Ketamine Relieves Depression By Restoring Brain Connections

Discussion in 'Research News' started by Nic B, Oct 5, 2012.

tinnitus forum
    1. Nic B

      Nic B Member

      Location:
      Gatineau, Qc
      Tinnitus Since:
      08/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Heavy Metal \m/
      Lately there has been alot of hype around ketamine for the treatement of depression. There has also been some talks regarding NMDA receptor agonists and Tinnitus. Ketamine is a powerful NMDA receptor agonist. I have read comparisons between Tinnitus and phantom limb pain. I know that Ketamine, and also one of it's analogues, methoxetamine has been used to treat Phantom limb pain.

      A recent study has showed that it looks like ketamine is actually restoring brain connections.

      I'm very curious to know how this would apply to Tinnitus.

      http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/10/04/162299564/ketamine-relieves-depression-by-restoring-brain-connections?ft=1&f=100
       
    2. erik
      Breezy

      erik Manager Staff Benefactor

      Location:
      Washington State, USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/15/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Most likely hearing loss
      Nic B, it is possible this could work for T along with other similar drugs. See this below and link for more info

      Summary:
      The invention relates to methods for preventing and/or treating tinnitus induced by cochlear excitotoxicity in a human. The methods include administering to a human a therapeutically effective amount of a pharmaceutical composition comprising an NMDA receptor antagonist. In a method for treating tinnitus, the NMDA receptor antagonist administered is effective to suppress or reduce NMDA receptor mediated aberrant activity of the auditory nerve in the human in need of such treatment. In a method for preventing tinnitus, the NMDA receptor antagonist administered is effective to prevent NMDA receptor mediated aberrant activity of the auditory nerve in the human in need of such treatment. The tinnitus to be prevented and/or treated may be provoked by acoustic trauma, presbycusis, ischemia, anoxia, sudden deafness, or other cochlear excitotoxic-inducing occurrence.

      Methods for the treatment of tinnitus induced by cochlear excitotoxicity
       
      • Like Like x 1
    3. calin
      Inspired

      calin Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      Oct 2011
      I don't want to be the guinea pig on this one! lol
       
    4. Nic B

      Nic B Member

      Location:
      Gatineau, Qc
      Tinnitus Since:
      08/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Heavy Metal \m/
      I kinda do lol
       
      • Like Like x 1
    5. mock turtle

      mock turtle Member

      Location:
      puget sound
      Tinnitus Since:
      07/26/1992...habituated after 2 years; 11/04/11 new outbreak
      Nic B, thanks for the information and the link

      very interesting stuff restoring brain connections

      btw, i believe ketamine is not an agonist...but rather an nmda antagonist ( but hey i could be wrong cause....

      i get confused, often between neurotransmitter receptor agonists and antoagonists...its easy to get confused because for example, neurotransmitters such as GABA are inhibitory and when we inhibit or antagonize an inhibitor...what have we got is kinda like a double negative......my head spins from double negatives :)

      what i find so fascinating about all this, is that MSG is clearly bad stuff for many many tinnitus sufferers, and of course the G in msg is for glutamate and excitatory neurotransmitter

      glutamate, i believe...(remember i get easily confused) is an nmda agonist, so ketamine being an nmda antagonist would (could?) counter act glutamate and "quiet things down in our ears"

      ( and of course the quiet we are looking for probably needs to happen somewhere between the ear and the auditory cortex, but who knows where T comes from for sure, as the debate rages on)

      best wishes
      mt
       
    6. mock turtle

      mock turtle Member

      Location:
      puget sound
      Tinnitus Since:
      07/26/1992...habituated after 2 years; 11/04/11 new outbreak
      from CBS news

      http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_1...of-drugs-could-offer-depression-breakthrough/

