Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

Good for you!

Move along...

 

Moved!

 

Doesn´t look like?

 

Looks like total 4 months, 2 months last year and 2 months now.

I started the next day right after the tretament in IBIZA, and doing it since then, 35 / 40 minutos, But is good to stop for a wille. Other wise you never know how you reacting. So i break from time to time is ok. I was afraid of stoping, but in a few months if you stop for 2 days is ok, In my opinion keep doing it everyday. ATEOS says the breaks should be longer based on Sam and Hansi blogs, But they make the breaks almost one year after starting the tretament. And mostly due to the use of high power.
Hansi went to the treatment in Norway, and did not stop making the MLS, the only diference was 5 days in / 5 das out.

The better you start felling the less time you pretend to do it, I was anxious to make the treatment almost everyday in the beginning, now that i´m fellin better if i miss one day or two no problem. In my opinion keep doing what you doing now. That is what I did.

So maybe we can met, today was a very good day. Very low and some times where I didn´t notice it. Maybe the SC is starting to make is part. I will wait a little more maybe. But going there for sure.


Just select part of a text, and then a QUOTE sign shows up.

 

From what i can see from hansi's blog, is that the first maybe 6month or more, he did 5 days on and 2 days off while only useing the MLS.
So thats alot of time wasted over a one year period. Over 100 days of no treatment.
But u are right about stopping to see and feel the effect once in a while.
If this 9 month cirkle is true, then it makes sense to me, that u wonna have the FULL potential of the high regeneration within the first 3 month of treatment and even the next 3 month of less healing before taking any breaks.
So thats also why im trying to maximize the treatment as close to the upper level as possible of what i think is within the "safezone" here in the beginning.
Dont wonna overtreat obv.

Last night i found a way to adjust the earpluglasers, so the point a bit back and down and that gave me an instant bonus today. Cuz iv just finnished a 40min session on both ears and also did 10min behind the ears afterwards. Today i could feel (hear) the same respond from the haircells that i only had in the beginning when treated by Wilden.
I had a lot of *biiiibz* comming and going and also got a totally knew sound. Its a VERY fast metallic pulsating sound.
So this to me is VERY positive and promessing.
Im def. gonna keep up this high volume treatment, until i get a reason not to...like pain in the ears or something like that. Hansi wrote that happened to him when he overtreated his ears.

I forgot...when was your first treatment in Ibiza??

About meeting in Oslo is possible just for the fun of it.
I cant say any date yet. Cuz it depends on my mom.
When i get back to Denmark in the beginning of Dec. ill start her up on the homelaser as well and if she gets any responds, ill take her with me to Anna.
My mom is close to deaf on one ear and have hearingaid on the other and very bad tinnitus like me.
But i can let u know when i know more.

About the 2 out of 3 noises i wrote in previous post that i lost during treatment by wilden is not 100% true.
In the last part of his treatment and also after getting home, i got very brief and faint cricketnoises.
But the where almost always connected to the time while recieving laser and NO where near the cricketnoises i had before! That was insane at times.
The other sound i said i lost, was this high EEEEEEE tone. (The worst)
Before treatment, this tone was constant. Now its only there on bad days and gone on the good ones, which only leave me with that low volume, high pitch metallic sound that i sometimes dont notice when outside.
So progress is def. there and more seems to be around the corner

 

I'd like to share some of what I've discovered in the brief research I've done about this. First off (not sure whether this is news or not) I found a webshop where one can purchase Dr. Wilden's home treatment devices. It goes by the rather un-medical sounding name of "Lux Spa Ibiza":

http://lux-spa-ibiza.com/index.php/en/lux-spa-home-laser-online-shop

I was intrigued by the price discrepancy between the cheaper LLLT lasers on Ebay, etc, and the ones sold by more established LLLT companies. Presumably there are some certification hurdles to do this thing above board, but still a big price difference. I found that even the professional companies devices might be built around basic laser diodes that range in cost from almost nothing up to a few hundred pounds. The following link takes you to a paper about the selection of laser diodes for LLLT lasers:

http://medicallasersystems.com/about_laser.html

In this paper we learn (amongst other interesting things) that

"A laser diode has never been produced specifically to generate laser light for use in Low Level Laser Therapy (LLLT). Laser therapy manufacturers have been using whatever laser diodes were available from industrial, military or medical applications. For these applications, the laser diode's wavelength, and various other important parameters, were carefully matched to the design needs of printers, fiber optic transmission systems, ranging systems, target illuminators or PDT. Nothing has ever been done to manufacture laser diodes with the wavelength, half power points, slope efficiency and power output required to optimize LLLT treatment."

