Inner Ear Hair Cell Regeneration — Maybe We Can Know More

Discussion in 'Research News' started by Hopeful, Sep 6, 2013.

    1. VRZ78

      VRZ78 Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      08/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Viral Infection
      The Audion trial targets people with hearing loss between 25 and 60 db, so not severe and profound hearing loss. Plus they will measure the change in tinnitus
       
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    2. GregCA
      Jaded

      GregCA Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Otosclerosis
      What makes you assert that?
       
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    3. RB2014
      Confused

      RB2014 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2014 became noticable
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loss of hearing and then stress and anxiety
      Right now the greatest hope for T sufferers is the Frequency trial. If it works, it won't just be for people with severe loss, it will be for everyone. To me it seems like we are nowhere near a cure for T. All we can hope for is that one of these hearing loss cures will get rid of our tinnitus.

      From what I have read is the hairs were pregrogrammed to go in the right spots. Just as birds can have a mild loss and only those affected hair cells are restored. I don't think it will need to be a precise treatment as you mention, but its all speculation. There is still hope..... Its more complicated than they thought, but it might be easier than we think!!!
       
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    4. jeff W

      jeff W Member

      Location:
      nakatomi plaza
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2012
      I have often wondered how embarrassed ear clinicians must feel when confronted with competent and skilled professionals within the medical world, can you imagine an audiologist at a conference sitting beside a brain surgeon, the surgeon describes a recent case where he was able to remove a tumour from an adolescent who's mobility then recovered, then an oncologist mentions his average patient and the success he is having with mechanical medicine improving all the time, then they ask the audiologist whats the standard ear complaint, "oh hearing loss and tinnitus, sometimes vertigo", and when he is asked what he can you do for them..............."well I can't do anything really!" Imagine the giggles when his back is turned. We have a special kind of stupid within otology, I am really looking forward to cell based medicine ridding us of these fools with their mickey mouse steroids and plastic hearing aids. So if you are reading this and I know there are clinicians on this forum (being the little voyeurs you are) if you don't want to look like Dumb Dick Danny :clown: in front of patients you know what it is you need to do.
      You cannot make this stuff up.

      25770726483_26051131ec_o.jpg
       
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    5. NatureHiker
      Angelic

      NatureHiker Member

      ????? You do know that's exactly what frequency therapeutics is trying to do and they based their research off hearing regeneration in birds. I was the first one to talk with will McClean via Reddit and he hypothesizes it may very well treat hearing loss induced Tinnitus.

      I don't mean to be offensive, but you need to get a hold of yourself. You sound very emotional and down. You're writing off research without even fully understanding it. There's a lot of hope for the future.
       
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    6. friend

      friend Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      1997
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      head trauma
      I just had stem cells Im about 8 weeks into it. No change at all. My spiking is just as bad as before stem cells. I've also done neurofeedback with no change whats so ever. At times I feel my spiking is worse then from when I started all this.
       
    7. Aaron123

      Aaron123 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      00/0000
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Irrelevant
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    8. Reinier
      Not amused

      Reinier Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Explosion starting engine
      I think what also plays an important part in all this, is that hearing issues are not visible. It doesn't kill you and apart from behaviour, people do not see someone can suffer from these hearing issues.

      I always figured I was empathic to someone else's misfortunes in life.
      But still I could not have envisaged the level of impact this tinnitus, hyperacusis and hard of hearing could have on ones life. I am much more understanding of people that are diagnosed with anything related to hearing and balance.
      I remember what my ENT said to me after the diagnosis as if it was yesterday. Trying to downplay the impact it would have. But what else can you do?
       
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    9. DARREN R
      Fine

      DARREN R Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Dublin, Ireland
      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2007
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic trauma from loud music
      I remember when my T first began nearly 10 years ago. I wasn't that bothered about it at first. I was optimist that I would beat it. I tried every combination of supplements and numerous sound therapies etc etc. It was all just hard earned money down the drain. There are only 2 things I've tried that ever reduced my T. I took lexapro 10mg for a while and that dropped my T by maybe 30-50%. Unfortunately, my hearing dropped also so I stopped taking it and it returned but still not quite as good as before.

