MDMA (a Component of Ecstacy) Potential for the Treatment of Tinnitus

Discussion in 'Research News' started by tomytl, Mar 9, 2014.

    1. Tom Cnyc

      Tom Cnyc Member

      Location:
      NYC
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Warehouse event after years of enjoying music.
      let me preface this by saying I don't encourage drug use at any regular cadence, and I've only imbibed once.

      Rolling with not give you a permanent increase. Or even a temporary one as the case may be. Jurgen you've had tinnitus for 3 months. It'll get better with time.
       
      • Like Like x 1
    2. Tom Cnyc

      Tom Cnyc Member

      Location:
      NYC
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Warehouse event after years of enjoying music.
      Ecstasy is classically a mix of MDxx chemicals. Most commonly MDMA and MDA, less commonly MDEA. They're all chemically very similar, however MDMA is substantially less neurotoxic than MDA (and less fun also). MDA is also relatively safe btw. Anything that is NOT these chemicals, is not ecstasy at all. It's not a component of it, it IS it. It's like saying cocaine is a component of blow. Anything else shouldn't be there and you can test its purity for very cheap.
       
      • Like Like x 1
    3. RonnieCarzatto
      Cynical

      RonnieCarzatto Member

      Location:
      Canada
      Tinnitus Since:
      Feb 01 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Mild head injury maybe... but who knows...
      I've been reading a lot of articles about these trials in New Zealand. Very fascinating, perhaps a cure is on the horizon, one could hope!
       
    4. Zok

      Zok Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      not sure, likely 10+years
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      don't know maybe loud sounds
      • Informative Informative x 1
    5. DoNotGoGentle

      DoNotGoGentle Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/15 got worse 11/16
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Earbuds, inner ear infection NHL and high frequency loss
      Does anyone think this could help with tinnitus? If so I wonder what long term effects are. But hey if it works who cares!
       
    6. Michael Larsen
      Surfing

      Michael Larsen Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2000
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noice
    7. Biomed

      Biomed Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      Hello,

      A friend of mine recently used MDMA and it greatly reduced his tinnitus, for weeks now. I remember reading about a potential study years ago regarding MDMA and tinnitus, Googled a little and here I am. I've read large parts of this topic and I have quite a bit of experience with MDMA, as well as a degree in bio-chemistry and am now studying medicine. I felt it was necessary to write a post here, because while there is some great information in this topic, there is also some misinformation, as well as a few dangerous questions/suggestions. I'm a firm believer of harm reduction policies regarding drugs, so that's why I'm writing this somewhat lengthy post. I hope you find the time to read it.

      First of all, MDMA is a relatively safe drug. It ranks quite low when comparing it to other drugs. It's addictive potential is also quite low. See this link

      That said, there are some very serious potential dangers when taking MDMA, almost all of which can be prevented when taking the right precautions.

      1. Never mix MDMA with SSRIs, MAOIs or any kind of other anti-depressants. This can cause serotonin syndrome which can be fatal. MDMA releases a lot of serotonin (also dopamine, adrenaline, oxytocin and many more). The combination of anti-depressants and MDMA is potentially lethal, as there could be way too much serotonin released and not broken down. It's also not okay to stop your SSRIs for a day and take MDMA the next. SSRIs have a long-lasting effect, even after use is stopped. I figure most of you who take anti-depressants for your tinnitus know this, but it can't hurt to mention this.

      2. Don't mix MDMA with benzodiazepines. Benzos have a depressing effect on the CNS and MDMA has a stimulating effect. It's almost always a bad idea to combine "uppers" with "downers". See the infamous speedball.