I began to wonder what is actually in the devices sold by the established LLLT sellers that justifies the price tag. Could simple laser modules such as those sold below (several with power supplies) effectively do the same job?

http://odicforce.com/epages/05c54fb...6-7778-4d36-adc0-0098b2af7c4e/Categories/8/10

The company 'Thor' makes lasers for LLLT and they list a wide range of laser diodes for sale. The prices of most of these do seem more as one would expect from the prices of the complete laser units, but I am not clear what is different about them from the cheaper ones sold elsewhere. Perhaps it is a matter of specification tolerances?

http://www.thorlabs.de/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=7

These presumably only need a power supply and some means of controlling current flow through them (a resistor or variable resistor) in order to work. This could be made easily and cheaply. It is an intriguing thought. I sometimes dabble in DIY electronics for audio as a hobby (less so since my tinnitus got worse). Not hugely knowledgeable in that field, but I know that for a few quid I can now put together a hifi amplifier that sounds better than ones costing hundreds in the shops. The big companies have the market set up in their favour for people not 'in the know'. Maybe this is a similar example? Maybe not.

So what is needed? The main parameters for the LLLT laser seem to be wavelength and power output. It seems it is preferred if the spread of wavelength around the central frequency is small. Anyone with any specific knowledge about this area please post what you know. Any conformists who just want to tell me how foolish I am being for thinking this way and to just hand over what is left of my savings to Dr Wilden please refrain as I have that voice in my head too (& have already spent around 2K GBP on tinnitus treatments that did not help me). I am not an idiot (I have a PhD. in an unrelated topic). I am only gathering and sharing information at this stage, and certainly do not want to encourage anyone to go down this path without greater insight than I have so far managed to share.

That said, some people have made their own LLLT units with different parameters than tinnitus requires:

http://www.henrylahore.com/Health/LLLT.html

http://www.overmachogrande.com/

There are also some slightly gung-ho experiments amongst the nootropics fans at the site below, and somebody had some negative effects from using a focussed laser pointer on their brain. This is a warning against doing this without a good idea what you are playing with, especially since LLLT for tinnitus would involve pointing the laser at your ear (and hence also brain) for longer than these guys. I think treating tinnitus would need a laser that was unfocussed (can anyone feedback on this?)

http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/72558-lllt-usage-correlates-with-productivity/

http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/63879-low-level-laser-therapy/

Anyway, it is my intention to try and learn more about this. I am slow and steady, so it might take time. I would definitely not advise anyone to try using any home-made or not medically approved laser on their ears - certainly not without first carrying out extensive tests on less sensitive parts of ones body. Eg. with healing of cuts or arthritic joints, or in my case patches of psoriasis, all of which a genuine LLLT capable laser should apparently help with.

I hope it is OK to post this here as we have had a DIY version of the ACRN treatment on the site for a while (although that is less potentially dangerous). If this info is considered too risky then could mods please remove it.

 

@dboy - i have read the info u provide before, back when i did my own research about LLLT, like everybody else should do.
Iv been thinking about the same stuff u now are doing and have seen videos on youtube on how to make your own laser ect.
I just dont have the skill and interest to sit down and work with this stuff.
So i rather just pay and get something i know have worked on others.
Especially when its for use on something like tinnitus, that might take minimum 6month before u get any results.
Thats not the kind of time i am willing to maybe waste on a home made device, while feeling like hell with high tinnitus and then maybe ending up having to buy a proff laser afterwards and spend another 6month before u get a slight reduction in your tinnitus.

What kind of treatment did u waste 2k GBP on if i may assk??

