Is LLLT for Tinnitus by Dr. Wilden a Scam?

Discussion in 'Alternative Treatments and Research' started by Henry1492, Mar 10, 2016.

tinnitus forum
    1. Henry1492

      Henry1492 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2006
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Not sure
      IS LLLT FOR TINNITUS BY DR. WILDEN A SCAM?

      I started my discussion as a new thread because many people at tinnitus talk approach this subject in the dark with preconceived notions. Many people want to convince themselves that there is a “magical cure” in the application of an instrument that Dr. Wilden promotes. Yet to this date, Dr. Wilden has avoided any involvement in clinical studies, which can easily test and determine effectiveness of treatment. Therefore, I am asking for any solid proof that "LLLT" therapy works significantly better than placebo.

      I was in correspondence with Dr. Lutz Wilden for several weeks about 10 months ago. I asked him repeatedly for medical proof (clinical studies, random trials, etc.) that indicated his alternative method indeed does work. Dr. Wilden talked a lot about clinical research that he did with his colleagues, but failed to furnish any degree of proof.

      A friend of mine from Eastern Europe visited Dr. Wilden, he paid him lots of money for Laser Treatments but received no relief. My friend met about half a dozen other patients at Dr. Wilden’s clinic. He contacted all of them one year later and no one felt better about their Tinnitus.

      Personally speaking, Dr. Wilden reminds me of a well-known Israeli scammer Dr. Shemesh, therefore I decided not to give my hard-earned money to another con artist.

      All scammers have one thing in common: they fail to publish any “statistical findings” and hide their “therapy protocol” from legitimate clinical research. They absolutely know that their “treatment” does not work, but they greed for the money anyway. Yes, they do know that they are stealing money!!! All of them appear as “charismatic, kind and compassionate” – of course only if you pay them.

      The most commonly used excuses to explain why legitimate clinical research has not yet been done for their treatments are:

      1) They claim to use “natural ingredients” which – they say - do not need research because “they are natural, not chemical” (Herbs, Vitamins, Minerals, Amino Acids, Enzymes, etc. for Tinnitus). In reality, however, any substance, produced in a laboratory or in nature does have a chemical formula and its efficacy can be proved or disproved by double blind placebo study.

      2) The “hearing aid industry” does not support my research; expressed by Dr. Wilden. The Israeli Army has “classified my treatment data as a military secret”; expressed by Dr. Shemesh. In reality, however, there is no need for hearing aid industry to support the research of Dr Wilden. Dr. Wilden should publish his ideas in peer review journals, and clinical trials will follow without any expense to Dr. Wilden. In addition, the “military secret” excuse is only a lie created by Dr. Shemesh – Tinnitus therapy has never been classified:

      https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/low-level-laser-therapy-lllt-for-tinnitus-—-efficacy-debate.7650/page-11#post-88700

      3) Both Dr. Wilden and Dr. Shemesh claim they are “too busy helping patients and do not want to waste their precious time to find out whether their therapy indeed works”. In reality, both of them are only too busy scheduling cash-paying patients (customers) and do not want research faculty to determine that their “therapy” is ineffective – no better than placebo. This would ruin their business.


      Many Tinnitus sufferers are emotionally drawn into the fascination about LASER LIGHT ENERGY which is a very complex field with no standard protocols or solid evidence that this therapy does anything for Tinnitus.

      Yet, many helpless people run to Dr, Wilden, like Dr. Shemesh, hoping that the amazing colored rays of light will cure them from anything that bothers them..!

      It's a funny thing about human nature - when people do not fully understand the mechanisms of a medical modality, like Low-Level-Laser, and the manufacturers pump-up miss-leading information on the internet with fake testimonials, then everyone gets on line and they say - "take me I'm next - here is my money."

      My conversation exchange with Dr. Wilden (DR. W) is below, copied and pasted with my questions in italics. Make your own judgments!
      …………………………………………………………………………………………………..............................................................................

      ME: I went through your impressive website. Could you please tell me where I can read about clinical studies comparing your therapy with placebo in double blind study? I checked Medline and found nothing.

      DR. W: Please go for this to www.dasgesundeohr.de and there
      also to the new texts.
      I worked out my therapy in my own office and I published all my
      results over years with the colleagues of the universities.
      Out of this reason I am not in Medline. You have to be convinced
      from my information by comparing them with your individual situation.
      My basic work is published in Pubmed.

      For a more individual advice you are welcome to send to me your audiogram
      and your questioner.


      ME: You told me that you published your results with your colleagues at universities. Please email me the links under which your colleagues proved that your therapy is more potent than placebo. Were there any double blind studies done?