      "Jim Staples, 58, has suffered from depression since his twenties.
      "I tried to commit suicide, and it wasn't a hearty attempt," Staples says. "It was just screaming out for help." snip
      "The medicines that I had been taking over the years, they only work for two to three years and then they just fizzled out," Staples adds.
      In depressed patients such as Jim Staples, brain cell communication breaks down. Current medications target a chemical called serotonin to help brain cells talk to each other. But it's present in just five percent of those cells. snip
      These new drugs target a different chemical called glutamate, present in 80 percent of brain cells. Researchers believe these new drugs restore the lost communication better than older drugs, which can take months to kick in.
      "The exciting part of some of these newer medications is that they might, in fact, produce very rapid antidepressant effects, within hours or days," says Dr. Gerard Sanacora of Yale University, who is leading one of the trials.
      The new approach was discovered by accident, when doctors noticed that an anesthesia drug -- ketamine, which targets glutamate -- relieved depression. But it also caused symptoms that mimicked schizophrenia...."
      ketamine blocks the nmda receptor at the allosteic site and is a glutamate antagonist
      ---------
      from wikipedia heres a snip but hey check out the entire wikipedia article...amazing stuff
      --------
      tamine is a noncompetitive NMDA receptor (NMDAR) antagonist. More specifically, ketamine binds to the allosteric site of the NMDA receptor, effectively inhibiting its channel. The S(+) and R(-) stereoisomers bind with different affinities: Ki = 3200 and 1100 nM, respectively.[41] NMDAR antagonism effects analgesia by preventing central sensitization in dorsal horn neurons; in other words, ketamine's actions interfere with pain transmission in the spinal cord.[27] Ketamine also inhibits nitric oxide synthase, inhibiting production of nitric oxide, a neurotransmitter involved in pain perception, and hence further contributing to analgesia.[42] Ketamine also interacts with sigma and opioid receptors, but with lower affinity and without significantly contributing to analgesia.[43]
      Ketamine also interacts with a host of other receptors to effect analgesia. It blocks voltage-sensitive calcium channels and depressessodium channels, attenuating hyperalgesia; it alters cholinergic neurotransmission, which is implicated in pain mechanisms; and it acts as a noradrenergic and serotonergic uptake inhibitor, which are involved in descending antinociceptive pathways.[27][44]
      ----
      very interesting drug.... reminds me of tianeptine that louise was talking about on another thread
       
    7. Louise

      Louise Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Yorkshire, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      29/06/2012
      Was just thinking the same :)
       
    8. Aisling

      Aisling Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      18/9/12
      Is this not what is in AM101 drug? I think someone posted this
       
    9. mock turtle

      mock turtle Member

      Location:
      puget sound
      Tinnitus Since:
      07/26/1992...habituated after 2 years; 11/04/11 new outbreak
      i dont remember the formula name for am-101

      but yes i believe that both ketamine and am 101, are nmda antagonists

      i must confess

      i dont know what "non competitive" , in the lead article, means, but i will research it

      best wishes
      mt
       
    10. Deep
      Balanced

      Deep Member

      I'll try it for you this weekend and get back to you, I never really take it but a "source" has pure so will let you know. I am the guinea pig people have been looking for haha.

      Obviously I do my research and take suitable amounts. I will also try to evaluate the situation whilst under the influence as much as possible to consider an actual reduction in volume, placebo, or anti-depressive state.
       
    11. Steve H
      Creative

      Steve H Director Staff Benefactor Team Trobalt Team Tech Team Awareness Team Research

      Location:
      York, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      2003
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Flu, Noise-induced, Jaw trauma
      Deep you are indeed a selfless individual, to give your body to scientific study is a noble cause. Though you may need an assistant to take notes and help evaluate, it's difficult to do that whilst spannered in the corner. I suppose the 'medical' dose will be a fair bit less than the 'clubbing' dose.
       
    12. Aisling

      Aisling Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      18/9/12
      Good on ya deep! I also think this is a good one to try. They say that AM101 is based on ketamine. please make sure you report back to us deep on how you get on. Thanks!
       
