Agnostics “R” Us...

[Tanni]

@Tanni, I appreciate your openness. You seem to be able to step outside your preconceptions rather well and not presume to much about others.
Re:

The Bible clearly contains some of the worst examples of humanity I expose myself to or allow my kids to read about. Take king David, for example, had I written this book, he would certainly have been disqualified. Granted no one is perfect, but lots of people are more moral-acting than him. I would have cleaned up and clarified a lot of other stuff too.

I see the Bible teaching morality through many other passages. The amoral parts complicate that, but I don't see that they disqualify it. The amoral parts are just the reality of humanity and are part of revealing the teaching of God's patience and grace, but also his judgement.

I think the extended discussion of the definitions of atheist and agnostic are interesting, and if I were to adopt the more subtle, slippery, squirrel-y ones, I would say I am an agnostic Christian, but just to talk straight, I would say I am a Christian who doesn't' know everything.

Thanks Jay, it's interesting to hear your perspective.

I felt from my readings of the Bible that a lot of the amorality came from God himself -- for instance, punishing the innocent daughters of 'offenders' in the most heinous ways possible. The punishment for a cheating man (being cast out) is very different for a cheating woman (stoned to death).

For me, it's really difficult to reconcile the kind, benevolent, all knowing God with the one written about in the Bible who bestows the most cruel and unfair punishments for what we would consider to be minor transgressions. That's why I tend to try to separate the two, and assume the Bible is man made and God himself -- if he exists -- must be very different.

I think a lot of the issues from the Old Testament were corrected in the New Testament, when Jesus is introduced and is a lot more like how we would expect a Christian to be today.

I would consider myself an atheist who doesn't know everything

 

[Jazzer]

 

[Christiaan]

It is a peculiarity of Britain that funnily enough I was debating whether to include in my original post to you. If you ask British people to fill out a form on religion, most will identify as 'Church of England'. Very few would be happy to identify as 'Atheist'. However, most of these people will not attend church, read the Bible, pray, or incorporate God into their daily lives in any way.

I think it is very much a generational thing -- being 'Church of England' represents part of the British identity rather than an actual religious conviction. Being 'Athiest' doesn't feel as British. Saying you believe in God is the standard and correct answer for British people of certain generations.

Also, Britain includes Northern Ireland, who are a very religious country -- completely different to England in this respect.

That's an interesting take about NI and the generation issue @Tanni. For someone who is an atheist, you sure do know a lot about Christianity than most Christian people I come across. + You have given me more insight about GB's society than most books that I've read when I studied English literature. Have you thought about a teaching career?

We do not have something like Northern Ireland with all the infighting between Protestants and Catholics, which is ludicrous just to think about it. However, we had a sort of segregated society until the 1960's. We basically had a society in which socialists, liberals, Protestants and Catholics had each their own schools, barber, butcher, hospitals, you name it. It all slowly but surely collapsed when the more free spirited baby boomers were fed up with all that dogmatism, which also led to a slow decay of religious influence in everyday life.

The only remnant of the segregation is a small trip from the North-East to the South-West, which is called the Bible Belt. It's a place where most people are member of the Dutch Reformed Church and live an orthodox Protestant lifestyle; no tv, no work on Sunday, women are expected to stay home for the children while the men have to work. And let's not begin about abortion and homosexuality. But this religious group is also slowly changing, as their political party co-opted women quite recently (they were forced by the European Union) and some women go to higher education for a degree. No, Christian revival will not happen any time soon around here

 

[Jazzer]

 

[Lane]

I find religious people can be very intolerant

I know plenty of people who say they are Christian but they are not. I do not think they know what it means to be Christian. Many of them do not even know what the Gospel is, and can't explain it. I think they like to keep one foot in, and one foot out.

you sure do know a lot about Christianity than most Christian people I come across.

My observations are that probably 90%+ of all Christians have only a relatively superficial understanding of their own religion. It sometimes seems that the less they know, the more intolerant they are of anything other than what they only superfically believe. I've also noticed that it's not unusual for non-Christians to have a much better understanding of Christianity than many Christians.

 

[Jazzer]

My observations are that probably 90%+ of all Christians have only a relatively superficial understanding of their own religion. It sometimes seems that the less they know, the more intolerant they are of anything other than what they only superfically believe. I've also noticed that it's not unusual for non-Christians to have a much better understanding of Christianity than many Christians.