      DR. W: go for this to www.dr-wilden.de
      Until now nobody on the universities is interested on independent study.
      Also behind laser is until now no so strong financial power like behind the hearing aids.

      Please go for this to www.dasgesundeohr.de there to the new texts and see my later
      I wrote to about 52 universities.


      ME: You told me that you published with your colleagues in academia. Please send me links of those articles; they do not have to be a huge clinical trials. I understand that hearing industry is not interested in laser. Your website is impressive, but I cannot find the proof that your method works.

      DR. W: No answer


      ME: Maybe I was not clear enough in the last letter. Let me paraphrase my question:
      When I go on Medline and type "Wilden Tinnitus" I get no results.
      I understand that hearing aid industry might not be interested in laser work, but I wonder why laser industry is not interested.
      Most of all, case reports, medical series or review articles need no funding, you can do them alone. So please send me the links to published case reports, medical series or review articles that you wrote about Laser and Tinnitus.
      I am trying to read them but cannot find them. I must be doing something wrong.

      DR W: all important information I have to give to the public you
      can find on my websites. If you want to have more information
      you have to make for yourself an overview of all the literature
      regarding LLLT worldwide.

      If you want to have information about the ears this you will
      only find on www.dasgesundeohr.de worldwide.


      ME: Thank you very much for your reply.
      I am reading your web site, it is too much for me to read.
      Please tell me where is a peer reviewed proof that your approach works? Please state page so I do not have to read entire document.

      DR. W: if you want to know you have to read all my information.
      I have no influence what Medline is publishing.
      My scientific papers you find on www.dr-wilden.de


      ME: Where on your website is there a proof that your method works? Please tell me what page I should read.

      DR W: No answer


      ME: Medline would not publish paper under your name if:
      1) You misspelled your name
      2) Your colleagues from University centers "forgot" to add your name
      3) You actually did not publish anything in peer reviewed journals.
      So which of the above three categories refers to you?
      As you probably know, Medline would not track your work if it was published as a book or website. Please remember that anyone can publish anything in a book or website, because there is no control what someone publishes there. (There is no editorial board).
      For example, I work in financial industry. I can put on my website anything I want, but this is no proof that I know finance. I can also say that I played violin beautifully as a child and that I read Shakespeare dramas in my twenties. This is fine, but has nothing to do with my skills in finance. (I was alluding to the fact that you received the award for the best scientific study at the 2nd World Congress of WALT. This is fine, but says nothing about your skills to cure Tinnitus).
      The same principle also applies for medicine. Please let me know where the proof is.

      DR. W I recommend to you to try other therapies to solve your problems. Please understand that I cannot longer answer your emails because I need my time to help the sufferers which really need help.


      ME: Thank you very much for your reply.
      I understand that you are trying to help sufferers that really need help.
      But sufferers that really need help also need the proof that your therapy works.
      I am surprised that official medicine does not know for your work. I am surprised that you published nothing in peer reviewed journal. I am also surprised that you refuse to answer on what page of your website there is a proof that your method indeed works.
      The only logical answer seems to be that you are scamming people for money? Please tell me if I am wrong.
      I would be very happy if you can give me some evidence, instead of circumferential talking.

      DR. W: No answer


      ME: I read posts about you on tinnitustalk.com
      People are saying that your therapy has no scientific basis and that you are only stealing money from the suffering. Is this correct?

      DR. W: I am not responsible what strange people are thinking or not thinking.
      You have to find out by yourself what value my cost free information are having for you.



      ME: Please send me the links to the clinical trials that compared your therapy to placebo. I cannot find out by myself, as you suggested.
      But, since you have been doing this for a long time, I am sure you allowed clinical testing. Like double blind study, comparing x number of patients that received therapy with real laser, and same number that received therapy with fake laser. During testing neither you nor patient knew who received real and who fake laser. Than independent person see if there is any difference. Very simple, correct?

      Those clinical studies are not expensive. They also do not need FDA approval.
      I cannot find out myself if your therapy is any better than placebo. You know that well.
      Please email me links to published clinical studies.

      DR W: No answer. No proof was ever furnished. Dr. Wilden stopped communicating with me and did not answer any additional questions.
       
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    2. bell

      bell Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      2004
      Hello Henry, welcome here, there is another thread in this forum where we share our doubts and experiences with LLLT. Please, feel free to read it as you will find answers to some of your questions, you can join us and share your doubts and oppinions.
       