    13. exodus
      Cold

      exodus Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2008
    14. Deep
      Balanced

      Deep Member

      Right guys I have completed the task.

      I went into this experiment with spiking T and hypercausis (5/10 which is bad for me), although people must note that I usually have a week of my T behaving and during that week my hypercausis pretty much disappears, this always happens after I have had a bad spike so this might effect the results of this experiment. (Basically I might of just moved into a good week, during these numerous tests).

      I would also recommend this experiment for someone with severe Tinnitus that doesn't really fluctuate in level. 1. So that you can monitor the changes more accurately. 2. Obviously you are hammered whilst under the influence so it isn't a very practical every day solution for T.

      1st day, took a small amount - no real change, although it worked as an anti-depressant, so this allowed me to really tune out of the T whenever I wished and focus my mind on something else, just like when you read a book for example and during a paragraph you could of sworn you experienced complete silence.

      2nd day, took slightly more - again no real change but my hypercausis was completely gone! In addition when in complete silence I could really work on turning down the volume mentally.

      3rd day - hypercausis still vanished along with a general sense of my ears not having to work as hard (a pressure variance sensation if you will) like my central nervous system was in less shock.

      4th day - woke up with very quite Tinnitus, the quietest it's been in a while, maybe a 1.75 / 10, and this was tested whilst plugging my ears! Hypercausis still completely diminished and T has somewhat remained at a very quite level during the day, maybe slightly louder now but only about a 2.5 / 10.

      Yes very unprofessional experiment but I was obviously having a lot of fun during this so tried to make notes the best I could. Please if you have any other questions I would be more than happy to answer them.

      Yes Kitamine does cause bladder damage but this is from heavy everyday use for years, so please do not warn me as I rarely take the drug, but thanks for the heads up! I recommend everyone must research Kitamine individually and come up with their own personal decision on whether they might like to try it or not, instead of people getting scared away buy some horror article on the net about how it messed someones life up after years of addiction.

      Thanks

      Deep
       
      • Like Like x 2
    15. Esko
      Wishful

      Esko Member

      Location:
      Sweden
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Rock concert. No hearing loss identified.
      I'd like an update Deep. Did the tinnitus stay away? :wideyed:
       
    16. Hudson
      Cowboy

      Hudson Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      2003
      I am interested in this as well. How long have you had your T and did it stay at low levels? AM-101 is basically Ketamine if I remember correctly, or very similar. They just locally apply it to the ear instead of a systemic application.
       
    17. Deep
      Balanced

      Deep Member

      Still pretty low in volume, hypercausis still diminished / gone depending on the day. Yes a systemic application would be better.
       
    18. yonkapin

      yonkapin Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Melbourne, Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      March 2012
      How have you been doing since your little experiment?! I may be doing my own little experiment soon, have had some ketamine lying around for a while that I still have yet to try, bit scared of going too deep but my friends seemed to have a blast on it - if it has any positive effect on my tinnitus/hyperacusis I will be well happy!
       
    19. Deep
      Balanced

      Deep Member

      Its not a permanent cure, but I did find relief for a week or two after. Any drug that works to prevent central sensitization will give most some type of relief.
       
    20. erik
      Breezy

      erik Manager Staff Benefactor

      Location:
      Washington State, USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/15/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Most likely hearing loss
      Deep, did you only find relief when you took Ketamine and how many consecutive days did you take it? Thx
       
    21. Deep
      Balanced

      Deep Member

      3 consecutive days, had relief after the ketamine, not necessarily during. Other things give me relief but that's off topic, I see ketamine as a kind of reset.
       
    22. Golly
      Bookworm

      Golly Member Benefactor Team Awareness Team Research

      Location:
      New York City
      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2011
      Is Ketamine available in the US? Is it in fact FDA-approved to treat anything yet? In any case, Deep, I am happy to hear that three days of this drug has brought you extended relief.