I agree.
I think the reason is that many Christians have accepted their faith because it is expedient to do so.
(Better be safe than sorry.)

Whereas non believers have very often taken the trouble to examine the historicity, the possibility that 'there may be something in all this,' before finally coming to the conclusion that the whole concept of God, the creator, and Jesus, the messiah and miracle worker, lacks verisimilitude - the ring of truth.

 

[Tanni]

That's an interesting take about NI and the generation issue @Tanni. For someone who is an atheist, you sure do know a lot about Christianity than most Christian people I come across. + You have given me more insight about GB's society than most books that I've read when I studied English literature. Have you thought about a teaching career?

You are so sweet, thank you! It's you who needs to go into teaching -- or politics. Your knowledge of international affairs is so impressive.

I would not claim to know more about Christianity than a Christian, but I have read the Bible. I think it's important to -- it's one of the most important books in the world.

It's interesting to hear about Dutch society, and the differences between our countries. We see the Netherlands as a very liberal country here of course. I've been to Amsterdam many times (not for weed or red light district purposes I promise! ) and it is so beautiful and cultural. I often wonder if the Dutch mind about the tourists coming to their country just to take advantage of weed/prostitution, when so much of the art and history is unexplored.

 

[Lilah]

My observations are that probably 90%+ of all Christians have only a relatively superficial understanding of their own religion. It sometimes seems that the less they know, the more intolerant they are of anything other than what they only superfically believe. I've also noticed that it's not unusual for non-Christians to have a much better understanding of Christianity than many Christians.

It is a very difficult task to be a Christian, and there are many bad examples of Christians (like slaveowners, etc.). I'm not sure if this is what you mean when you say a lot of Christians do not know much about Christianity. Most Christians who are in fact Christians (even if they are bad examples) know the Gospel and the teachings of Jesus, based on my observations, so I'm not sure where you are getting the 90% from. Atheists may very well know the Bible, but to them it is foolishness, so they fail to understand the deeper meaning that is acheived only through the help of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Lilah]

I think the reason is that many Christians have accepted their faith because it is expedient to do so.
(Better be safe than sorry.)

I don't think these people are Christians and they do not have belief (they do not have relationship with Jesus). It is very difficult for Christians to just leave/divorce Jesus, lol.

 

[Contrast]

Okay from what I understand some people have extremely difficult times dropping faith. This seems to be the case for lots of ex christians and ex muslims. It was never the case for me in a Christian house but I can understand how someone can feel angry for being mislead in a cult. However I easily left Christianity when it didn't make since despite the threats of going to hell forever.

 

[Jazzer]

Okay from what I understand some people have extremely difficult times dropping faith. This seems to be the case for lots of ex christians and ex muslims. It was never the case for me in a Christian house but I can understand how someone can feel angry for being mislead in a cult. However I easily left Christianity when it didn't make since despite the threats of going to hell forever.

Me too brother.
For me - the impossibility of achieving any contact clinched it.
All that was left was a book, of dubious origin, and a church full of those who had swallowed it.
Interaction has never been on the cards, as far as I can see.

 

[Jazzer]

 

[Steph1710]

I agree.
I think the reason is that many Christians have accepted their faith because it is expedient to do so.
(Better be safe than sorry.)

Whereas non believers have very often taken the trouble to examine the historicity, the possibility that 'there may be something in all this,' before finally coming to the conclusion that the whole concept of God, the creator, and Jesus, the messiah and miracle worker, lacks verisimilitude - the ring of truth.

I absolutely 100% agree with your statement Jazzer.

My situation is interesting - I'm a historian of sorts, and an Atheist. However, my partner and his family are strict Baptists.

What amazes me is their general lack of historical knowledge and human events throughout history - and, their unwillingness to learn.

For example, I asked if they knew how, why, and when Christianity was introduced into western Europe?

It turns out they didn't know; which maybe I shouldn't have, but I found surprising.

I then posed the question - 'surely to understand the bible, you must understand the history of its existence?'

They responded - 'The Bible is the truth, and everything else doesn't matter.'

I don't know why; perhaps it's the historian in me, but I found their statement incredibly disturbing.

 

[Henry Orlando FL]

I absolutely 100% agree with your statement Jazzer.

My situation is interesting - I'm a historian of sorts, and an Atheist. However, my partner and his family are strict Baptists.