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    3. ragnaboz2

      ragnaboz2 Member

      Location:
      istanbul, Turkey
      Tinnitus Since:
      02/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      I wish I would know
      not by dr wilden but there is a double-blind study,even with a very very small power. Held in haydarpasa military hospital, istanbul, Turkey. I am not an advocate of neither dr wilden nor lllt but I got really great relief from laser light, although not complete elimination... (by the way I have never been to dr. wilden, I have preferred Anne in Norway)

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17625032
       
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    4. Mithrandir
      Ape-like

      Mithrandir Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma + NIHL
      LLLT functions for me and I will go in Norway to accelerate the process ! Who is the scam @Henry1492 ?
       
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    5. InfiniteLoop
      Sunshine

      InfiniteLoop Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Redwood City, California
      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Not sure. Long-term microbial overgrowth?
      @Mithrandir

      You are using Trobalt right now. How can you claim that LLLT works for you at the same time?
       
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    6. Mithrandir
      Ape-like

      Mithrandir Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma + NIHL
      Trobalt makes things about my T but nothing about fullness in the ears or for my H. Since I began LLLT this feelings is different about fullness or ear pain when I breathe for example ;)
       
    7. Mike Alanson

      Mike Alanson Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2011
      HENRY 1492,

      I want to seriously thank-you for uploading your correspondence experience with Dr. Wilden.

      I have read many of the posts & discussions about low-level-laser considerations for treatment of Tinnitus. Additionally, I studied many of the clinical studies shown at NIH Pubmed, I have Dr. Shulman's text book on Tinnitus, the TRI text book on tinnitus (tinnitus research initiative - 1,000 pages), and a Physics text book about laser light and its applications in science, medicine and engineering.

      I have chronic tinnitus for 5 years and in the first year of my onset I lived in a medical library at the University of Washington and I tried, to the best of my ability, to read everything about the neurological auditory dysfunction and all of the treatment therapies used to date.

      I am not a Physician, however in my immediate family there are two doctors and a nurse. I investigated the world of tinnitus with two medical dictionaries and personal guidance from a family of medical trained professionals.

      With this said - as Dr. Nagler has expressed and other noted persons in the field of Tinnitus, at this juncture of time there is NO CURE FOR TINNITUS.

      You have shared with the world, personal email correspondence with Dr. Wilden - the commentary is fact and not fiction. If anyone would read through your email exchange they can come to only one realization. Dr. Wilden offers for money a treatment modality for Tinnitus which has zero clinical evidence as an effective therapy for Tinnitus.

      Tinnitus is a very complex medical condition which has numerous causation. Unfortunately, the psychological negative effects upon the individual can make it emotionally unbearable.

      As you have stated, there are several management protocols which show to be effective in reducing the negative emotional state of mind caused by chronic tinnitus.

      On a personal note:

      After reading through my textbook about laser energy and it's applications I did the following.

      Although, there is no medical evidence that LLLT has an application for tinnitus, I purchased a LLL device designed for treatment within the inner ear. The technical specs were similar to the device that Dr. Wilden uses. I did LLLT for 9 months following a recommended protocol. While using the device the characteristics of my tinnitus changed - there were changes in frequency tones, pitch levels and volume.

      Conclusion:

      After nine months there was absolutely no significant positive effect or improvement in my tinnitus. I treated myself for nine months because I am human and like anyone else I was desperate to trying perhaps anything; even when clinical evidence was clearly lacking.

      Again, thank-you Henry for posting actual email correspondences, which surely indicate that Dr. Wilden is a "hot bag of air" with empty answers. I am sure he has a great financial lifestyle.

      Throughout history, there are hundreds of stories about doctors and others in the medical filed who have taken serious financial advantages of sickly people - the dark side of human nature!
       
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    8. attheedgeofscience
      Uninvolved

      attheedgeofscience Member Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Denmark
      Tinnitus Since:
      Childhood
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Head Injury
      If you know this:
      Why would you do the following...
      ...instead of?:

      Rephrased in simple terms:

      Knowing there is no cure for tinnitus (according to Nagler), why would you buy a cold-laser device instead of doing management protocols (that are effective)?
       
      • Good Question Good Question x 1
    9. Mike Alanson

      Mike Alanson Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2011
      As I've expressed my tinnitus is beyond the five year mark. Through this time period I have tried several treatments seeking improvement.

      My use of LLLT was during the second year period. Since that time I have purchased and used treatment therapy methods that are for the purpose of management; methods used to improve habituation and tinnitus characteristics.

      For the most part I have improved psychologically and regarding the volume and tonal frequencies there is minor improvement.

      We are all human with emotions; fear and illness removes logical thinking patterns. Why does anyone try something where there is no substantial mark of evidence - because when there is "Not A Cure" for one's illness we become scared, frightened, disturbed and we desire like a child to be well again.