      The only other thing that worked to relieve my T is to listen to rain sounds on MY NOISE for a few hours and that seems to make it drop a bit.

      After 10 years with T seeing how slowly progress is being made in treating HL, H and T, I'm under no illusions that a cure is just around the corner just because I have these conditions and I really want them cured. I don't think there's even much sympathy or public understanding for these health issues. I think that's part of the reason why there's no effective treatments yet.
       
    10. Samir
      Obedient

      Samir Manager Staff Benefactor Ambassador Advocate

      Location:
      Sweden
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Accoustic trauma
      Did your T come on instantly or gradually? I wonder because you say you were not bothered by it at first.

      I agree, it's a sad state of affairs. But surely, this will change over time. How long time? No one really knows. We can only speculate. But we are already seeing progress. However, a cure for tinnitus will not come until we know precisely what it is and how it works. A number of discoveries and innovations will need to happen before we can develop an effective treatment or a cure. Meanwhile, we can only try to stay positive and live on to the best of our abilities.

      What have you personally done to try to change this? Have you considered getting involved in different awareness campaigns?
       
    11. DARREN R
      Fine

      DARREN R Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Dublin, Ireland
      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2007
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic trauma from loud music
      I agree entirely. I think there is widespread public ignorance about HL, T and H. I think a lot of people think that a hearing aid will just cure all these issues.
      My T came on instantly one evening as I was sitting on my bed leaning over to tie my shoelaces. I remember feeling a strange sensation in my right ear like fluid moving inside my ear and suddenly this ringing started. I pretty much knew immediately "I now have permanent T" . I had some ringing before for a few seconds like everyone gets every once in a while but I knew this was different immediately. I was actually expecting to develop T because around a year before in 2006 I was exposed to an extremely loud acoustic trauma in a bar by a DJ playing loud music. I only went into this particular bar once and they had a DJ playing music with his own decks and speakers in a small function room. I wasn't even there for the music anyway.

      A dance track he was playing was reaching a crescedo and suddenly got so loud I felt this intense pain in my right ear like a red hot poker being jammed deep inside it. I couldn't cover my right ear as I was holding a drink with nowhere to put it and actually felt paralysed with pain. He nearly blew the speakers as they make this extremely loud interference like noise which must have been 130-150 decibels. Maybe more. The pain was excruciating and went on for about 5-7 seconds. I remember actually going deaf for a split second so I assume that was my entire inner ear haircells being knocked flat with some probably being destroyed instantly. I remember seeing one of the barstaff scream in agony also as he was pouring a drink. The DJ wasn't even in a hurry to turn it down so I assume he probably couldn't hear it with a headset on probably with earplugs in underneath. His ears were safe so he obviously had no concern for the customers or staff. He must have known how dangerous this was but didn't give a sh*t. It was one of the most dangerous and negligent acts I ever seen a person do. He should have done a stretch in prison and never been allowed to DJ again. It probably wasn't the only time he did this and I'm sure if his system of work is common with most DJs then incidents like this have happened many times . How can a person who is plugging their ears and covering them with a headset even know how loud the music they're playing is. He clearly had no idea how loud it was and couldn't hear the loud interference like noise as he was almost blowing his JBLs. I'm sure the equipment has some DB meter on it but what if they're not looking at it. Some of these DJs even drink while they work. That sounds like a recipe for disaster and proves that some of these people aren't even responsible enough to be in charge of such dangerous equipment. The strange thing was that after the incident, none of the customers or staff approached the DJ. I think it would have been perfectly understandable to see someone swing a dig at him and start smashing his gear up. No one did anything. I don't think anyone really understood how dangerous the incident had been. I'm fairly sure that one incident is the reason for my T in both ears and the HL and H in the right ear. My right ear was basically massacred. Going into that bar that night is the biggest regret in my life.

