Coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2 / COVID-19) and Tinnitus

@Ed209, interesting food for thought here.



A study concluded that there was only a 7% difference in the economic hit to regions of the country that locked down hard, compared to regions that basically did almost nothing.

The obvious takeaway is a thing I've said before: lockdowns don't matter, in the US, economically, because even the most severe "lockdowns" we have various places are less restrictive than what a majority of the population is doing out of fear of the virus. But, now we have pretty convincing data to support that. 7% isn't nothing, but it's hardly a sea change.

COVID-19, and people's sense of self-preservation, is what's fireballing the service industry. Not lockdowns.

This isn't a defense of some of the mandates that I have thought are stupid or not science based, but, the idea that stuff is somehow tied to catastrophic financial harm does not seem to withstand the scrutiny of data.

Also, here's a nice, if preliminary, data-based rebuttal to the idea that reopening schools doesn't trigger community spread. It very clearly does, because kids can get and spread COVID-19, a thing we've known decisively for more than half a year.

 

It's interesting for sure, but I'd disagree when it comes to the hospitality sector in this country. In my city alone, I've lost count of the places that have gone under due to the restrictions. Without the lockdown, those places would be still be serving people and they would still be in business. I say this because most people here don't care. If a bar opened today, it would be packed without a doubt. This is the conundrum, though, as that's what the government do not want. There is no answer to this problem, and that is why so many have lost their businesses and livelihoods.

The strain it has put on some industries has resulted in suicides. A notable one is Mick Norcross, the owner of a famous club in Essex, who hanged himself after he lost everything. This is not an isolated incident.

I have also seen a big reduction in my earnings because of the restrictions. At first it was quite alarming, as we had to figure out how we'd pay the mortgage and bills each month. That's what made me start investing again, and that's partly the reason why we are now ok.

I understand what you're saying, though, and what the data you provided suggests. There would have been a huge financial hit without the lockdowns, and that is undoubtedly true.

 

Yeah, and from your post -- the US and UK situations may be quite different. Demographically we are very different in terms of landmass, population centers, etc.

The Illinois / Iowa split is interesting to me because I would expect people in places with generally redder governments to be more in the "don't care" camp. The flipside of that, though, is that even in a lot of "don't care" places, mask use in public did become somewhat common. A friend in Alabama told me that with the exception of an early brief actual period of business restrictions, everything has basically been open but large amounts of people wear masks. Urban areas, where community public spread is likely to be a bigger problem, tend to be more "blue" even in pretty regressive states, and that probably helps.

I don't really think anyone got this right here, on the regulatory side. Cuomo and to a lesser extent De Blasio who were initially lauded for NYC lockdowns, did atrocious stuff like shipping infected patients into nursing homes and killing tons of people. Red state governors killed through inaction and dissemination of unscientific information.

So, places with generally more educated, generally more left-leaning populations have had a lot more mask use, and less spread as a result. I think a lot of it is as simple as that, but it is also certainly true that everyone in my own social circles, locally and not, have essentially been in a self-enforced social quarantine of some kind for a year, and are only now looking at what protocols for coming out of that looks like as we all get vaxx'd up.

 

The lockdowns resulted in major financial losses, bankruptcies, increased government spending that supported corporations but allowed family businesses to fail. But, keep spreading your inaccurate info. People are protesting lockdowns for a reason.

 

What inaccurate info? I just said businesses were closing down left and right in my city and across the UK. I also pointed out that it directly affected my business and my income. I think you need to re-read what I said, Pete.

At the same time, you cannot ignore the fact that even without the lockdowns, there would still have been an economic downturn. It would have been inescapable.

 

There's a big difference between a "downturn" you just speculate on and what one can see with their eyes and read, constantly, which is *directly* due to lockdowns and restrictive COVID-19 measures.

LOCKDOWNS that cause bankruptcies, business closures, layoffs, small business failures (who can't afford to stay shut down) and potential customers and clients who are hindered from going anywhere. These were unnecessary and it's foolish to think you would naturally experience the same economic disaster if the governments did nothing.

So, don't insult my intelligence, Ed. I read your post fine.