      Many Neurological diseases have "No Cure", however there are drugs and other treatments which help to some extent to manage / control / off-set the medical condition.
       
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    10. Mithrandir
      Ape-like

      Mithrandir Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma + NIHL
      @mike Alençon Thanks for you report, that one report, some say that help them and others say no...

      When you say "a treatment modality for Tinnitus which has zero clinical evidence as an effective therapy for Tinnitus."

      Do you include the recent Harvard study ?


      Which laser did you use ? what was your symptoms ? Did you protect you ?
      Thanks to share your information please :)
       
    11. Bobby B
      Fine

      Bobby B Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      long term NIHL and recent acoustic trauma
      @Mike Alanson
      I read you posts before, long story well written but you aren't giving us any specific and important details at all - how did you get your tinnitus, what does it sound like and what is the degree of hearing loss you had and how did you get it ?

      You said you bought a laser device, again what device and what frequencies/power settings/times you did on it ?
      And what changes in hearing did you get after ?

      And your story about the Israeli guy - what did he do exactly besides giving you drug capsules and vitamins ?
       
    12. Mike Alanson

      Mike Alanson Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2011
      No, I am not familiar with the recent Harvard study.

      May I make a comment about clinical studies;

      A singular isolated study does not serve as absolute evidence. When I read a clinical study I look for the fine print; who has financed the study, who is directing the study, who is doing the statistical analysis, what is the model and the study protocol, who benefits from the stated conclusions, etc.

      It's a world with much political and financial influence and interests.

      Me, Myself and I truly wish there was a legitimate and conclusive cure, treatment or protocol which would offer complete relief to all of us - the millions of people with disturbing tinnitus.

      Concerning the medical laser I used, I have since sold the unit and I have no interest in trying LLLT again.

      If someone wants to try LLLT just for heck of it (without any expectations) - you can research the model Wilden uses and spend a reasonable amount of money to duplicate the process.

      For those who do not have money to throw away, this would not make good sense.
       
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    13. Mike Alanson

      Mike Alanson Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2011
      Bobby B,

      Dr. Shemesh in Israel did absolutely nothing but offered expensive capsules supposedly made up of vitamins, minerals and some herbs. That's all he did - absolutely no effect - false hope / false treatment. That's it..

      I most likely caused my Tinnitus from loud noise intrusion from my work environment and live music shows (just much to loud). I have approximately a 30% loss of hearing in select higher frequencies. Everyone has different neurological noises in the brain - there's no need for a description.

      There are so many medical lasers in the market place for sale - choose your own if you want to experiment - my protocol is not important nor would I influence anyone.

      My intention in all of my writing here is to show appreciation for the author who has shared Wilden's emails.

      The arguments about LLLT baffles me - people want to believe in fiction. If you really want to learn about human anatomy, physiology, tinnitus disease and whether or not light energy may help, then be prepared to seriously study in a medical library environment for two years.

      I conclude my involvement regarding this subject matter. I only share my honest experience.
       
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    14. Mike Alanson

      Mike Alanson Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2011
      Clarification:

      "While using the device the characteristics of my tinnitus changed - there were changes in frequency tones, pitch levels and volume."

      These changes were not positive or negative nor permanent; they occurred during sessions.

      As I stated my tinnitus was the same as before I started LLLT. This was confirmed by Audiology tests.

      Repeating here:

      I conclude my involvement regarding this subject matter. I only share my honest experience.
       
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    15. Bobby B
      Fine

      Bobby B Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      long term NIHL and recent acoustic trauma
      The other aspect with LLLT - and doc Wilden makes it a very important point in the protocol , is to wear extra ear protection at all times while doing it and even after
      The "up to 85 Db is fine scale "does not apply if you have damaged hair cells

      That means earplugs / earmuffs in most places people find it normally noisy like inside cars, public places planes trains restaurants etc..

      Also due to your line of work It seems that you have been subject to additional noise exposure so that may explain why it didn't work very well

      An yes , a bunch of vitamins and pills alone isn't going to work obviousely I thought that we talked about LLLT being as scam!

      Curing tinnitus wiht LLLT is tough but for me the goal is to get some hearing improvement, less hyperacusis and make the t a bit softer and easier to habituate . We know it won't disappear completley
       
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    16. Zechariah

      Zechariah Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Finland
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
      @Mike Alanson , can you answer to @Bobby B 's question:

      "You said you bought a laser device, again what device and what frequencies/power settings/times you did on it ?
      And what changes in hearing did you get after ?"


      As general comment, I'm planning on trying LLLT. I'm not expecting it to improve my T too much but I'm expecting it to improve/repair my hearing and make T less annoying in that way.
       