 

The lasers used for treating tinnitus ARE unfocused, unlike a normal laserpointer that when u point it at a wall 3 meter from u, u will see a dot of about 1cm.
With a tinnitus laser, u will have a field on the wall of something like 50cm x 30cm.

Just tested my earplug lasers from the Lux spa laser on the wall 3 meters away and the light from the laser made a 150cm x 50cm field of light.

 

Hi Nick - sure, I certainly see the advantage of going with Dr. W's tried & tested units and may still jump this way myself eventually to avoid wasting time/effort. Just thinking it might be worth sharing my research and thinking as there are some pretty smart people on here and you never know what kind of dialogue might evolve.

My tinnitus is not acute so at this point I have the luxury/necessity of taking my time. I had quite mild t for several years then a couple of scary loud increases just over a year ago. I'm kind of used to it now although it does really get to me some days and I cannot imagine putting up with it forever. I was on the ANM clinical trial which cost me about 1000gbp on travel (they did not refund expenses) and I also did three weeks of HBO which involved travel and staying in hotels. Cost about another 1k gbp total.

Thanks a lot for the info that you provide about your unit and congrats on the gains you have experienced - I hope these continue. I think now that LLLT may have been a better bet for me than HBO when my increase was acute, but there were less positive reports back then to draw on in decision making.

 

I like the idea of a homemade laser. But just not for tinnitus. Atleast not as the first project.
What i would suggest u to do instead, if u really wonna play with this stuff and get some experience, is to make some simple lasers with multiple diodes for treating skin/wounds or maybe find some wawelength that goes deeper inside the tissue (IR) to treat joint sorness.
Cuz there u can see/feel results pretty fast and then u can go from there maybe.
Youtube is again your friend in this case.

Wauw...i dident think ppl did these kind of trials unless the had really bad constant tinnitus.
But yaa..i can understand now how u could burn that amount of money now.
To me this confirms why its more likely LLLT will work in the end when these drugs dont.
Cuz LLLT will improve your hearing slowly and by then cure your tinnitus, which i dont think is the point of those drugs right?
Its of my understanding that the dont care about peoples hearing and that the only focus on switching of the tinnitus?

Your welcome and thanks.
Im just trying to give something back, since the info in here help me alot back when i got this really high scary tinnitus.
So yaa...i also hope the progress continues and i actually see no reason why it wouldent.
Cuz up until now, all that Hansi wrote on his blog, have happened to me also, within the same timeframe.
I actually had some faster results when it came to losing some of the sounds because i got some high powered treatment right away, where as Hansi started out with the much weaker homelaser.
So what he experienced in 6 weeks, i saw that happen to some extend already within the first 5 days.
But if u are in no rush getting rid of your tinnitus, i suggest u wait buying anything and see how it goes for me and Fernando.
Fernando did do stemcell though. So tuff to say what is working i think. But i will keep posting updates and new audiograms along the way.
Next audiogram is in less then a month and is from a ENT i went to here in Malta before going to wilden.
So thoses two are gonna be interesting to compare. Cuz the two Wilden did on me showed a clear improvement, even if u cant tell for sure.
But if the next audiogram shows the same picture, them im inclined to believe something positive def. is going on and that a reduction in the tinnitus is just a matter of time.
Well...getting rid of some of the sounds is already a reduction ofcourse.
But im talking about the high pitch baseline tinnitus obv. and that one has not been reduced....and yet again it have. Cuz now i have good days or hours during a day with pretty low volume tinnitus, where as before it was just constant bad.
I have noticed a slight change in the frequency of the tinnitus and that it at times seams thinner.
And this is also told to be a step in the right direction, before the volume starts going down for good.
Will just have to be patience and wait and see.

 

@Nick J., you may well be right in the caution you express about what gets pointed in our ears. It seems one pays a heavy premium for the professional lasers eg. those sold by Dr Wilden, but maybe it is worth it.

My suspicion is that you and Fernando Gil are getting better results than I might because you are applying the laser treatment while still in the acute stage at least as regards a major increase. From what I have gathered, after a while the tinnitus gets ingrained in our brains and is harder to shift. So an improvement is possible but there will probably always be some T left, if it has had the chance to become chronic. Even Hansi did not shift it all I think, although I have not come across any info about how he is doing recently. Anyway, I hope I am wrong about this point.