      3. You should always test your drugs! You can, legally, purchase testing kits online. These are reagent tests, which change color based on the drug that is in your sample. Scrape a bit off of the pill or crystal, pour some reagent on it and the color will tell you the main component of the drug. Key word: main. If your compound is 90% MDMA and 10% speed, it will color perfectly positive for MDMA. It is impossible to detect small impurities with a reagent test. If you live in Switzerland, The Netherlands or Spain, you are in luck, there are testing services available. As mentioned, you can send samples to Energy Control in Spain, but it'll cost 50 euro. While it is true MDMA was almost always mixed with other drugs in the past, this is no longer the case. New routes for synthesis have been found and this has caused a flood of MDMA. Prices have dropped by massive amounts and purity has gone up, as well as doses per pill. In The Netherlands, 92% of all pills sold as XTC contain only MDMA. That said, The Netherlands is probably the best place for XTC production, whereas in the United States MDMA is often methylone or other drugs. So there are still impure pills/powders being sold, but the relative amount of these has greatly gone down.

      4. It is recommended you put some effort into finding a good source for your MDMA. Do not trust strangers or even friends that have "good stuff". Always test! The most reliable source is still the darknet. I am not going to write a guide on how to use it, that's what Google is for. There are an incredible amount of sellers, many of whom have thousands of transactions and many reviews. Do your research.

      5. Take precautions. I assume most of you would want to try this at home (or are you going to a loud party to cure your tinnitus?), so overheating is not that big of a risk. Don't dress warm and drink a little every once in a while. A glass of water per 1,5h should do it if you are not in a hot environment. Don't drink too much, as MDMA causes the body to produce ADH. This makes you hold water, so when you drink liters of water it can be potentially fatal. This is not an issue if you don't drink incredible amounts. If at all possible, have a sober friend be with you.

      6. A safe dose of MDMA is between 1.0 and 1.5 mg/kg. That means if you weigh 70kgs, you would want to take between 70mg and 105mg of MDMA. This will give you some effects, but nothing overwhelming. It's totally fine to be conservative, although I think doses like 20-30mg are unlikely to produce any effects, also regarding tinnitus.

      7. Don't redose! The neurotoxic potential of MDMA is overrated, but re-dosing MDMA is definitely a bad idea. Take a single dose and leave it at that. Many studies show that single use of MDMA has no ill effects. It is frequent use, with high doses and re-dosing that can cause brain damage. While the effects of brain damage are greatly overstated (thanks war on drugs!), it's definitely possible to hurt your brain. Do not take MDMA more than once every 3 months.

      8. I already said this, but please read and do your research. MDMA can be great and it might be a beautiful experience, that could (potentially) help with tinnitus, but it's not a plaything. High doses of stimulants are lethal, as well as mixing it with any other drugs, such as other stimulants or alcohol. Please be safe and do your research, from proper resources!

      9. MDMA is still illegal. That comes with its own risks. Be careful.

      10. If you are young, please do not take MDMA! A young brain is still developing and the effects of MDMA on the brain could potentially be much more severe. The doses I posted are also for adults, not adolescents. I would wait at least until you are 21 years old, before using MDMA!

      If you would like to read more, websites such as Erowid and the subreddit /r/drugs and /r/MDMA are good sources.

      I feel like I'm intruding a little, but again, I felt it was necessary to post this. Some of you seem interested in doing this and you should be as safe as possible if you decide to. This post isn't meant to encourage anyone, but simply to inform you, so that those of you who might want to use MDMA, can do so safely and with as little harm as possible.

      Be safe and I wish you all the best!
       
      • Genius Genius x 2
      • Informative Informative x 2
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    8. Michael Larsen
      Surfing

      Michael Larsen Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2000
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noice
      There has just been a really interesting post about MDMA, and now it has been deleted :(

      But I still have a copy :)
       
    9. Biomed

      Biomed Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      I'm not sure. When I am logged in I see it, but when I log out it is gone. I probably broke a rule somehow. If at all possible, I could edit the offending part out, but a moderator would have to point out which part that is.
       