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    17. Mike Alanson

      Mike Alanson Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2011
      I thought I signed out for good in this thread discussion. However, I was up late last night reading articles at NIH Pubmed; I thought I would add the following information which is insightful.

      Regarding the NIH Pubmed article:

      Pre-conditioning with near infrared photobiomodulation reduces inflammatory cytokines and markers of oxidative stress in cochlear hair cells.

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26790619

      Note the following:

      The article was published for a fee by - WILEY-VCH Verlag GmbH & Co. KGaA, Weinheim.

      Wiley-VCHis aGermanpublisherowned byJohn Wiley & Sons. It was founded in 1921 by two German "learned societies". Later, it was merged into theGerman Chemical Society(GDCh). It has been owned by John Wiley & Sons since 1996.[1]


      The research project was financed by - J Biophotonics. 2016 Jan 21. doi: 10.1002/jbio.201500209. [Epub ahead of print]

      TheJournal of Biophotonicsis apeer-reviewedscientific journalcovering research on theinteractions between light and biological material. The journal was established in 2008 by Jürgen Popp (Jena, Germany), Gert von Bally (Muenster, Germany), and Andreas Thoss (Berlin, Germany).[1]and is published byWiley–VCH. Theeditor-in-chiefis Jürgen Popp.

      In addition to regular submissions, theJournal of Biophotonicspublishes topical issues on selected research areas, e.g. biophotonics inregenerative medicineanddermatology,optical coherence tomography, and therapeutic laser applications.

      Important:

      The study was performed via “culturedHEI-OC1 auditory cells” placed under oxidative stress. Meaning the test process was completed in a laboratory culture environment and not on live animal subjects.

      The NIR treatments also included using the drugs gentamicin or lipopolysaccharide.

      An opinion (nothing more):

      Biophotonics is involved in supporting and publishing research to help promote further investigations for the use of light-energy as it may apply to medical treatments, both current and into the future.

      I believe this article and other writings in the Journal of Biophotonics show a good rationale why more scientific research and studies should be financed to further understand how LLLT may one-day be used with scientific confidence in the area of Tinnitus.

      Currently, there is not substantial broad-based evidence to prove efficacy. I hope that in the future there will be a deeper understanding of LLL potentials. Perhaps in the future a standard technical protocol will established.

      I think for now it’s an absolute “trial & error” for anyone who might consider trying LLLT. There are many other alternative treatments to consider; unfortunately, like LLLT all of these modalities suffer by not having conclusive data to indicate actual positive results.

      Regarding the NIH Pubmed article:

      Efficacy of Low-Level Laser Therapy in the Management of Tinnitus due to Noise-Induced Hearing Loss: A Double-Blind Randomized Clinical Trial

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3830897/

      This study was financed and published by ScientificWorldJournal v.2013; 2013 PMC3830897

      Anyone who is considering LLLT for Tinnitus and/or Hearing Loss should read this detailed clinical study in its full writing.

      Abstract: .4 Discussion:

      Mixed results were also obtained by studies that have used tinnitus loudness score as their primary outcome measure. While this study in line with Tauber et al. [11], Gungor et al. [22], Newman et al. [20], and Shiomi et al. [23] has found tinnitus loudness to be improved after LLLT, two evaluations have failed to show the same efficacy [15,16]. A noteworthy point to consider is the pronounced improvement reported by our patients after receiving placebo, which vanished at the end of the follow-up period. This observation, to our opinion, might be explained best by a placebo effect.

      The results of total THI score in our study were in accordance with VAS results after LLLT and were consistent with the study of Cuda and Caria [14], but Teggi et al. did not show this change [15].Table 4presents a detailed comparison between the findings of some relevant studies with what we found in our population. We suppose that the controversial results could be attributable to employing different treatment courses, as well as varied experiment settings. For instance, our patients received therapy in clinic, while Teggi et al. [15] gave the participants their course of treatment at home.

      Comparison of the design and results of some relevant studies with the present study.

      Even though it remained higher compared with the baseline level and placebo group, we observed that the effect of LLLT attenuated after 3 months. Our finding was attenuated by another research with assessment period of 4 weeks and 6 months [11]. It seems that the efficacy of LLLT decreases over time, which may necessitates repeating the therapy. Further evidence, however, is needed for determining a proper time interval between sessions.

      While most of the former comparable studies have not taken concomitant hearing disorders into consideration, we assessed the effect of LLLT on tinnitus in a background of sensorineural hearing loss. However, our results should be interpreted in the light of some limitations. The first limitation was our 3-month follow-up period that made it impossible to evaluate long-term outcomes of the studied intervention. Secondly, due to the fact that our study population comprised of male workers, the obtained results may hardly be generalized to other populations.