 

Where did I say the downturn would be the same? You're just making stuff up now. I've been very vocal about the damage lockdowns have caused to the economy, but that goes without saying. We are all very aware of it. However, you have never acknowledged the seriousness of COVID-19. My mom just lost a friend to it, so that makes 10 people who I know to have died from it. I was hospitalised and put on Dexamethasone, blood thinners, and oxygen. It's not "just a flu" as you would put it. It's something that every government had to carefully consider along the all the leading scientific experts.

To say that this would have had no economic impact on its own is absurd. You need to stop listening to the lunatics who live in la-la land and look at the facts.

 

Sweden didn't have a lockdown.

Sweden Saw Lower Mortality Rate Than Most of Europe in 2020, Despite No Lockdown

 

@Ed209, can you answer me one question?

It will be brief because... you know...

I am probably wasting my time... but...

Why aren't those protesters all over the world dropping dead, overwhelming hospitals?

You would call them "super spreaders" right? They aren't wearing masks. They are pretty packed together in huge groups. As someone who thinks it's dangerous not to practice strict COVID-19 measures, how do you explain that?

 

You clearly haven't read any of my posts. I was against the continuation of the lockdown in the UK because I saw a significant buildup of other problems, namely, higher suicide rates, more domestic abuse issues, an increase in child poverty and malnutrition, people losing their houses and livelihoods, etc, etc.

I still don't know if I was right or wrong (probably wrong), but when that second wave came, they could hardly sit there and do nothing. The potential for a catastrophic situation was building as each day passed, so I feel in the end, the government had no choice but to lockdown again.

You are working on the notion that this is an easy situation to navigate.

As to your question about protestors, they are idiots, and the hospitals were overwhelmed. This put the whole health care system under immense pressure in the UK. People coming in off the streets with life-threatening problems were also at a much higher risk of dying; this is the knock-on effect it has. COVID-19 is not just about the death toll either - although restrictions have helped in that regard - there are long-term ramifications to consider as it can cause many serious problems.

I stayed at home and I still ended up with type 1 respiratory failure, gasping for air. If you've never been in that situation, then you have no idea how bad it is. It's easy to criticise the world with a hard rhetoric, whilst sitting in your armchair relying on false information. It's entirely different when your decisions and opinions directly effect the lives of the entire population.

 

Thanks for your reply but that didn't answer my question. I will ask it again.

If you require, I can list all the cities and countries these protests occurred in. It's still happening. If you want to omit the UK, fine. It doesn't matter. But, there was a recent protest in the UK. So hospitals became overrun with protesters according to you?

Do you have even one source that mentions the majority of patients were from that particular protest or any protest? Surely, you understand that I am wondering if there is any connection?

I did read your posts so I realize what you think about the lockdowns and I know you think the protesters are stupid. I also know about your hospitalization that you claim was COVID-19 related. I did wish you back to a speedy recovery, remember?

But, as someone who believes the official narrative, I am interested in your explanation why lockdown protesters are not getting COVID-19 in droves, overwhelming hospitals now etc., why there is no connection anywhere (if one is in the UK, where is the source, where is the report)?

If most patients were part of a protest, that would be most intriguing but the fact is, there isn't any.

These protests have been going on for several months but several are very recent:

UK police scuffle with anti-lockdown...

UK Anti-lockdown Protest | Over 30 Arrested In...

Covid: Arrests during anti-lockdown protests in London

Why aren't these (would you call them...???) "stupid super spreaders" overwhelming hospitals?

Look at how many there are?!?

 

It comes in waves, Pete. Your view of this is far too simplistic and does not account for short-term immunity amongst pockets of the population. Just because you're at a protest doesn't mean you're guaranteed to catch COVID-19. I worked at a distribution centre at the end of last year and was surrounded by hundreds of people, shoulder to shoulder at times. I was there for 7 weeks and didn't catch so much as a cold. Two months later, our entire family caught it, as well as my wife's sisters and parents whilst we were in lockdown.

I'm not sure what what this proves or why the protests matter so much to you. The virus will spread through social contact of any kind. It doesn't care if you're protesting, dancing, having sex or eating your dinner. The data that's out there overwhelmingly verifies this. If you still believe it's fake, even now, then there's no helping you. At this point, it's like me trying to convince you that pigs really can't fly.

