary for mitochondrial transcription.

One of LLLT's primary mechanisms of actions is by increasing ROS. This paper show it does so http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23281261 and this manuscript shows the mechanisms of LLLT; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3288797/, I've quoted a piece below.

The KREBS cycle is a necessary precursors to the efficacy of the electron respiration chain, as shown below, which in turn produces a completely useless supply of ATP unless there is abundant thiamine present.



Now it seems to me that there is quite an overlap between your KREBS cycle problem and my wish to achieve neurogenesis through LT. More people here on the forum have posted that vitamin B has been an integral part of their succes. Could it be possible that B1 has helped you because it provided the energy deficit needed to cover for neurogenesis?

@Azariah what do you think of this?

 

Don't know if this would relate chemically, but I have taken care of many patients with lactic acidosis. Of course most of those were septic, not simply making ATP anaerobically. None complained of tinnitus. However.....it is interesting that Fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndromes are thought to involve mitochondrial dysfunction. Anaerobic cellular respiration byproducts like lactic acid might be r/t pain and fatigue.....maybe tinnitus. Anyway, the coenzymated B-1 is worth a try and I will do that.
CityJohn; I don't know if you are interested or if you think this relates but your post encouraged me to look up PQQ. A while back I looked at how Tylenol contributes to tinnitus. I found that Tylenol depletes glutathione which protects the cochlea (this info is on ncbi.nlm.nih and in the American Journal of Epidemiology).....it's neuroprotective. The link I thought you might be interested in is that PQQ is recycled by glutathione after reducing oxidants.
One of the precursers for us to make glutathione is cysteine. In the hospital where I work we used to give Mucomyst (NAC) to protect kidneys prior to dye studies. So maybe it works by: cysteine=>glutathione and PQQ=neuroprotection?

 

I didn't know anything about a Krebs Cycle, so I looked it up and found this...

http://www.chemistrylearning.com/krebs-cycle/

 

There is a post on PQQ with many references here; https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/pqq-pyrroloquinoline-quinone-and-neurogenesis.16086/

 

Back to the original TPP theory: chronic alcoholics are always thiamine deficient. They always get a "banana bag" of B vites high in thiamin on admission to prevent withdrawl seizures. I would think they would have T.

 

My doc was against me taking B12 as too much of it isn't pretty well for your body. But I do remember that it did something yeah.

 

Already found a location where we can order?

 

What I read is that too much B12 can actually increase cholesterol levels! So it's a balancing act ...

 

Any updates on b1 anyone?

 

Better late than never.. Maybe you already found them, but still wanted to share..

http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Coenzymated-B-1-60-Tablets/1077

Ships to NL, just ordered them.

 

Also just ordered some, just for shits and giggles.

 

Is 25mg safe to take since @Azariah is taking much much less?

 

Any update?

 

Can anyone update us?

 

Just found this website , atleast there is some hope . I've had tinnitus for 35 years .It was moderate , but recently got worse, it jumped to a 8-9 for no good reason . And there it has been, which is really bothersome . I appreciate all the input from you good people , as I will try B1 [TPP ] . I tried Lipo-Flavinoid Plus , which is a combination of 5 of the B -vitamins ,Calcium, Vitamin C, Panothenic acid, in a regimen of 6 tablets per day for 30 days , followed by 2 a day for 30 days . The 2nd day I noticed a definite drop , to about 1/3rd of the noise , but it was short lived [2 days ] and that was it , I'm back up to original 8-9 loudness of noise .I will complete the regimen , but it doesn't look good . In the meantime I try to keep distracted from the noise . And order that TPP. I will post results .

Thanks for listening .

 

Hi Everyone!

Sorry I went kind of AWOL for a minute. I'm a college professor. As soon as September comes, I'm swamped with work! This is a tough time of the year for me work-wise.

I will address CityJohn's questions as soon as I am able. I do have some ideas about his questions.

First of all, I've had several PMs asking me for updates as to how I'm doing and what my current regimen is. Since my original post, I've also tried some other things and done quite a bit more research. I have some thoughts about all of this.

My Tinnitus is about 85-90% better and remains that way. I had bilateral tinnitus. My right ear is basically T free. My left ear is about 15% of what it used to be--- still noticeable, but not debilitating. My current regimen is 1.44 mg three times a day of TPP, for a total daily dose of 4.32 mg. Another improvement I've noticed is that my hyperacusis is quite improved. In the past, going to a concert, every when wearing earplugs, would cause the T to increase for weeks.