 

@Nick J.
Good to know you on the right track. The low frequencies will go fast, the problem then is the high.
But nice is working.

Yesterday was my best day ever, today it went up again but not as much as before th SC. Today had a few spikes, things that didn´t happen in a wille. Those are good news, same as ATEOS ad after the SC.

Just a high T for a few seconds.and then disapear.

Fernando

 

Its def. a heavy price to pay in the moment.
But when u start to think about the alternative which is hearingaid when u go talk to ANY ENT, then i think its a very small price.
1. U improve your hearing with LLLT. Hearingaid makes it worse!
2. U "hopefully" get to avoid having the inconvenience to deal with those blocks on your ears the rest of your life.
3. If LLLT works for u, then u will be likely to help others close to u and the MLS has a lifetime of 10.000 hours.
Thats anoug for treatment of 4 ppl for about 2 years each or even more!


From my research on forums, studies done with LLLT, ect. Then LLLT works almost just as well for old as to new tinnitus.
Obv. U always want to start any healing or treatment as fast as possible in regards to all injuries.
But Wilden told me the inner earcells are extremly robust and even if the might not work and seems dead, u can still wake them up by providing LLLT.
My hope is that i minimum restore my hearing and low tone tinnitus to the point before my acute state 2 month ago.
Cuz back then, it was very easy to live with compared to now, even if i back then thought it could be irretating at times.
But im going ALL IN on this process now and i will give all it takes for the next couple of years and see how fare i can take it.
That means getting high dose LLLT and other frequencies from clinics like Wilden or Anna in Oslo once in a while, mixed with home treatment every day and maybe even buying more cheaper devices with other frequencies, just to try and "cover as much ground" as possible.
Maybe even buy one from u, when u have got the skill to put something together

 

Yes i can see the improvement on Wildens audiogram in the low tones. That was very fast and if LLLT can improve the low tones, then there should be no reason at all, why the high tones wont follow. Its gonna take alot more time like we both know. But that time is gonna be all worth it.
I cant wait until my next audiogram by the ENT here in Malta. If that shows the same graf as the last one at Wilden or maybe even better..oh man!
Cuz u always have this thing back in your mind, that Wilden might have faked it, to prove his treatment works. The same doubt i remember ATEOS talked about when he was there.

Thats amazing! So happy for u...
I cant wait for that kind of results myself.
But it would have been better news for me if u havent got SC. Cuz its hard to point a finger now at what is the reason of the two for the improvement u have.
But Obv. u dont care about that, as long as u are getting better and who can blame u!

How long ago did u get your first treatment at Wilden??
U forgot to answer me in previous post.

 

First day was on 16th June
Only 5 trenaments.

You right, now we will never know if i´m better due to SC or LLLT, maybe the two together is even better. I don´t know.

Just doing everything I can to try to take this out of my head.

See ya

 

Okay...so there seams to be a red line here.
Both u and ATEOS started getting really good results around the 4 month mark.
Thats not much time in my mind.
This means i should start seeing (hopefully) some similar results around the end of Janury next year.

The 2 hours ATEOS is doing each day...is that split up in 1 hour on each ear??
And do u know if its done in one session each day or if its split up in two maybe?
Cuz im doing 40min. every 12 hours at the moment.

 

For those interested in LLLT testimonials, I am releasing parts of the e-mail correspondence I have had with another LLLT "user". The information is from the Australian girl, Rebecca, who also has/had a blog on LLLT and a youtube video.

As can be seen, a fair amount of therapy is required to get results. Possibly one reason why LLLT has a questionable reputation is that people give up too soon. It would of course also help if there were more conclusive studies done. Needless to say...

 

Here is a presentation from the GenVec clinical trial (handled by Novartis) which is currently evaluating gene therapies to regrow inner ear hair-cells (equivalent to the natural process found in fish and birds).

On page 22 and 23, it is listed that a 20db-hearing improvement at any frequency, or a 10db improvement at two different frequencies, is considered meaningful.

So GenVec would not consider my improvement "minimal".

Something I already know, of course.