      Deep: You acknowledge that your experiment was not exactly scientific (i.e. you did not control for various factors). I am curious as to whether your tinnitus comes and goes on its own. If so, can you elaborate on such a pattern in the absence of Ketamine?

      -Golly
       
    23. jazz
      No Mood

      jazz Member Benefactor

      Location:
      US
      Tinnitus Since:
      8/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      eardrum rupture from virus; barotrauma from ETD
      Ketamine is known as a dissociative anesthetic. A popular clubbing drug, its official use is an anesthetic in veterinary and dental procedures. Below is the wikipedia article on ketamine, and another one on its anesthetic properties:


      Here's the reference to ketamine's cousin that is in drug development, though not for tinnitus. Still, the drug could be exciting for us and is moving through the clinical trial process:


      Here is a reference to several clinical trials with GLYX-13:

       
    24. Golly
      Bookworm

      Golly Member Benefactor Team Awareness Team Research

      Location:
      New York City
      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2011
      Thanks Jazz---very helpful! (I won't ask where Deep acquired his treatment.) -G
       
    25. Deep
      Balanced

      Deep Member

      Again I apologize for a very amateur experiment. I could execute a scientific one if everyone's down? ie. measure mg taken, how many doses until relief, side effects, how long it lasts, etc. I was with friends at the time and couldn't exactly write things down!

      The main benefit I noticed was a decrease in hypercausis and for me T and hypercausis come hand in hand, when my T behaves so does my hypercausis.
       
    26. erik
      Breezy

      erik Manager Staff Benefactor

      Location:
      Washington State, USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/15/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Most likely hearing loss
      Deep, we appreciate the information. So much of having T is being the human guinea pig. Only do what you are comfortable with and thanks
       
      • Agree Agree x 1
    27. Golly
      Bookworm

      Golly Member Benefactor Team Awareness Team Research

      Location:
      New York City
      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2011
      Hi Deep:

      Just to be clear, when you say "hyperacusis", are you referring to an inability to tolerate normal sounds? Or, like many of us, are you describing the aggravation that particular sounds give to your tinnitus? In my case, the sound of and air conditioner, for example, makes me more aware of my tinnitus. This, in turn, gives rise to what can be characterized as "misophonia": the hatred of particular sounds.

      -Golly
       
    28. Deep
      Balanced

      Deep Member

      It's like sound that is in the frequency of my T (quite high) so clangy plates or treble heavy low quality in-built iphone speakers sound to me slightly distorted. My hyperacusis is very strange because it only happens with a certain frequency and that frequency has to be at a certain volume in order to cause discomfort.

      It feels slightly like a contraction of the ear drum. Again I have good weeks and slightly annoying weeks, this fluctuation in behavior makes it hard for me to do a fair experiment.
       
    29. Deep
      Balanced

      Deep Member

      No problem. I appreciate no one is telling me to do this and I know that Kitamine is a class C drug in the UK, no-one on the forum has forced me to do this, let me make that clear. I have decided to conduct a proper experiment. Well a proper experiment needs to be spread between many people, BUT I will do the best I can and space out the experiment over 3 doses of 30mg per week for 2 weeks.

      I'll start within the month.
       
      • Like Like x 1
    30. Steve H
      Creative

      Steve H Director Staff Benefactor Team Trobalt Team Tech Team Awareness Team Research

      Location:
      York, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      2003
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Flu, Noise-induced, Jaw trauma
      If I was closer to Bristol I would probably join in (not the kind of thing we can do via royal mail), it's intriguing to know how it works with the T especially given its relationship to current trial treatment. In years past I have had substances with Ketamine in so I can imagine how it may help, definitely in a psychological sense if no other. The disassociation would probably be very helpful, kind of like instantly going to the end of a successful CBT / TRT combo program. The key is in getting a dose that will help whilst letting you still function normally.

      What does 30mg equate to in relation to a 'clubbng dose'?
       

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