    10. Michael Larsen
      Surfing

      Michael Larsen Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2000
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noice
      I can not see why you should have broken some rules, it was REALLY interesting and I will try it
       
    11. Mic
      Buzzed

      Mic Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      -
      An impressive and scientifically correct analysis you made above @Biomed.

      You seem exactly the right person with the right academic competencies and attitude to give discussions a new impulse on this forum.

      Unfortunately I don't have a degree on biomedical sciences but after many hours of research my 'overactive' academic brain was busy with a scientific question that might be a little spark to light up new discoveries... With your analysis of MDMA in mind I would like to ask you this question.

      There are evidence based (scientific) and experience based (patient reports you also can find on this forum) cases in wich tinnitus has been lowered/diminished with certain types of medication. In my research the meds that might have a positive effect are as following:
      • Lidocaine (anaesthetic)
      • Propofol (anaesthetic)
      • Fentanyl (anaesthetic)
      • Retigabine (anti-epileptycum kv7.x)
      • Pramipexole (anti-tremmor)
      • Aripiprazole (anti-psychoticum)
      • Haloperidol (anti-psychoticum)
      • Amantadine (anti-tremmor)
      • And of course MDMA (pro-partying ;)
      In my search for a common denominator for the mechanism of action of the meds above I found leads for possible intaraction with dopaminergic and serotonergic receptors.

      Now... I am wondering if it is possible to set up a cross reference database search on receptor interactions of the meds above to find possible common denominators as new targets for new meds?

      As a person with the right profession for this: Do you think this is realistic and achievable??

      @admin: let the man post his analysis (with corrections of course if needed). It could be very helpful for many!!
       
    12. Biomed

      Biomed Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      I did mention the best way to source, which I would suspect is the offending part. Not sure however, as it is not in the nettiquette that I read. Unless this is considered "offensive content", also possible.

      I assume a moderator will weigh in at some point :)

      Thank you for pointing it out though. I would've never known it was deleted, since it is still there for me when I am logged in.
       
    13. Biomed

      Biomed Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      Hello Mic,

      First off, I'm not an expert on tinnitus, far from it. I also haven't specialised in neurobiology or anything of the sort.

      That said, I think the research you propose is an interesting and clever idea, but in my opinion it is too ambitious. It's hard to explain without getting very in depth about chemistry, but I'll try.

      The short version of the problem is that it's "too much". These drugs work on so many cells in so many different ways, that it'd be impossible to control for what is going on where. On top of that you have the human body working its "dark magic" (the liver converting drugs into other drugs or metabolites, other molecules interacting with the drugs), causing all kinds of problems, from a study point of view. Then you'd have to control for all the participants, their history, individual medical history, background, other diseases, etc. Some of the medication you list has a partially unclear mechanism of action, so we simply don't know what's going on in every case. On top of that, various drugs you list "do the same thing", but have a totally different mechanism of action. Propofol works on the GABA system and blocks sodium channels, fentanyl is an opioid, Propofol is also a good example of a medication where new findings about its pharmacology are coming to light, that we were previously unaware of. Simply said, it'd be an immense study, that would cost incredible amounts of money and would require a way too big amount of people.

      An option would be to do it by computing, so looking at all the shapes, sizes and qualities of all the receptors and the molecules of the drugs and looking for comparisons, but again, we have a lot of gaps that need to be filled before you'd be able to do that. We still don't know the exact structure of so many receptors.

      The stereochemistry of receptors and molecules is a huge field, with more questions than answers. My bio-chemistry spent half the semester saying "why that is, we don't really know yet". These can be really be incredibly small details. Take thalidomide. One of the enantiomers is responsible for birth defects, the other one is probably inactive. These are chiral molecules, meaning they are mirror images of each other, like your hands. One causes birth defects. Another example is amphetamine and methamphetamine. One is much more potent and addictive than the other. The difference is a single methyl group. (hence methamphetamine). A carbon and three hydrogens and you have a totally difference substance.