What amazes me is their general lack of historical knowledge and human events throughout history - and, their unwillingness to learn.

For example, I asked if they knew how, why, and when Christianity was introduced into western Europe?

It turns out they didn't know; which maybe I shouldn't have, but I found surprising.

I then posed the question - 'surely to understand the bible, you must understand the history of its existence?'

They responded - 'The Bible is the truth, and everything else doesn't matter.'

I don't know why; perhaps it's the historian in me, but I found their statement incredibly disturbing.

Hi Steph,

Why some people find it hard to leave their belief in some religion for agnosticism or atheism is complicated and somewhat individualized. That said we do know some of the reasons for people to cling to religion. They include the following from my readings:

· Neuroscience finds while there is likely no one spot (popularly called the "God Spot") in the brain where belief in God occurs there is evidence that certain areas of the brain have to do with a sense of awe, transcendence and belonging. Thus if one is born with certain brain structures that facilitate these feelings one is much more likely to be attracted to and stay attached to a religion.


· Developmental psychologists report that the fundamental personality traits are laid down by age 3 to 6. Thus if one is born into a religious environment and nurtured into a religion one will be much more likely to stay with that religion over time and be very resistant to leaving. There are very powerful "tethers" if you will that hold one in place emotionally and cognitively.


· We also know that many religious leaders are very skilled at group psychology and mass hypnosis (hypnosis involves creating focused attention reduced peripheral awareness, and enhanced capacity to respond to suggestions) which keeps people "locked-in".


· Psychologists and linguists have studied how all human beings have cognitive biases and cognitive distortions that keep human beings from actually understanding and believing facts. These cognitive biases/distortions even cause human beings to "double down" on their beliefs when they are confronted with the facts. Here is a list of the common cognitive biases and cognitive distortions here:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias

After all, there are still some people who insist that the world is flat! They have a conference every year. Others believe that the moon landing in 1969 was a hoax. In the USA, from a Gallup Poll, 38 percent of US adults still believe in creationism (Creationism defined as the belief that God created humans in their present form within the last 10,000 years). The good news is that is at an all-time low currently.

· Socio-cultural factors not only help create the environment we are born into but they also sustain the cognitive bias and distortions. Some religions or denominations of some religions "shun" former members. In the extreme, one can be killed for leaving the religion. Even if there is no formal shunning, there is informal shunning as one carries a stigma in society and in the family.

Did I miss something? My two cents.

 

[Jazzer]

I absolutely 100% agree with your statement Jazzer.

My situation is interesting - I'm a historian of sorts, and an Atheist. However, my partner and his family are strict Baptists.

What amazes me is their general lack of historical knowledge and human events throughout history - and, their unwillingness to learn.

For example, I asked if they knew how, why, and when Christianity was introduced into western Europe?

It turns out they didn't know; which maybe I shouldn't have, but I found surprising.

I then posed the question - 'surely to understand the bible, you must understand the history of its existence?'

They responded - 'The Bible is the truth, and everything else doesn't matter.'

I don't know why; perhaps it's the historian in me, but I found their statement incredibly disturbing.

Steph I'm with you all the way.
I believe Christians feel threatened by our ability to ultimately dismiss their faith.
Strange.
Their faith in no way threatens me.
Very interesting scenario.

Must go now. Jobs to do. My missus is not too well.
Must talk about this again.
Best
Dave x

 

[Jazzer]

Hi Steph,

Why some people find it hard to leave their belief in some religion for agnosticism or atheism is complicated and somewhat individualized. That said we do know some of the reasons for people to cling to religion. They include the following from my readings:

· Neuroscience finds while there is likely no one spot (popularly called the "God Spot") in the brain where belief in God occurs there is evidence that certain areas of the brain have to do with a sense of awe, transcendence and belonging. Thus if one is born with certain brain structures that facilitate these feelings one is much more likely to be attracted to and stay attached to a religion.


· Developmental psychologists report that the fundamental personality traits are laid down by age 3 to 6. Thus if one is born into a religious environment and nurtured into a religion one will be much more likely to stay with that religion over time and be very resistant to leaving. There are very powerful "tethers" if you will that hold one in place emotionally and cognitively.


· We also know that many religious leaders are very skilled at group psychology and mass hypnosis (hypnosis involves creating focused attention reduced peripheral awareness, and enhanced capacity to respond to suggestions) which keeps people "locked-in".


