Barbiturates for Tinnitus

Discussion in 'Treatments' started by undecided, Jul 9, 2016.

    1. Dutchy
      Not worthy

      Dutchy Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Neuronmodulation suggests noise induced?
      From what I can find you're not allowed to have them without a doctor prescription.

      "The Misuse of Drugs Act classes barbiturates as class B drugs, which means they can be bought in accordance with a doctor’s prescription, but any other form of possession or supply counts as an offence. The maximum penalty a person can receive for any unauthorised possession is 5 years in prison and a fine for possession. For supply, the maximum penalty is 14 years in prison and a fine."
       
    2. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      undecided
      Breezy

      undecided Member

      Location:
      Greece
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown.
      GREAT FIND!
      It's not like that's mentioned like 1000 times in the thread already. :rolleyes:
       
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    3. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      temporarily banished from this plane of existence.
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      karma
      @undecided I guess we have very different cats; a staggered dose of 5 capsules (Corvalol) seemed to exacerbate my cat's ringing and had some other undesirable effects so she did not proceed with any dose escalation from there.

      It's also worth noting that, worrying side effects of barbiturates in general aside, Corvalol is clearly unsuitable for regular use because it's other active ingredient is a bromide and has been shown to lead to neurotoxic effects with continued administration....
       
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    4. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      undecided
      Breezy

      undecided Member

      Location:
      Greece
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown.
      Sorry to hear that but thanks for the info @linearb , I guess everyone's different.
      My cat had the opposite outcome, but she doesn't plan on using any more barbs, as she's doing better in general.
       
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    5. Dutchy
      Not worthy

      Dutchy Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Neuronmodulation suggests noise induced?
      Ahem,the second part is more important.
       
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    6. gotyoubynuts

      gotyoubynuts Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/1990
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Concert
      Are there any Mexicans here? Is it true you can buy barbiturates (the strong version) at veterinary stores there?
       
    7. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      temporarily banished from this plane of existence.
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      karma
      you can buy straight up narcotics at human pharmacies within a mile of the border, so I would imagine that barbs would be even easier. Of course, if you don't have a valid prescription, you're flirting with spending 15 years in a mexican jail, regardless of whether you bought it from a vet or a human pharmacist.

      Again, barbs are really, really unlikely to be helpful to people who are not also helped by benzos, and benzos are so much safer and trivially easy to obtain legally in the US that I don't think this is a very useful line of inquiry.
       
    8. Pleasure_Paulie

      Pleasure_Paulie Member

      Location:
      Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise or maybe... unicorns!
      Agree, stick to Benzos :)
       
    9. dboy
      Jaded

      dboy Member Benefactor

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      1/2007 & 8/2013
      Hi @linearb, I'm a bit of a dunce when it comes to pharmacology / how drugs work in the body, etc., and I have a lot of respect for your knowledge/experience in this field. Would you be willing to expand a little bit on why you think this, without getting too technical?

      Let's hypothetically assume I might be able to safely access a small quantity of nembutal. Let's also assume that I am not interested in temporary management of symptoms, only in achieving a lasting reduction of volume. In your opinion, is there any realistic chance that this could be achieved? Conversely, do you think that there is any likelihood that a lasting worsening of tinnitus might occur (as occasionally happens with benzos) as a result of being on this drug for a few weeks?

      Sorry to ask so many questions, and thanks in advance for any thoughts you have. I am asking specifically because of the section below from the link that was provided in the original post, which seems to reference a seemingly respectable study. No worries if you have nothing to add, I just thought I would ask.
      http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...e=online&aid=1128788&fileId=S0022215100085121
       
    10. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      temporarily banished from this plane of existence.
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      karma
      Barbs and benzos do something similar through different mechanisms; they have different receptor targets, but both increase the action of GABA, so they both create sedative effects that are broadly similar.

      A big difference is in how dangerous the two classes of drugs are. A number that's often used to assess drug danger is the "LD50", the "50% lethal dose" - meaning if I give this dose to 100 people, 50 of them will die. The ratio between that LD50 number and a typical/effective dose, tells us something about how toxic the drug is.