      In conclusion, this study has provided evidence for the efficacy of LLLT in relieving NIHL accompanied tinnitus, an effect that was weakened after 3 months follow-up.

      Despite significant improving results, the LLLB treatment non-response rate was considerable which should be taken into account when considering this treatment method.

      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Concerning the original author's article title. I think each person must decide whether or not Wilden is possibly a scam; the cost for LLLT is very expensive including the travel costs to Germany, etc.

      I think Dr. Wilden leaves a lot of unanswered questions on the table. Since he has been doing this process for many years then why is there not a data base that tracks honest results for hundreds of patients covering a span of time!
       
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    18. attheedgeofscience
      Uninvolved

      attheedgeofscience Member Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Denmark
      Tinnitus Since:
      Childhood
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Head Injury
      I many problems with public boards, in no small part those relating to health matters, and especially those relating to tinnitus. On the top of my "problems list" is the ability for posters to put topics into their own words.

      If you can't put into your own words, chances are you don't understand the subject matter...
       
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    19. just1morething
      Benevolent

      just1morething Member Benefactor

      Location:
      U.S.
      Tinnitus Since:
      2008
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      barotrauma from airplane descent, noise exposure? ETD? TMJD?
      Dr. Wilden and Dr. Schemish both sound like scam artists quite frankly, laughing their way to the bank with the tinnitus sufferer left holding the bag. Accidentally added "c" to Shemesh, but see it looks better that way.
       
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    20. Bobby B
      Fine

      Bobby B Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      long term NIHL and recent acoustic trauma
      There are a lot of places that offer LLLT , Zazzio from Sweden also made published studies on hyperacusis

      Then we have rat studies showing better hair cells after trauma

      Shemesh did not do any LLLT on the poster who said he was scammed - all he did was give him some pills and compliments so yes I am not even sure why he would fly even there being such a well informed and intelligent person ...
      The long flight alone wihtout adequate ear protection can make existing hearing loss even worse

      For LLLT you don't even need to go to a clinic , just buy the unit and do it for a year it cost me 160 usd a month - worst case it does nothing but you won't have side effects like some of the other heavy duty drugs which only have temporary benefits

      Again - the realistic goal is some improvement in hyperacusis, hearing loss and sound quality
      Tinnitus isn't going to be cured but maybe - big maybe - get softer and easier to habituate
       
    21. just1morething
      Benevolent

      just1morething Member Benefactor

      Location:
      U.S.
      Tinnitus Since:
      2008
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      barotrauma from airplane descent, noise exposure? ETD? TMJD?
      I would think the U.S. Department of Defense would look into LLLT if it had some value?
       
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    22. Bobby B
      Fine

      Bobby B Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      long term NIHL and recent acoustic trauma
      Have they looked into trobalt ? esketamine ?
      Stem cells ?
      They are only going to look into the long time established classic treatment like hearing aids or habituation protocols using sounds for tinnitus .

      That's the way it has been working for decades - you've got hearing loss ? No problem here are some hearing aids payed for you by the government , issue solved on the same day - next please .

      It's the army, it has to work the same for everyone at the basic level.

      LLLT on the hand works to some extent for hearing loss due to recent acoustic trauma but it takes time , not everyone is a good candidate and the damage has to be quite mild or moderate because the body is doing the healing not the laser and it has to be "fixable"

      Not the level of hearing loss you typically get in combat duty
       
      • Agree Agree x 2
    23. Zechariah

      Zechariah Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Finland
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
      Hi, interesting data, thanks for sharing.

      But on the otherhand, it is also interesting why do you keep dodging these simple questions? It's almost like you needed some reinforcement for your studied knowledge (and opinion) and decided to inform that you tried LLLT without actually doing it...

       
    24. matt89
      Studious

      matt89 Member Benefactor Team Tech Team Awareness

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
      Have read many articles about LLLT by Dr. Wilden.
      Don't want to evaluate his method as "not working". I believe that LLLT can have an effect.
      But the fact that he moved to Ibiza and the prices for his laser devices are so high contrast to other devices makes me sceptical.
      All in all it seems he is running a huge money making machine from sunny Ibiza recently flavoured by a new Harvard study which is emphasized on his website like the holy grail.

      Someone who is a scientist, does research and wants to help tinnitus sufferers for real wouldn't act that way and wouldn't promote his methods like a hoover ad on television.
       