I play guitar. I did something really stupid about a month ago. I went out to play music at this jazz club. I did wear earplugs while I was sitting in the audience. When I got on stage, though, I took them out because I couldn't hear the players. I thought "oh, my ears are better now, I don't need to be so cautious." Well, wrong! After I got home my ears were ringing like hell! I was in a panic. It did take about a week or so, but the T more or less disappeared again, with just a residual 15% in my left ear for my transgression. Yes, I'm mad at myself for doing something so stupid as to play electrified loud music without hearing protection. However, I am also encouraged that the noise induced T made an almost complete recovery within 3-5 days. In the past, that would have gone on for months, maybe years.

Now, two other things have happened recently that I'd like to report.

After my great experience with activated B1, I decided to try some other activated Bs to see what would happen. I started with activated B2 (Riboflavin 5 Phosphate aka R5P). I did the same bit as I did with TPP. I started out with a very low dose, maybe 0.16 mg. Within 15 minutes of taking this very small dose of R5P my tinnitus went kind of crazy! It got much worse. I didn't take any more, and within a day or two the T resolved again. I tried again--- 1 drop of R5P--- and an immediate worsening of the T. I tried a third time with the same result. So, for whatever reason, activated riboflavin makes my T WORSE.

I then tried supplemental glycine-- which is supposed to be a relaxing neurotransmitter. The glycine did help with anxiety, BUT within 15 minutes of taking a VERY small dose 0.06 g, the T got worse. I tried this experiment three separate times with the same result. Each time the T would immediately get worse.

Then I came upon some research about T connection with the GABA system in the brain. Basically, GABA deficiency may be at the root of T. The enzyme which makes GABA in the brain is pyridoxal-5-phosphate dependent (activated B6). That is my next adventure: I'm going to try taking activated B6 next with the hope of boosting brain GABA levels.

Given this working theory, I have some ideas why both activated B2 and glycine made T worse--- it has to do wit h GABA production. (I would like to outline my theory in more detail-- and will--- but it's too late right now and I'm too tired. But more to come!) I'm still trying to find a connection between TPP and GABA.

Are there any other updates from others here who are trying TPP?

-Azariah

 

Oh, one other thing I stumbled on: there are certain people (children) who have a certain type of uncontrolled seizures that can only be treated by P5P. Another working theory is that T, while not a seizure per se, is kind of like a mini seizure (overactivation) and that that is a reason P5P may work as well on T.

 

That approach seems very interesting and less dangerous than taking a benzo.. I would be very interested about your progress in this! Thank you for your detailed posts, they are really helpful!

 

Fascinating! Thanks for turning me on to this subject! I have a feeling this line of research will prove fruitful to me--- alcohol and tinnitus ARE related in a very interesting way. I had no idea!

From what I've read, alcoholics DO have higher rates of T--- but only in the elderly, as far as I could tell. One article I read said that in alcoholics over the age of 65, 20% of them have tinnitus.

However, there is also this: I also read that going through alcohol withdrawal can initiate tinnitus.

My understanding is that the reason that alcoholics get a banana bag of b vitamins is not because of the alcohol per se, but because many severe alcoholics don't actually eat much FOOD, and then become B deficient.

I read this very interesting article recently which tested a drug use for those going through alcohol withdrawal. In this case, those with tinnitus (who were NOT alcoholics) took the alcohol withdrawal drug Campral for 30 days. 87% of them got some relief from their tinnitus. 13% were cured of the tinnitus, while 48% had an improvement more than 50%. Here's the link:

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20050922/alcoholism-drug-may-ease-ringing-in-ears

Then there is this from the Scripps Research Institute:

"Scientists used to think of alcohol as a membrane disruptor with a generalized effect all over the brain, as the small molecule can freely diffuse across the blood–brain barrier. They now know that there are particular cells in the brain that alcohol targets by binding certain hydrophobic pockets on their surface receptors. The gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) receptor is one of these. "Alcohol is an indirect GABA agonist," says Koob.

GABA is the major inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brain, and GABA-like drugs are used to suppress spasms. Alcohol is believed to mimic GABA's effect in the brain, binding to GABA receptors and inhibiting neuronal signaling.

Alcohol also inhibits the major excitatory neurotransmitter, glutamate, particularly at the N-methyl-d-aspartate (NMDA) glutamate receptor. And it releases other inhibitors, such as dopamine and serotonin."

https://www.scripps.edu/newsandviews/e_20020225/koob2.html

That is, alcohol affects GABA receptors in the brain. P5P (activated B6) is necessary to make GABA in the brain. There is a connection here.