Claim? It was verified via 3 tests and a test X-ray.

As someone who believes the official narrative ? I'm sorry, but that made me laugh. What other narrative is there? It's pretty straight forward at this point. I genuinely feel sorry for all those who have been manipulated by fake news and misinformation. If you're getting all this via the news, which you claim you don't read/watch, then how do you know which protestors became ill and which ones didn't? You have no idea. Are protestors a different species or something? What's your fascination with them?

Do you believe tinnitus is real?

I think its all a lie that was created by the government and elites in an attempt to control us. Why aren't most of the people who attend concerts and nightclubs getting tinnitus? It makes no sense, which is how I know it's fake. Why don't all my friends have it? We all went to the same nightclubs and concerts. It's just a noise anyway, so who cares. It won't kill you.

The paragraph above is how you sound to me when you talk about COVID-19. Misinformed and a bit stupid.

 

Most people's immune systems are strong enough to fight COVID-19, you just have to teach people not to fear — when you send that word from your mind to your immune system it goes into hiding, defence cells hide here — I'm not taking sides here — I researched immune systems and the power of the mind for four years. Jabs are good if people will have them for the rest of their lives, immune systems will become dependent on them.

 

I didn't fear it at all. I've already had it once, and I worked in an environment surrounded by hundreds, and it never crossed my mind at any point. I was happy to be earning some money to make up for lost earnings. My immune system is also good. I never catch the flu and I'm very rarely ill.

Unfortunately, the coronavirus doesn't care how positive you are. The reaction one will have is ultimately unknown, but there will be elements of genetics, diet, general well-being, etc, in regards to how one deals with it. A healthy, positive thinking person, can potentially be put into a coma by this, and could ultimately die. You can also be left with scarred lungs, a damaged heart, nerve damage, kidney damage, tinnitus, hearing loss, etc.

It's dangerous to tell people that positive thinking will safeguard them. It won't. If you catch it, it's pot luck as to what will happen to you.

 

It's not always about positive thinking and losing the fear word - it's about keeping your 'vibes' strong and healthy - vibrational energy, more time in nature, laughter, gratitude, being kind to people - less time with stressful messages online, immune systems will respond - this is my opinion, no one has to believe it...

 

Sorry that's just a load of horseshit. You probably believe in those "energy healers" too...

The immune system and COVID-19 wreaking havoc in your body has nothing to do with any "vibrational energy".

Your advice is dangerous.

 

I am an energy healer - researched it and became one, I got every cold/flu going for 50/60 years, not anymore - and power of the mind, immune systems...

Have a good day, keep those vibes up, keep smiling...

 

Boy oh boy, do I disagree with that. But I guess I don't need to go into any details, right?

 

The jabs are experimental and unproven. There's already reports of harm caused by them.

 

I think the same applies to COVID-19, to be fair.

 

The thing is with all these variant bugs attacking us - they attack the weak, and generally the youngsters fight them easier, some don't even know they had the bug - and generally if we remove the fear that was created by all this - then most 30s to 60s and older will be strong enough to fight it...

I delivered 500 Stay Strong posters to shops in 2020 - shopkeepers loved them - health professionals should have used national TV to advise people instead of wash your hands to happy birthday, then jab em up...

But right now they are telling youngsters on the radio we listen to - we look forward to clubs being open again - just waiting because they haven't actually said this yet - oh get your jab here first, and this more than likely will be for a long time, many years, then kids in the future will say how did this happen, now our immune systems are dependent on the jab every year - could anybody have stopped this happening, and what's going in the jab this year.

I remind people reading these are the kids of the future, your descendants - people of the future....

 

In what way do you disagree though, Lane? If someone gets COVID-19, what happens next is largely out of that person's control. One cannot determine the viral load they are exposed to, and one cannot alter their genetics.

Once infected, there is no way of knowing what will happen. It's been found that it can cause tinnitus and ear-related issues in up to 1 in 7 people. That's just one example. We already know what else it can do. If one turns out to be unlucky, like my mom and I were, then it's onto damage control. That's all you can do. Limit the damage, and hope it doesn't get worse.