    25. Bobby B
      Fine

      Bobby B Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      long term NIHL and recent acoustic trauma
      Guys, he is only one Doc - he does not have a monopoly on LLLT ! I have seen many other places offering similar treatment around the world, in Scandinavia and USA, Croatia etc.. stop focusing on him..read the study below instead (not Wilden!)..a proof that LLLT does something beneficial to the ears in regards to noise damage

      https://www.researchgate.net/public...vention_of_noise-induced_hearing_loss_in_rats
       
      • Agree Agree x 1
    26. Henry1492

      Henry1492 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2006
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Not sure
      For Many Tinnitus Sufferers There Is a Spontaneous Remission Of The Condition. Typically, For Those Who Have The Onset Of Tinnitus For Less Than One Year.

      Spontaneous remission (self-healing process) is experienced by more than three-quarters of sufferers. In young patients of Israeli army the spontaneous recovery occurred in over 85 % of cases within the first year of diagnosis. All patients were young, received no therapy, and noise exposure was the main culprit. In one study of the older population Rubinstein found substantial longitudinal fluctuations in tinnitus and a high occurrence of spontaneous remission. The patients were studied at ages 70, 75 and 79 years. Results showed that tinnitus had increased in severity in 25 % of the women, and decreased in 58%, leaving 17% unchanged. For the men, tinnitus increased in 8% and decreased in 39%, with a larger proportion unchanged (53%). While there is no medical cure of any type (except spontaneous remission), most people with tinnitus get used to it over time (habituation); for a minority it remains to be a significant problem.

      http://www.audiologyonline.com/articles/long-term-outcome-tinnitus-many-1154
      http://kiezberlinois.com/in-most-of-the-tinnitus-sufferers-there-is-a-spontaneous-cure/

      With all that is being said, I do have the following questions:

      1) Ragnaboz2, young 30 year old woman who had T for only 13 months, got significantly better within one year. Why does she think that her improvement has anything to do with LLLT, which she received in Norway and not with spontaneous remission, which occurs in 85% of young patients like herself even when doing nothing? Isn't she confusing coincidence with causation?

      2) Mithrandir is a 28 year old man with acute tinnitus of 5 months duration. I wonder why he does not want to wait at least one year to see if natural regeneration occurs in the same way that it does in 85% of men of his age group whose Tinnitus was caused by loud noise? In addition, how does he know that LLLT would work for him if he has not yet started with laser therapy? There are no clinical scientifically based results or statistical data that indicates LLLT causes proven results for Tinnitus.

      In my experience, the best therapy is to ignore the ringing noise and to learn habituation. If you cannot habituate by yourself within a year, then go to tinnitus clinic where a properly trained audiologist will help you to habituate with sound therapy.

      The worst thing you can do is to run from one so-called guru to another guru who is selling you "the magic cure". You will listen to your tinnitus all the time trying to figure out if the therapy works or not. This would increase your awareness and loudness of your tinnitus and the "curative therapy" will have the opposite effect - it will make your Tinnitus worse.

      It is natural that everyone wants to get cured and not only managed. Gurus that are selling you "the claim of a cure" are very charming and polite, since they are selling you just hope, not the facts. When Ray Ennis and Michael Cohen were in the early stages of "curative therapy" by Dr. Shemesh they were fighting with toes and nails for their "savior". They went even so far to threaten Dr. Nagler with a lawsuit because he did not believe in their "messiah".

      The end result was much less uplifting. Michael Cohen still has Tinnitus, Ray Ennis, on the other side, committed suicide when he realized that the Messiah Dr. Shemesh existed only in his imagination (there was no curative effect):

      https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/dr-shemesh-israel-clinic-bluff-or-serious.1733/#post-103206

      We need more firm data, large scale clinical studies, not anecdotal based "evidence" (Ragnaboz2) or "false proofs" based on hope (Mithrandir).
      Unfortunately, the majority of clinical studies performed in established medical centers, in developed countries, have failed to prove that LLLT has any significant effect on Tinnitus:

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=LLLT+tinnitus

      Has anyone who has experienced Tinnitus lasting 2 years or longer been permanently cured by Dr Wilden or anyone else using LLLT? If yes, was that person included in any medical study, and if not, why not?

      I find it very odd that a physician, like Dr. Wilden, would hide his success stories from publication in established peer reviewed medical journals. The process for a Doctor to submit a medical article for journal publication is essentially free and needs no approval from FDA or any industry.

      The positive results (proving that therapy works better than placebo) would be best advertisement. I wonder why results of Dr Wilden or Dr Shemesh are not published?

      Both are doctors, both have been in business for decades - what are they hiding?
       
      • Like Like x 2
      • Helpful Helpful x 1
    27. Mithrandir
      Ape-like

      Mithrandir Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma + NIHL
      @Henry1492 T is not really annoying for me and I don't hear it except when I use ear plugs 'cause my problem is Hyperacusis, ear pain, crackle and fulness in the ears...