      An effective dose of phenobarbital is something like 150-300mg, and for a 150lb human, the LD50 is something like 1200-1400mg. So, taking a 4-5x overdose, is likely to kill you. Benzos on the other hand are astronomically hard to overdose on (unless you've taken other sedatives/alcohol at the same time, in which case they can also become dangerous pretty quickly). I am having a hard time immediately finding an LD50 number for humans, but in rats, it's something like 1400mg/kg for Valium. Even if we assume it's 10 times more lethal in humans than rats, a lethal dose for a 150lb person is something like 10g, which is about a thousand times greater than a typical dose of 10mg.

      So, both phenobarbital and diazepam work by doing something pretty similar, but one of them will kill you if you take 3-5x as much as a usual dose, and the other will kill you if you take 500-1000x as much. Very, very significant difference.

      I think it's incredibly unlikely that any GABA agonist drug will cause a lasting reduction in volume; these drugs do a good job of limiting hyperactivity while they are in the body, and then they wear off, hyperactivity returns, and may be worse for a while if you have taken the drug for a period of time. I also think that there is some risk of long-term elevation in symptoms from using any GABA drug more than infrequently.
       
    11. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      undecided
      Breezy

      undecided Member

      Location:
      Greece
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown.
    12. grate_biff
      Alone

      grate_biff Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Oslo, Norway
      Tinnitus Since:
      09/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic trauma, benzo/mirtazapine withdrawal, or combo!
      I think the answer is all in linearb´s post. As long as you can easily kill yourself on a drug, doctors/community will be very reluctant to prescribe it/give access to it.

      I asked my GP for it. Said he had to confere with fellow docs first. Wich means NO!
       
    13. dboy
      Jaded

      dboy Member Benefactor

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      1/2007 & 8/2013
      OK, thanks for your trouble replying. From what you say it doesn't seem worth trying this out. I always resisted using benzos after the things I read about them and have never doubted that decision. I'm not worried about any danger of accidental overdose with barbs, but would only want to spend several weeks on addictive meds if there was a chance of a lasting benefit.

      I do wonder what was going on in that study though - the results as described in the article do sound unusually promising as regards the benefit at 18 weeks.

      I would guess that it was not followed up because I believe there was a move to reduce use of barbiturates around that time due to the ease of overdose. I guess it was the wrong time to discover new uses for those drugs? Or maybe other studies were done and could not reproduce the results? Just speculating, don't really know. :dunno:
       
    14. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      temporarily banished from this plane of existence.
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      karma
      @dboy fwiw I would expect that the risk of really long-term harm from ~3 months of use, would probably be quite low. However, I'd be surprised if it did anything beneficial, either. That is an interesting study, but one assumes that if it worked it would have been replicated by others at some point; barbs may have been falling out of favor by the time this work was done, but they're still used to some extent in the US and they're pretty cheap and well understood.
       
    15. dboy
      Jaded

      dboy Member Benefactor

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      1/2007 & 8/2013
      I guess it is possible that the results of the study were down to placebo effect, since this was not controlled for. I know the placebo effect can do very powerful things. Although it does seem pretty unlikely that it could make a serious case of tinnitus just disappear - if it could then we'd probably all be discovering tinnitus cures all the time whenever we tried something out.

      Maybe the importance of tinnitus was so little recognised at the time that nobody thought it worth following up? Maybe it wasn't seen as the potential money-spinner it is starting to be seen as now?

      I'm toying with the idea of signing up to pay for access to the paper. Anyone got access to it through a university or similar?
       
    16. gotyoubynuts

      gotyoubynuts Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/1990
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Concert
      I found it
       

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    17. dboy
      Jaded

      dboy Member Benefactor

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      1/2007 & 8/2013
      That's great, thanks very much!

      ...
      Edit to add interesting quote from the introduction:
      It seems there might be other reports to track down, unfortunately from before everything was on the internet.
       
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    18. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      undecided
      Breezy

      undecided Member

      Location:
      Greece
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown.
      Maybe its time to order some more of that sweet dope.
      Just to have around.
       