      I didn't go to loud music venues very often compared to most people I knew. Just 3 concerts in my whole life way back around 96-97 when I was 18-19. I don't think anyone from my peers would ever have thought to wear earplugs back then. I remember the last concert I went to in 97 when I had a mild temporary threshold shift. I was terrified and told my friends I'd never go to a concert again. So I never did. I lived quite like a monk for a number of years afraid of loud music venues but around my mid-20's I started going to some clubs and bars maybe 50-70 times over a 2 year period. I never used earplugs because quite frankly I wasn't even aware "earplugs for clubs and concerts" even existed as a commercially available product. Around this time in Ireland (2004-06) I never seen anybody wearing any ear protection at a nightclub. I don't think anyone really knew how dangerous the environment they were in was and there were no signs up at any of these places warning us.

      I think we all just thought "this must be normal and must have been checked out by some relevant Government agency. Obviously, we were way of the mark there. What was actually happening was an utterly appalling lack of appropriate laws and regulations being enforced by the Government of my Country with the very same problem going on across Europe and the entire Western World. I don't want to sound like I'm trying to blame someone else for my T, but ultimately I believe that if a loud music venue is so loud that it will likely cause HL, T or H very quickly, there's a bit of an onus there to warn patrons and staff about this risk. Clearly, the relevent Government agencies were not checking this out at all and must have been asleep on the issue. There's clearly a big problem with the DJs system of work also and the standard of their training and attitude to safety. A few warning signs at loud music venues would also have helped a great deal with awareness. All it really would have taken was a few signs like "Customers entering these premises please be aware of the risk of hearing damage- Loud music can cause Tinnitus" "We encourage or customers and staff to wear earplugs" Earplugs available at the entrance. None of this was done. I think this is still not the case in Ireland. A pathetic management of such a serious public health risk. What were all these Government health advisors doing? They should have been pounding the table about this for decades . It was all grossly irresponsible and I believe the consequences will start to emerge over the next 10-20 years as hearing problems become more common directly as a result of all this negligence.

      Young people are lucky now that there's more awareness of T and the need for earplugs at loud music venues. The awareness in Ireland is still not so good as some other Countries though. I think my generation were just unlucky that we were not informed at all about the health risks from loud music venues. I've emailed many times to Government Ministers and various Government agencies in Ireland. They generally don't seem too concerned. Their "Mind your Hearing" campaign actually seems more like a hearing aid sales drive and doesn't talk much about NIHL or T from concerts and clubs.
       
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    12. jeff W

      jeff W Member

      Location:
      nakatomi plaza
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2012
      I also remember my ENT visit, he totally misrepresented the seriousness of my injury and left it to my physio to disclose the extent of damage. What a complete coward of a man. I am not finished with him either. ;) I could tell you stories about ENT's where I am and how they fiddle the system. Its very important that we ridicule them for both doing nothing and TAKING OUR MONEY.
      Greedy Pig ENT Counts his Cash


      Imagine a large portion of us requested a partial refund to be paid to the HHF under threat of litigation, I can promise everyone here that whilst they may not take patients seriously they are absolute terrified of lawyers that can damage their reputation and increase the premiums.




      ccwisvxweaazygy.jpg
       
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    13. Reinier
      Not amused

      Reinier Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Explosion starting engine
      I enjoyed listening to Anthony Ricci. (youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=Mt627wjkMOk)
      Especially the first part where he explains the workings of the inner ear.
       
    14. jeff W

      jeff W Member

      Location:
      nakatomi plaza
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2012

      They are going to put another Ricci interview up soon.


      Until then!
      15977611_10211427757427918_362824062697350419_n.jpg
       
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    15. Coleoptere
      Alone

      Coleoptere Member

      Location:
      The Hague
      Tinnitus Since:
      2002
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Bell's Palsy, hearing loss
      Not sure where I should post it and if it has been posted before, but the Genvec trails P1/P2 has now an end date of June 2019:

      https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02132130

      Maybe because they have difficulty to recruit patients who meet the inclusion criteria for the test
       
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    16. Samir
      Obedient

      Samir Manager Staff Benefactor Ambassador Advocate

      Location:
      Sweden
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Accoustic trauma
      This is not a new clinical trial, or another research paper. But I found this very educational. For those of us who want to know more! It's a presentation given by Prof. James Hudspeth, MD, Phd, at Cornell university 7 years ago. Lots of this is still relevant today.

      http://www.cornell.edu/video/james-hudspeth-how-hearing-happens

      Enjoy!