As you already know, I was loaded up on vitamin C and D, and in my case, it didn't help at all. Dexamethasone seemed to help, and oxygen certainly did.

My lungs still haven't recovered and they may never be the same again. I have no idea. I still have a problem with my hands and wrists as well.

If people on this site are concerned about their ears, then my advice would be not to catch it.

 

With all the COVID-19 case numbers out there, how many have got tinnitus?

1 out of 7? That's a ridiculously high number.

People who get colds and the flu often have spikes or exacerbated tinnitus symptoms but they rarely permanently worsen. Also, people who don't have tinnitus typically don't get it from the flu or colds.

Medications have been known to cause or contribute to tinnitus, however. But, people are already talking about vaccines and possible effects on tinnitus. An experimental vaccine with little to no trials and testing plus no knowledge of what may follow is a bigger concern compared to 'COVID-19 affects" if you ask me. There's documented side effects of vaccines.

But, everyone has to make their own decisions.

 

I agree. It seems high to me also. These numbers are the result of a systemic review of the available data. More studies are needed to prove this.

You can read more here:

In the first few months of the pandemic, a rapid systematic review of COVID-19 and hearing difficulties revealed a possible link between COVID-19 and audio-vestibular symptoms (hearing loss, tinnitus and vertigo). However, both the quantity and quality of the early studies were low. Now that the pandemic has been with us for over a year, more studies have been published and researchers have been able to estimate how common these symptoms might be.

My colleagues and I have identified about 60 studies that report audio-vestibular problems in people with confirmed COVID-19. Our analysis of the pooled data, published in the International Journal of Audiology, reveals that 7%-15% of adults diagnosed with COVID-19 report audio-vestibular symptoms. The most common symptom is tinnitus (ringing in the ears) followed by hearing difficulties and vertigo.

https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discov...innitus-and-vertigo--new-study-confirms-link/​

The risks associated with COVID-19 causing or worsening tinnitus is orders of magnitude more than any of the vaccines.

 

The author is a Professor of Audiology. This is the main conclusion in their studies, in the article:

"Reports of audio-vestibular symptoms in confirmed COVID-19 cases are few, with mostly minor symptoms, and the studies are of poor quality."

That isn't very convincing.

How do you link or connect a COVID-19 infection with sudden tinnitus problems? Did they totally eliminate the possibility of acoustic trauma? What time frame of initial discovery of "COVID-19 infection" and hearing problems and/or tinnitus is there? Does it vary or is there a pattern? Those studies sound inconclusive to me. They also need more background information and tinnitus experts (researchers?).

I haven't read of any ENTs or Audiologists who can do anything about anyone's tinnitus, let alone a Professor. They are suddenly experts on COVID-19 and can identify a link between COVID-19 and tinnitus based on someone's first person account?

People are believing COVID-19 does anything to people. The virus has a mind of its own and is particularly malicious? /s :-/

 

I believe most of the data was taken from patient surveys. They discovered a high ratio of hearing-related problems in those who were hospitalised with COVID-19.

But they are experts and it's their job to look for these things. They will have read reams of information about this and will be fully aware that the data needs further investigation. That is why they are running a year-long study, using controls, to see how strong the link really is. You criticise their expertise, but then you are claiming all kinds of things based on nothing. It's a bit hypocritical.

Here are two excerpts that get right to the point:

What is lacking are carefully conducted clinical and diagnostic studies that compare a sample of people who tested positive for COVID-19 and a sample of non-COVID controls. To that end, we are leading a year-long study to investigate the long-term effect of COVID-19 on the audio-vestibular system among people who have been previously in hospital with the virus.

A recent study led by Professor Munro, suggested that more than 13 per cent of patients who were discharged from a hospital reported a change in their hearing.

Ibrahim Almufarrij said: “Though the evidence is of varying quality, more and more studies are being carried out so the evidence base is growing. What we really need are studies that compare COVID-19 cases with controls, such as patients admitted to hospital with other health conditions.

This is not true. The evidence-base behind many of the problems it causes is strong. If you consider suffocating people to death malicious, then yea, it is.