 

well come back

 

This article is in danish. But the product u all might know.
Its says Q10 is very important for the cells ability to produce ATP.
So if u are old and are therefore not produceing anough Q10 in the body anymore, then the cells in your body (inner earcells) may not be stimulated optimal from the use of LLLT! Just a theory.
So this could lead to longer treatment before u start seeing results from LLLT.
I will try useing this supplyment now, along with all the other stuff i "inhale"

http://helsenyt.com/frame.cfm/cms/id=7409/sprog=1/grp=8/menu=3/

 

Q10 might be worth trying in conjunction with LLLT, thanks Nick J.

Could I ask home laser users, do you use safety glasses/goggles? Is it ok not to so long as you do not shine the laser into your eyes?

Also, any updates from @Katarina? Did you start the treatment? Thanks.

 

I have no clue as to when the lasers goes from totally safe and to potentiel dangerous for the eyes.
Only knows the homelasers are not strong anough to do any real damage.
Of course u should not shine the light in your eyes. But if your eyes are closed and u dont look into the beam and some light is pointed for a shjort moment on your eyelids, there should be no danger.
I was treated by Wildens laser which is beaming a 200mv laser on your ears and i dident have to use any glases.

What is the status about u and the use of LLLT since u ask this question?

 

I have ordered a laser module (660nm 50mw, not designed for LLLT) and plan to do some experiments with it to see if it helps for other issues. I am not immediately planning to point it in my ears, but am finding it difficult to pull the trigger on Dr Wilden's 1600 euro offering at this stage, so dipping my toe in the water so to speak.

 

Wauw GREAT!
Plz keep me updated along the way.
As im pretty sure u already know, the 660nm and 50mw is close to Wildens devise and therefore perfect for the ears.
So when u have built this thing, i would still suggest u to point it in your ears. Just go for 40min. In each ear for 3-4 days in a row and remember to point the laser a bit back and down when inside the ear.
The center of the inner ear if u see the ear outside as a clock, is placed about 7-8pm.
After just a few days of use, im pretty sure u are gonna hear how the cells starts waking up inside your ears and the tinnitus starts to go crazy.
Again, this will go away after a day or two if u stop useing it.
But then u will have proof to yourself that this stuff is doing what others are telling in here and then u know what the next move should be....ALL IN on the tinnitus

But what else are u trying to use the laser for if i may ask?
Cuz depending on that, its not certain u are useing the correct wavelength or output.
If u wonna be a little sneaky, u could go to Anna's website (the clinic in Oslo) and write them a mail about the stuff u wonna treat and ask if the treat this kind of issue (the obv. are) and what kind of laser the are useing for this kind of treatment. Cuz u have heard some lasers with specific wavelength can be dangerous and thats why u wonna know...bla bla..

Then im pretty sure the will give u the info u need

 

@Nick J. I will indeed post updates. Yeah, I chose this module 'cos the wavelength was very closer to Dr. W's and the 50mW seemed powerful enough to be likely to have an effect, but not too scary. (The forum for nootropics guys where one of them pointed a laser pointer at his brain and had strange experiences is a warning I have taken onboard).

As well as tinnitus I am blessed with psoriatic arthritis so I have a wealth of stiff joints and bad skin to try the laser on. I want to be really sure there is no burning or any other negative effects before I even think about letting this thing near my ears or brain. It would be encouraging if I got some benefit from these lesser experiments too.

The drawback of what I have ordered (I think; not received it yet) is that it will not fit so easily into my ear as the good doctor's MLS or slim pen device. It comes with a focussing head so hopefully this can be removed. If I can find a workaround and if there are positive signs then the same module can be purchased cheaply in 100mW & 200mW versions.

One thing that does occur to me is that a few folks have tried the Konftec laser and not been very impressed, so there may yet turn out to be some special fairy dust or other magic ingredient that Dr. W sprinkles on his lasers. My experiments may turn out to be foolhardy and I reserve the right to chicken out and buy the certified device (or not) if I don't feel completely comfortable at any stage!

 

I have tried this for a while now, like I posted before, just shining a 50mW laser pointer into the ear (with little nozzle taped to end, to guide into the ear). Does nothing for me. Is not harmful imo.