      It'd be impossible to track all the stuff that is going on, what receptor it is working on, what metabolites are being made, where they go and what they interact with and cross-reference all of that, while controlling your entire patient population.

      Therefore it's easier simply try drug A on two groups of people, one being a control group and seeing what happens. You could definitely be onto something, as scientists of course speculate just like you do. "There is something common among these things, what could it be? Let's try B to exclude C!"

      Another option, which is interesting and also likely, but unfortunately makes things more difficult and especially time-consuming, is that they work in different ways. It isn't impossible for different kinds of "pathways" to work on the same disease somehow. A good example are the various anti-depressives we have (of which the mechanism is also unclear quite often...)

      Hope that answered your question somewhat. I apologise about the length, but it's hard to be complete and accurate, while keeping it readable, but also not over-simplifying things.
       
    14. Bill Bauer
      No Mood

      Bill Bauer Member Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      February, 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
      Are you concerned about giving your home address to one of the sellers on the darknet? If they are ever arrested, your address might be found by the authorities... That MDMA could also be discovered at the Post Office. Or am I missing something?
       
    15. Biomed

      Biomed Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      That is indeed a concern. I won't say it hasn't happened in the past (well, not to me personally of course).

      There are ways to prevent this though, such as encrypting your address. Reputable (and smart) sellers will decrypt the address, print the sticker and then it's gone. You'd need the password to decrypt the message again. You can also send messages that can only be read once and self-destruct. Most private messages aren't kept for more than 2 weeks on the average market.

      But yes, careless people have not encrypted and address lists have been found.

      All that said, I've never heard of a small time buyer being caught like this. The police usually does bother with people who buy small amounts. It's too much effort when you have a list of 5000 buyers to go after a guy who ordered a gram of weed once.

      And you cannot open mail unless you have probable cause.

      Again, I don't see any rules against posting this kind of information, but if an admin could clarify if this is allowed, I'd be very happy. I can understand if this goes too far and it's probably beyond the scope of this forum. I don't want to encourage anything, but it's better people are safe and informed. If it goes too far, this message could simply be replaced with "please consult Google :)".
       
    16. Bill Bauer
      No Mood

      Bill Bauer Member Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      February, 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
      Thank you!
       
    17. Mic
      Buzzed

      Mic Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      -
      Thanks for your very informative explanation. (y)

      Big data computing is exactly the way to go. The complexity you are describing is however due to the absence of interdisciplinary cooperation. As you also describe drug discovery nowadays is stooled on the same stone age principle of random trails and coincidental discoveries (without knowing what the exact mechanism of action of a drug is).

      With more interdisciplinary cooperation (IT specialists, engineers etc.) one can work on computing solutions and reverse engineering biological pathways to speed up cure discovery....

      Now let's hope a bright mind from one of the Big Pharma companies picks this up for a sophisticated approach of cure discovery...
       
    18. mikejohnno
      Thinking

      mikejohnno Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      April 21st 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Clubbing
      Might give this a try next week. I have noise induced mild tinnitus and a few hours of happiness and silence would be golden.
       
      • Like Like x 3
    19. Biomed

      Biomed Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      I'm on the fence concerning this approach. I definitely think it can help and it's for sure a route we should explore. I'm proud to help out Folding@home for example. However, there are some big names who think Big Data is like looking for a needle in a haystick, by adding more hay. There's a lot of issues in medical research, that I really can't get into without hijacking this thread. If you're interested in this, I'd suggest looking up John Ioannidis. He's an interesting character who definitely gives a new perspective on medical research and he says, that at this time, big data isn't useful at all. I don't agree with all his points, but in my opinion there's always a middle road to two sides of an argument and he does view things from a interesting angle.
       
    20. JurgenG
      Approved

      JurgenG Member Benefactor Advocate

      Location:
      Belgium
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud noise exposure / headphone accident maybe?
      Thanks for your time explaining MDMA, and making us aware of the risks.
      Do you think the combination with alcohol might give it a negative reaction?
       