· Psychologists and linguists have studied how all human beings have cognitive biases and cognitive distortions that keep human beings from actually understanding and believing facts. These cognitive biases/distortions even cause human beings to "double down" on their beliefs when they are confronted with the facts. Here is a list of the common cognitive biases and cognitive distortions here:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias

After all, there are still some people who insist that the world is flat! They have a conference every year. Others believe that the moon landing in 1969 was a hoax. In the USA, from a Gallup Poll, 38 percent of US adults still believe in creationism (Creationism defined as the belief that God created humans in their present form within the last 10,000 years). The good news is that is at an all-time low currently.

· Socio-cultural factors not only help create the environment we are born into but they also sustain the cognitive bias and distortions. Some religions or denominations of some religions "shun" former members. In the extreme, one can be killed for leaving the religion. Even if there is no formal shunning, there is informal shunning as one carries a stigma in society and in the family.

Did I miss something? My two cents.

Henry - gotta tell you.
That was at least three cents........x

 

[Steph1710]

@Jazzer I hope your dear partner feel/becomes better soon.

Sending healing vibes

Steph <3

 

[Steph1710]

Neuroscience finds while there is likely no one spot (popularly called the "God Spot") in the brain where belief in God occurs there is evidence that certain areas of the brain have to do with a sense of awe, transcendence and belonging. Thus if one is born with certain brain structures that facilitate these feelings one is much more likely to be attracted to and stay attached to a religion.

I'll reply properly when I have more time - but this is absolutely fascinating.

Steph

 

[Jazzer]

@Henry Orlando FL
- Hi Henry.
Doubt if I ever had a god spot.
If I did - I probably 'picked it' in me sleep.

 

[Christiaan]

My observations are that probably 90%+ of all Christians have only a relatively superficial understanding of their own religion. It sometimes seems that the less they know, the more intolerant they are of anything other than what they only superfically believe. I've also noticed that it's not unusual for non-Christians to have a much better understanding of Christianity than many Christians.

@Lane It may be the case that a lack of understanding in something also contributes to intolerance others who do not share your beliefs or (political) ideology. Interestingly, in my experience, the same can be said of people who almost have an academic interest in their religion/ideology. I can still remember a discussion that I had with a sociologist who happened to be a Salafist (a stride within the Islam) years ago. He could literally cite every proverb on each page of the Koran and Sunnah books. What really boggled me, is that he said that one should regard the writings in these books as self-evident, as they came from God himself, and therefore there's no need for critical reasoning and reflection, as God knows better than we do what's good for us. For an academic like himself, it sure is interesting to do research according to a set of standards (e.g. logical, critical thinking & reflection), but that he could easily through it out the window when it concerns his faith.

 

[Christiaan]

You are so sweet, thank you! It's you who needs to go into teaching -- or politics. Your knowledge of international affairs is so impressive.

I would not claim to know more about Christianity than a Christian, but I have read the Bible. I think it's important to -- it's one of the most important books in the world.

It's interesting to hear about Dutch society, and the differences between our countries. We see the Netherlands as a very liberal country here of course. I've been to Amsterdam many times (not for weed or red light district purposes I promise! ) and it is so beautiful and cultural. I often wonder if the Dutch mind about the tourists coming to their country just to take advantage of weed/prostitution, when so much of the art and history is unexplored.

Well, now that you mention it Nah, most English tourists who come here are pretty fly. We sometimes have problems with some tourists (especially youngsters) who go to Amsterdam for some good old entertainment without parental provision or when there's an international football match. But most guys are pretty friendly and I always enjoy talking to them when I'm in the local Irish pub (Where are the British? we only have an American and an Irish pub around here, as far as I know). Aside from Amsterdam, The Hague is also worth a visit. We have a beach, a historical city centre and weirdly enough a lot of seagulls. So if you want to visit the place any time soon, you're more than welcome. Anyway, sorry for going a bit off-topic on this thread guys

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

I absolutely 100% agree with your statement Jazzer.

My situation is interesting - I'm a historian of sorts, and an Atheist. However, my partner and his family are strict Baptists.

What amazes me is their general lack of historical knowledge and human events throughout history - and, their unwillingness to learn.

For example, I asked if they knew how, why, and when Christianity was introduced into western Europe?

It turns out they didn't know; which maybe I shouldn't have, but I found surprising.

I then posed the question - 'surely to understand the bible, you must understand the history of its existence?'