SUMMARY OF WHAT I'VE LEARNED FROM THIS QUICK RESEARCH

(1) Alcohol withdrawal initiates tinnitus. Alcohol binds to GABA receptors in the brain. This means that alcohol causes your brain to act like it has extra GABA. This is partly why alcohol relaxes you. However, when you are a chronic alcohol abuser, I suspect your body slows down its own GABA production, though it still produces some (because the GABA receptors are chronically activated anyway with alcohol.) This is fine as long as you continue to consume alcohol. However, as soon as you stop alcohol, and your body hasn't started producing its own GABA yet, you have a severe GABA deficiency in the brain. Tinnitus is one consequence. Feeling very nervous and jumpy is another--- the shakes.

(2) Chronic alcohol consumption initiates tinnitus. I could only find increased T in elderly patients--- and only 20% of them. Here is my theory: if you have chronically consumed alcohol for many years, you may be 5P5 or TPP deficient. You body may produce NO GABA in this situation, so even alcohol might not be enough to activate GABA receptors.

I wonder if consuming small amounts of alcohol IMPROVE people's tinnitus ---- briefly?

Does anyone have any experience with this? (I don't consume alcohol myself, and don't plan on starting myself just now.)

My best guess would be that alcohol would help T while you are drinking it, but after the alcohol leaves your system the T might be worse.

What do people think?

 

One other thing I just read in another thread here. Another member said CBD oil helped his tinnitus. I looked into this.

CBD is a chemical component of marijuana. THC is the chemical that has psychoactive properties. CBD is another chemical that doesn't. What it DOES help with is terrible seizures. Google it. You'll see.

Anyway, I did some research on this.

Apparently CBD is a GABA re-uptake inhibitor.

For those who don't know what this means, I'll explain.

There are GABA releasing nerve cells in the brain. After the GABA is released, it travels across a short distance (gap) between two nerve cells. It attaches to the target cell--- and the target cell responds in some way (no need to go into details here.) After it's done its job, the GABA is re-absorbed into the cell (I don't recall which--- either the GABA releasing cell or the target cell.) Anyway, the GABA is reabsorbed so the gap between the cells is cleared now in preparation for another GABA firing sometime later. Is that clear?

So, if my working theory is true, the main issue with T is that not enough GABA is released into the gap. You can improve this in several ways: by either giving more of the precursors of GABA (5P5), OR by stopping the reuptake of GABA.

If you PREVENT the cells from cleaning up the GABA in the gap, then your brain now experiences MORE GABA in the gap, and a low GABA situation is fixed. T improves. Seizures improve.

So the fact that this fellow was helped by CBD oil makes sense to me!

http://herb.co/2016/07/26/everything-you-need-to-know-about-cbd/

 

I read for sure that this is the case for some people. I also feel that one beer makes it actually better.

I also heard of Campral, but have not tried it so far. I think they did another trial where the results were way more negative, If I recall correctly. However I think that there is a link between alcohol and T as well. Just ordered activated B6 as well, I'm curious to see if it has any effect.

I am currently also taking CBD oil, but cannot say so far if it really does help me. But your theory seems very logical to me.

 

For anyone that wants to make the protocol easier -

200 drops = 10-12 mL (approximately)

I'm too lazy (computer science did this to me) to measure out 200 drops manually. Hopefully this saves someone an hour of counting out 200 drops of water.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the only reason @Azariah is using such a small dosage is because of their sensitivity to supplements. I think for most of us we won't necessarily have to be as precise as long as we keep the dosage low. But I haven't tried this yet, so I'm going to find out (just got my bottle).

Another useful measurement - 1 teaspoon liquid = 5 mL of liquid. So that should make this pretty easy to pull off for anyone.

 

Everything Champ said here is true. My "protocol" is only the one I stumbled upon because I know I am so sensitive to supplements.

I would encourage people to alter it according to their own experiences.

The one thing I might suggest, though, is to keep the dosing at three times a day. TPP is water soluble, so keeping a constant stream of the stuff seems logical--- rather than taking it once a day.

But again, I have no idea!

(...but I do know, through experience, that counting out 200 drops of water takes about 90 seconds, not two hours! Even so, I encourage you to be lazy if by doing so you're more likely to stick with the protocol for a little while...)

 

Hahaha yeah I was being a bit hyperbolic with the "it'll take an hour" rhetoric

I've already started doing this as-of yesterday, using your protocol. It certainly doesn't seem like it could hurt, and if my tinnitus is similar to yours at all then I might get some relief. I'll keep you and everyone else posted.