    21. xabier

      xabier Member

      Location:
      Bilbao
      Tinnitus Since:
      october 2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Sudden deafness/acoustic trauma
      I PROVE IT MANY WEEKS AGO MIXED WITH ALCOHOL... AND MY T WAS VERY QUIET UNTIL THE NEXT DAY...

      Normally the alcohol makes it louder to me...Sorry about my english
       
    22. mikejohnno
      Thinking

      mikejohnno Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      April 21st 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Clubbing
      Didn't really make much of a difference. I was in a club as well and I kept going outside for breaks and checking my ear plugs.

      I did ketamine as well and Ketamine make it louder for a bit. But then it was normal the day after and you just gotta remember it will be.
       
    23. JurgenG
      Approved

      JurgenG Member Benefactor Advocate

      Location:
      Belgium
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud noise exposure / headphone accident maybe?
      Did you not notice any effect with the MDMA alone? Also is XTC not the same active substance?
       
      • Good Question Good Question x 1
    24. mikejohnno
      Thinking

      mikejohnno Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      April 21st 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Clubbing
      Honestly, no not particularly. At the time, I had just begun to reach the stage where I could walk around outside and not hear it, but inside in a quiet room I could hear a hiss. At the club with earplugs on MDMA, I could only hear the same hissing when outside in a relatively quiet area with earplugs. I took ear plugs out as well to check. It was virtually the same.

      When I got home later I thought it was perhaps slightly slightly louder when I put fingers in ears, but here I am, a festival and three club nights later, and the noise is quieter than it has been since it started.

      I don't know about XTC or about substances. Ket was a different night.
       
    25. Rings-a-Bell

      Rings-a-Bell Member

      Location:
      Barbados
      Tinnitus Since:
      April 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Accoustic Trauma
      • Funny Funny x 2
    26. Jomo

      Jomo Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      9/4/16
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      going for a rim shot on the snare drum.
      smh...the things people will do for relief lol
       
      • Agree Agree x 1
      • Funny Funny x 1
    27. JurgenG
      Approved

      JurgenG Member Benefactor Advocate

      Location:
      Belgium
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud noise exposure / headphone accident maybe?
      So I went to a festival a couple of days ago, I took half (apparently a powerful) xtc-tablet. Because I don't really remember much from the experience itself.. Just the start and the end and bits. When I went to sleep I heard my T spiking all over the place, the days that followed it lowered but it's still a bit triggered.

      Did anyone have a similiar experience where their T spiked after XTC/MDMA?
      I was really freaked for my hearing during the experience and was quite far from the speakers with -25 dB peltors while the music was probably around 95 dB for a couple of hours, so noise wise I should be fine, right?
       
    28. Bill Bauer
      No Mood

      Bill Bauer Member Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      February, 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
      Our ears have been compromised. Things that are ok for healthy ears will cause temporary or even permanent spikes:
       
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    29. JurgenG
      Approved

      JurgenG Member Benefactor Advocate

      Location:
      Belgium
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud noise exposure / headphone accident maybe?
      Well, I hope it's not because of the sound. To be sure I avoided all the rest of the music of the whole festival.
      But around two hours, well protected in music around 95 dB should be doable for someone 6 months after a mild trauma.. I thought.
      I am still not sure if I should blame the drugs or the music, the spike settled quickly but it's still a bit higher I think.
       
    30. Biomed

      Biomed Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      I'm not sure about tinnitus, but mixing MDMA with alcohol can give bad reactions. It's not a guarantee and there's definitely people that do enjoy this, but you are at an increased risk to have nausea, anxiety as well as even more reduced inhibition leading to stupid decisions (taking more alcohol and/or MDMA than you should). I'd also wager the neurotoxicity is increased when you mix MDMA with alcohol.

      I wouldn't recommend the combination.
       

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