They responded - 'The Bible is the truth, and everything else doesn't matter.'

I don't know why; perhaps it's the historian in me, but I found their statement incredibly disturbing.

Well Baptists are hard believers in the bible is the truth. If you have attended a Baptist sermon you would see how those preachers hammer the gospel truth down their throats. I attended one years ago only because a friend asked me to. Let me tell you if you didn't believe when you entered you sure as hell took a different look at religion and the Baptist way of interpreting it.

I left saying nothing to the friend because what I had witnessed wasn't religion.

 

[Steph1710]

Developmental psychologists report that the fundamental personality traits are laid down by age 3 to 6. Thus if one is born into a religious environment and nurtured into a religion one will be much more likely to stay with that religion over time and be very resistant to leaving.

Yes this is something I have been very aware of for a number of years. Luckily my partner, with the help of myself, and very, many, museum trips, has finally come round to the idea that perhaps things are different to the way he has always been told/conditioned to believe.

However, I know that because he was brought up to believe a certain way, that his belief can still readily resurface at the drop of a hat.

So as you said, resistance to leave is incredibly strong.

These cognitive biases/distortions even cause human beings to "double down" on their beliefs when they are confronted with the facts. Here is a list of the common cognitive biases and cognitive distortions here:

This is interesting to me.

After all, there are still some people who insist that the world is flat!

I watched a programme not so long ago which documented 'flat earthers' and their bazaar meetings. Interestingly enough, I watched it with my partner's family - of which two are preachers, who had the audacity to mock flat earthers for
believing in something so insane! Irony?

Did I miss something? My two cents.

As @Jazzer said - at least three cents worth

It was all very insightful. Thank you.

Steph

 

[Henry Orlando FL]

Yes this is something I have been very aware of for a number of years. Luckily my partner, with the help of myself, and very, many, museum trips, has finally come round to the idea that perhaps things are different to the way he has always been told/conditioned to believe.

However, I know that because he was brought up to believe a certain way, that his belief can still readily resurface at the drop of a hat.

So as you said, resistance to leave is incredibly strong.

This is interesting to me.

I watched a programme not so long ago which documented 'flat earthers' and their bazaar meetings. Interestingly enough, I watched it with my partner's family - of which two are preachers, who had the audacity to mock flat earthers for
believing in something so insane! Irony?


As @Jazzer said - at least three cents worth

It was all very insightful. Thank you.

Steph

Yes this is something I have been very aware of for a number of years. Luckily my partner, with the help of myself, and very, many, museum trips, has finally come round to the idea that perhaps things are different to the way he has always been told/conditioned to believe.

However, I know that because he was brought up to believe a certain way, that his belief can still readily resurface at the drop of a hat.

So as you said, resistance to leave is incredibly strong.

This is interesting to me.

I watched a programme not so long ago which documented 'flat earthers' and their bazaar meetings. Interestingly enough, I watched it with my partner's family - of which two are preachers, who had the audacity to mock flat earthers for
believing in something so insane! Irony?


As @Jazzer said - at least three cents worth

It was all very insightful. Thank you.

Steph

Your welcome Steph. I enjoyed putting it together. I would hope it leads to an element of compassion for those who believe in religions by those who might read it. All of us humans have these biases that drive our thoughts, beliefs and behavior. Seems to be a given just in being human.

Glad you have allowed your partner to find their own way to new beliefs as opposed to going the facts and convincing route that research shows do not work well and is even counterproductive.

Indeed quite an irony with the family/preachers ;-). Human beings are an interesting lot!

 

[Jazzer]

Time for a couple ot these:

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

A young couple were in a serious accident and wound up at the pearly gates in front of St. Peter.

"Can we be married in heaven asked the young man.
"I don't know we have never had that request before, I will have to ask." So off he goes and 2 months pass the young couple still waiting, finally after another month he returned. In the meantime the young couple thought what if this doesn't work out can we get a divorce? When St. Peter returned he told the couple that yes they could get married in heaven. The couple then asked if things didn't work out could they get a divorce in heaven.

"OH COME ON NOW" hollered st. Peter, "it took me three months up here to find a priest, now you want me to find a lawyer!"

 

[Jazzer]

 

[Jazzer]

 

[Contrast]

View attachment 40531

I can't relate too this at all outside of young child hood being scared of hell.

 

[Jazzer]