      The day I discovered LLLT from Wilden I won 2660€, the price of the laser, I saw the signal my friend ;)

      But I hope you'll be right with my disease.
       
    28. dboy
      Jaded

      dboy Member Benefactor

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      1/2007 & 8/2013
      Do you have a reference for this please? Obviously there is spontaneous recovery in many cases of tinnitus, eg. when someone has it the day after a concert. But it is a different thing if someone has it for, say, three months and then it goes. Are you claiming 85% remission in cases that have established themselves for more than a day or two? This is not made clear, and if you are claiming this then I find it a big surprise having been a regular reader of this tinnitus forum for several years now.

      I looked at the links you posted, but the first gives different information and the second is mainly just disconnected gibberish - for example:

      I do think if you are going to claim the high ground as regards evidence, etc., then you need to be prepared to hold yourself to a certain standard too. I have noticed many times in this debate that the debunkers insist on cast-iron proof from the other side while consistently employing obviously dodgy discursive tactics themselves. One example is the attempt to link Wilden and Shemesh, despite them being different people selling completely different things. Since it seems to be accepted that Shemesh is dishonest, linking Wilden to him is an underhand trick bearing in mind that while there is definitely not 100% proof there is some evidence for LLLT.

      I also think it would be best to avoid saying things like this:
      All I see here is dubious assertions. Did either Wilden or Shemesh really claim that they did not want to "waste" time finding out whether their treatment works? Or are you simply making assertions based on what you believe is motivating these two (different) people.

      Please note that I am not saying you are wrong in the underlying substance of what you are saying. I don't really know. But when I see tactics like this employed then alarm bells start ringing for me (insert tinnitus joke here). Nobody cuts through the **** by doing it like this. It just shovels more on the pile.

      P.S. to above... Thanks however for posting your correspondence with Wilden. I thought you were a little aggressive with him perhaps, which might have provoked defensiveness/avoidance. But yes, some alarm bells also rang on reading his responses. :)
       
    29. Mike Alanson

      Mike Alanson Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      03/2011
      Some comments if I may:

      I think that matt89 (posted above) has expressed in most realistic terms and in a pragmatic way the "dark truth" that surrounds Dr. Wilden; I agree with him 100% and Wilden simply runs a business for money, he is not a devoted research clinician, he is by no means a purest in the world of true science!

      If you spend some time researching different companies that make ear lasers, you will see that the price of the unit he sells is outrageous (a rip-off). When comparing look for manufacturing certifications and carefully read all products specs.

      For those who want to "experiment" just for the heck of it, you can buy affordable ear lasers at;

      http://www.konftec.com/html/EN/Auricular_Laser_Comparison.htm

      This is where I purchased an ear laser. The company offers a ninety day return policy for a 15% return fee of original cost.

      Note:

      I went to see Dr. Shemesh (an absolute con-artist) in a time before TinnitusTalk and other Forums were offered on the internet. His website stated lies such as - "cure" "curative process" "military secret" "85% success rate" etc.

      I got suckered trapped by his website lies and medical claims. He also used Anecdotal videos to trap the suffering patient like a large spider web!

      Once again I suggest to read as many clinical based studies at NIH Pubmed. If you decide to try LLLT, in my opinion, you should have no expectations - you are merely experimenting.

      As far as parameters and protocols, there are no established methods; everyone is different. You can read about LLLT users at Tinnitus Talk and make suggestions - also the clinical studies offer suggestive methods used.

      Also, animal studies and results are not indicative of potential effects for people; out anatomy and physiology are in some cases very different.

      Remember, all of these choices are labeled "Alternative Treatments." As I expressed before, if one has lots of money and they want to try LLLT or other alternative treatments then they can afford to experiment.

      For those on Tinnitus Talk who do not posses great sums of money, they want to find both alternative and FDA approved protocols which offer the "highest degree of scientific documentation." Nothing is guaranteed due to the complex nature of tinnitus, its causation(s) and the auditory system's physiology.

      The more we research through legitimate information, the more we learn, then the better will be our choices in selecting a tinnitus treatment that will hopefully cause improvement (we are searching for the best statistical odds).
       
    30. Bobby B
      Fine

      Bobby B Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      long term NIHL and recent acoustic trauma
      The "spontaneous remission " claim mentioned here is very important , if true it shows that the body has the ability to heal the ears over a much longer time period after acoustic traumas

      This is what laser is about , help the body heal the ears better and faster

      If younger people body can do it alone then not so young people may need a little help - phototherapy - to achieve the same or better result than young guys but again , it's possible to repair the ear cells or nerves over longer time that's the positive factor.
       

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