 

Patient surveys? People on here are often unsure of what caused spikes or what they can expose their ears to. Trying to find definitive reasons or explanations isn't easy.

As for COVID-19 (and any connection or attributing factor), you need to take a test to know you have it.

If someone got tinnitus, was exposed to acoustic trauma then took a COVID-19 test or took the test just prior, how would you assess what caused it? People get a sniffle, get scared it's COVID-19 and visit a testing clinic. :-/

As for the "experts," re-read your own citations. "Not enough data" and "more testing needed." They don't sound definitive or certain at all.

They are Audiologists, not virologists nor epidemiologists. They are even limited in their scientific knowledge of tinnitus and being able to evaluate any scientific links or affect from "COVID-19" which has controversial questions of its own (regardless of whether you agree or not) provokes skepticism.

Like the experts admit, there's not enough info and they can't make any definite conclusions.

 

A lot of data is collected this way. Constructing a robust survey that has scientific integrity is actually a really difficult thing to do.

Tinnitus Talk has contributed to science via patient surveys, for example.

It's based on the timing of someone acquiring a hearing disorder and them being exposed to SARS-CoV-2. They would almost certainly have a question/s covering loud noise exposure. You are right, however, correlation does not equal causation which is precisely why they have launched a year-long study to investigate further.

I would say it's more likely that there could be a link to the drugs that are given as treatments. That could be clouding the data as well as a few other things. There has to be enough evidence to suggest it's worth investigating and spending money on, though. Studies aren't cheap.

I'm not sure if you actually read my posts. I've already stated this. Science is a world where knowledge and facts evolve and change as we learn more about a given situation. At this point, there is evidence to suggest that COVID-19 is not good for your ears, just like many other viruses that are out there.

This is a ridiculous statement. They are scientists working within the relevant field of audiology - since this issue involves the ears. Go on PubMed, search for Kevin Munro, and have a look at how many papers he has authored. He is not studying the virus, he is studying the effects of it.

I'd disagree with your last point. Once a probable cause is found, and there is strong evidence to back it up, then it becomes another thing to add to the list along with noise exposure, ototoxic drugs, physical trauma, etc, etc. How do you know that exposure to noise causes tinnitus, for example?

 

The third wave is currently sweeping across Europe, and France is being hit particularly hard. Hospitals are overrun again as well as intensive care units. One of the primary strains is the Kent variation. I think it's pretty much inevitable that the UK will see a third wave as well. It's never-ending.

The problem is that we can't vaccinate the world quick enough. There's a risk we could push the virus into small pockets of the population (where it can no longer spread), and this could force it to mutate far more quickly. Who knows what we'll end up with.

 

Reading this last page with one person on ignore would be pretty hilarious, if it weren't also a perfect illustration of how fundamentally broken communication is in 2021 and the degree to which huge corporate entities have done a really good job programming a lot of people to be reflexively defensive of ideas which are both untrue, and directly against their own interests to continue to believe.

I saw that Senegal is going to be lucky to vaccinate 30% of their HCWs by the end of the year and some other African nations aren't expecting meaningful amounts of vaccine until ~2023, so, we're already there. This is endemic and it will likely continue to mutate to a point where we'll be playing cat and mouse for a loooooong time.

On the other hand, if you're in the minority of the world lucky enough to live in the EU/UK/US and are able to get the good vaccines, so far there isn't too much concern about escape variants: your vaxx will confer some meaningful protection and also, probably keep R values down below 1 if enough of the population is vaccinated. Boosters will be relatively quickly approved, and if you live some place that has vaccine access already, congrats, you'll have booster access.

The main bummer for EU/UK/US success in this will be anti-vaxx sentiment; the main bummer for the rest of the world is the timeframe that it's going to take to get vaccines produced and sent out.

This isn't going anywhere anytime soon, that seems very obvious. On the other hand, I expect Summer 2022 in the US to look a lot more like Summer 2019 than Summer 2020. This year is going to be a weird mix, with people trying to navigate sketchy early information about vaccinated transmission, long COVID-19 in small children, etc. I don't see our own behavior changing very much until the end of 2021, but we're also in a situation where being absolutely locked down and fortified is pretty easy, just socially kind of a bummer.