@Nick J. You say dr.Wilden does it with 200 mW, is that with a small dot like a laser pointer (e.g 5mm diameter), or spread over a larger dot ? I'v read that with 200mW you can light a match. Maybe if it's very focused....

50mW is certainly dangerous if you shine into the eye, even shortly. Even with 5 mW you should not risk long eye exposure.
But pointing on the skin and looking at the dot is not harmful (if the beam doesn't reflect into your eyes).

 

@Matthias thanks, I had forgotten reading your post before but found it now. How long did you persist in total? I wonder what Dr.W's laser does that is different.

Nick J. describes the beam of his laser in post 491 above.
(Edit P.S. - But you asked about Dr. Wilden's, sorry, not paying attention.)

 

But a laserpointer is also a focused beam and if its high powered, then no wonder he felt funny.
Like we talked about earlier, the beam from a tinnitusdevice is unfucused and will not penetrade more then a few cm and even if some of the light should reach the brain, the light is gonna be so weak and spread out, that it (imo) cant really do any harm! But obv. im no expert. This is just what iv been told by Wilden and from searching info on the net.

For stiff joints i think u would want higher power and a IR laser, så it penetrate deeper into the tissue and heats it up. This is how the clinics are treating this stuff from my understanding. But the obv. Knows what the are doing and the dont hold the laser in the same point for very long. The move it around, since u can damage the tissue if u dont.
That is why u want "the right tool for the job" and know how to use it.
For the skin u yet again need another wavelength, cuz u want the light and energy to do its work on the skin and NOT penetrate to deep.
So thats why u might not get the best, if any results with your laser on the stuff u are thinking of try it on.
Althoug Wilden was of the understanding that his laser also could treat joints and so on. But i dont really believe that. Think it was more of a sales trick. Cuz why would clinics then be useing totally different lasers for this?
U might get a result, but its probably gonna take 6 month then to treat a sore joint

About the konftec laser....im not sure why ppl dont like them!
I only remember hansi wrote he tried them and that he felt the healing started back up like with the MLS in the beginning.
But i think he then moved away from useing it in the end.
Maybe these cheap lasers lose there power over time, compared to high quality expensive lasers and therefore ppl quickly feel like nothing is happening anymore.
This is the only reason i can think of. Cuz its not like this is rocketscience or anything.

But dip your feet in the water and then lets see where it leads u

 

From what i know, a focused beam like a laserpointer will not work, since the beam is waaaay to focused for u to hit the inner ear where the haircells are located. This is a tiny organ about 1x1cm (give or take)
So u would need a second device to scan your head and locate the exact spot of this organ and then hold the beam steady for minimum 30min a day every day for minimum 4-6month. (Good luck)
The tinnitus device is made so it spread the light and hit a big area. So u only have to point the beam in the direction of the inner ear and then u wont miss it.
The other thing about a laserpointer vs a tinnitusdevise, is the wavelength.
This is a very important part of this. Depending on wavelength, the light will penetrate low or deep into the body. So if u wonna treat something 2cm within the body and u have a wavelength that penetrates only 0,5cm or maybe is going waaay deeper maybe, then u dont get a good absorption of the light in the cells in the area u wonna treat and then not much is gonna happen.
Cuz u are looking to stimulate cell to make maximum ATP (energi) in a specific area.
Also for reasons not yet understood from what iv been reading, there is just specific wavelength that seems to work better then others when it comes to stimulating the inner ear.

ATEOS knows more about this for sure and can correct me if im wrong.

The 200mW Wilden is useing, is beamed from about 50cm from your ear and covers an area about the palm of your hand. So it stimulates a big area and wont miss anything.
Also the light is flickering. Meaning, is moves around constantly and VERY fast, so the energy is spread out and not doing harm (not sure if that is why though)

A focused beam like a laserpointer is obv. Not good to point directly into the eyes nomatter the power imo.

 

1 month or so... but of course i never know if it hits the cochlea. Never heard any reaction.

Wildens device covers a big spot, as @Nick J. indicates, so he is sure to hit the cochlea.
But then 200 mW over such a big area is not much, just saying.