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    19. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      temporarily banished from this plane of existence.
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      karma
      I don't see any reason to expect permanent or long-term benefit from that study? They put people on a pretty significant dose of barbs for 12 weeks, and the last assessment was 6 weeks afterwards; amylobarbitone has a shorter half-life than phenobarb, but it's still long enough that you'd want to retest ~3-6 months later to prove that you're not just seeing a long-term reduction in neuronal hyperactivity as a direct result of loading on a long-acting sedative for weeks.
      I would recommend a pure barb; that Corvalol shit has another active in it, and it's a bromide. Neurotoxicity ahoy, I hope you load on iodine ;) OTOH there's something hilarious about buying Soviet-bloc downers on eBay, so...
       
    20. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      undecided
      Breezy

      undecided Member

      Location:
      Greece
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown.
      Nah, I'm done with this shit.
      Benzos when and if I really need them and case closed.
      The whole point of this thread has been half-serious anyway.
       
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    21. Pleasure_Paulie

      Pleasure_Paulie Member

      Location:
      Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise or maybe... unicorns!
      You mean your cat is.. :ROFL: Drugs are bad.
       
    22. gotyoubynuts

      gotyoubynuts Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/1990
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Concert
      I wish it wasn't so hard to acquire. Many of us would be trying it...
       
    23. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      temporarily banished from this plane of existence.
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      karma
      what's the advantage over benzos, besides the elevated risk of accidental death? I'm pretty confident that if you replicated the study posted here using a long-acting benzo, you'd see a similar effect, which also might persist for a few weeks afterwards (but almost certainly not more than that).

      Barbs were likely a front line drug for tinnitus prior to the advent of diazepam; if they were a silver bullet we'd know it...
       
    24. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      undecided
      Breezy

      undecided Member

      Location:
      Greece
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown.
      I meant... I'm done ordering.
      That cat won't control me any more, if anyone from the police authorities is reading out there.
       
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    25. linearb
      Psychedelic

      linearb Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      temporarily banished from this plane of existence.
      Tinnitus Since:
      1999
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      karma
      "Feline mind control, and the acquisition of internet-sourced bromide analogs: a case study". To be published in JAMA, Spring 2017.
       
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    26. Codaz

      Codaz Member

      Pentobarbital is seen in films. Barbituates are also used in euthenasia in high doses if I'm correct (>15 gram is lethal). Fine if you possess it: 81.000 euro or 4 years in prison. I'd rather buy myself a gun and say bye bye before spending 4 years in prison with T. Strictly under opium law forbidden. So if this really works there has to be a very good reason that a doctor hands it out.
       
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    27. vermillion
      No Mood

      vermillion Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Neurological damage
      Dignitas use pentobarbital (not phenobarbital). Both are barbiturates but of different class. Pentobarbital is aka. Nembutal. That was its brand name. In the past it was prescribed for treating insomnia, but nowadays it's only being used by vets for animal euthanasia. It's being considered as the gold standard for a peaceful exit. Super DANGEROUS AND SCARY stuff. An overdose of this will indeed silence tinnitus permanently by putting you in eternal sleep. Phenobarb on the other hand is a totally different story, not so dangerous. It's not by chance the only barb still on the market, being prescribed for seizures.
       
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    28. vermillion
      No Mood

      vermillion Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Neurological damage
      Can they throw you in jail just for trying to buy drugs from let's say a veterinarian store? I mean if you don't have a prescription, they just won't give it to you. Right?
       
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    29. vermillion
      No Mood

      vermillion Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Neurological damage
      I was prescribed phenobarbital and had 2 pills of 100mg, one each night, and I took them since my tinnitus got worse and I was quite distressed.

      I can say that they helped me sleep and lowered my tinnitus a bit today. I'll not keep on with this due to the risks and the long half life but it's an absolutely lovely drug :).

      In fact so lovely I could get grams of it and silence my tinnitus forever! Yeyyyy!
       
    30. Bill Bauer
      No Mood

      Bill Bauer Member Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      February, 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
      How did you get your doctor to prescribe pentobarbital to you?
       

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