      There is captioning and transcript available for those that are hard of hearing or have difficulties with the English language.

      For those who are interested in knowing who this man is, check out this page:

      https://www.rockefeller.edu/our-scientists/heads-of-laboratories/1186-a-james-hudspeth/

      He is such an accomplished scientist! I would say that he rivals Dr. Charles M. Liberman in this area of research.
       
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    17. Reinier
      Not amused

      Reinier Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Explosion starting engine
      You need the caption. Audio is pretty bad with al the reverb.


      Unfortunately it seems I am not able to play the clip (therefore also no caption). Why? I don't know yet.

      Found the problem.
      My Firefox browser does not play, but Explorer does. With caption (-;
      Also, I spoke too soon. Only the introduction was bad audio.
       
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    18. Samir
      Obedient

      Samir Manager Staff Benefactor Ambassador Advocate

      Location:
      Sweden
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Accoustic trauma
      Especially the introduction by Carl Hopkins.

      I am a Firefox user myself, but I watched this video with Chrome on this occasion.

      I just tested this in Firefox 53.0.3 on Windows 10 and it worked.

      Whatever works for you! I hope you like the video.
       
    19. Reinier
      Not amused

      Reinier Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Explosion starting engine
      I will watch it tomorrow. It is over an hour. But the few minutes I did see where already interesting(y).
       
    20. Samir
      Obedient

      Samir Manager Staff Benefactor Ambassador Advocate

      Location:
      Sweden
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Accoustic trauma
      @Reinier,

      Yes, it is a bit long. But that's what makes it worth a watch. It's not just another YouTube clip. He gets very technical, which I like a lot. There is a lot of physics and math in there, which is essential in understanding such a complex instrument as the human ear is.

      Spoiler alert!!! Some of the things he describes include:
      • Audio "sonograms" (first time I see it called this way)
      • Amplitude discrimination
      • Frequency discrimination
      • Angular acceleration
      • Linear acceleration
      • Basilar membrane ("magical string")
      • Compression
      • Rarefaction
      • Frequency (Fourier) analysis
      • Tuning curves
      • Natural frequency
      • Nerve fibers
      • Hair cells
      • Stereocilial architecture
      • Stereocilial physical and chemical mechanisms
      • Active amplification and gain control
      • Otoacoustic emissions
      There are 3 really cool demonstrations that he does:
      • He demonstrates how we can hear tones that don't exist. It's not exactly tinnitus, but relates to the cochlear amplifier and otoacoustic emissions, a phenomenon known as difference tones or Tartini tones (it's on Wikipedia).
      • He uses honey, springs and weights to demonstrate how the stereocilias vibrate submurged in endolymph.
      • He gives a simulated demonstration of how the cochlear implant sounds to the patient, depending on the number of channels it has.
      I hope I did not spoil it too much! :) Well worth a watch!

      He touches on the meaning of 40 dB or 60 dB loss, it's something that you or @Rubenslash were debating a bit earlier in this or the Frequency thread, if I recall correctly. You were discussing weather or not this means a loss of inner or outer hair cells. Someone made a reference to it, I'll see if I can find that post again. Update: here!
       
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    21. Kekistan

      Kekistan Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      My T also started from nowhere when i was in My bed i also had those 10 seconds but i felt that this was diffrent i wonder if this Say something about someones tinitus.
       
    22. Reinier
      Not amused

      Reinier Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Explosion starting engine
      Agree!

      I am a little puzzled by the amplification principle.
      He does not mention outer or inner hair cells.
      There also apparently is still some things unknown about the frequency tuning in the basilar membrane.
      But very interesting.
      It does make me even more sad that this amazing inner ear has been damaged by such brute force :grumpy:.
       
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    23. Reinier
      Not amused

      Reinier Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Explosion starting engine
      I had another look at the clip featuring professor Hudspeth.
      He is suggesting the 40 dB gain is generated bu the hair cells themselves. No mention of outer hair cells.
      Also the basilar membrane is supposed to be tuned to different frequencies. This makes the basilar membrane so much more complex in my understanding. I do not understand than why we are able to hear so accurate the different frequencies (as he explains and demonstrates in the clip).

      Also, I listened with my most damaged ear to these phantom tones. If I understand correct these phantom tones is an effect of this amplification mechanism in healthy hear cells. I was still able to hear this effect (only just).
      So could this be a way to check if hair cells are damaged :)
      Or, could this mean that damaged hair cells usually die and only healthy hair cells remain?
       
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    24. spingee
      Wtf

      spingee Member

      Basilar membrane is natural fourier transformation. It has different width and different density along. Which just mean it decompose particular frequencies at particular places thats all.
      He didnt mention that amplifing feature of outer hair cells is also controlled by brain. If this would not true, hearing aids would help same as glasses for eyes, and thats not the case, not even close.

      Those phantom tones was very low frequency 500-1000hz.
       
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    25. Samir
      Obedient

      Samir Manager Staff Benefactor Ambassador Advocate

      Location:
      Sweden
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Accoustic trauma
      True!

      He kind of implied it, but yes, he should have stated that more clearly.

      Meaning that's why @Reinier here was able to hear them on his most damaged ear, right? Yeah, that makes sense to me.

      Reinier, you could try making the same phantom sounds at your most damaged frequencies? That should be a more proper test. But even then, if the damage is not too severe, you may still be able to detect them. Maybe it would be lower in amplitude. But remember what the professor said, we are not nearly as good at detecting amplitude fluctuations as we are at frequency fluctuations, thanks to our "natural Fourier analyzer" (a.k.a. the basilar membrane).
       
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    26. Samir
      Obedient

      Samir Manager Staff Benefactor Ambassador Advocate

      Location:
      Sweden
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Accoustic trauma
      Yes, but if you know the basics of hair cells, you will know that it's the outer hair cells that exhibit the amplifying role. But yes, he should have stated that more clearly.

      It does add to the complexity, definitely. But it's not really magic, unless you see science as magic. (In the Middle Ages, many of the things we take for granted today would have been seen as magic.) It has to do with the geometry of the basilar membrane, as Spingee explained.

      It would make more sense to me, than playing single tones like audiologists do. It makes me wonder when the amplifier of the inner ear was discovered. He suggested it was Tommy Gold who first had this idea already in 1948. But I wonder who first proved it. I think these tones might be worth exploring as a means for hair cell diagnosis. Interesting idea Reinier! :)

       
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    27. Reinier
      Not amused

      Reinier Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Location:
      Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      06/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Explosion starting engine
      I am not sure what you mean. What I find astonishing is that, with the length of the basilar membrane we are able to have such frequency discrimination. Is the length approximately 2.5 cm? On average we are able to detect a 0.2 % pitch change. Is this than 0.2% of 2.5 cm? Musicians apparently are able to hear much more accurate than this 0.2%! All that I think is remarkable.
      Perhaps what I want to say is that frequency discrimination is not only happening in the inner ear?
      Yes. I realise that. The thing is that I need hardware for that, that at the moment is not available. I will however try this in the future.
      That is just it. I think he is talking about inner hair cells (or hair cells in general?). Inner hair cells have tips connected too, don't they?
       
    28. Aaron123

      Aaron123 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      00/0000
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Irrelevant
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    29. vermillion
      Whistles

      vermillion Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Possibly from Fluconazole / H + Dysacusis later on
    30. Tinker Bell

      Tinker Bell Member Hall of Fame

      Location:
      U.S.
      Tinnitus Since:
      02/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      SSHL from virus
      According to the article, yes. Both tinnitus and hyperacusis were specifically mentioned along with hearing loss.
       
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