Lenire — Bimodal Stimulation Treatment by Neuromod

@Liz Windsor how's your tinnitus doing?

 

Can you please provide the source for that (if you remember)?

 

FFS, change your profile photo. How can anyone take anything you post seriously with that. It looks like my Dad getting ready to be ****** by my ++++ w/ a &&&& - battery powered.

 

How can anyone take anything I post seriously regardless. And it's just my personal hero Gerard Green.

 

I read it from their first trial paper on the device. The TLM (Tinnitus Loudness Matching) that reduced by 7.5dB, but the Masking Level was reduced by 9.7 dB.

https://www.neuromoddevices.com/con...dvancement/phase-i-safety-and-feasibility.pdf

 

https://www.neuromoddevices.com/con...dvancement/phase-i-safety-and-feasibility.pdf

THI (-11.7 pts, p < 0.001), TLM (-7.5dB, p < 0.001), and MML (-9.7dB, p < 0.001)

 

How I see the whole Lenire thing from the deepest pits of my ignorances and simplicities is as follows:

They'll need to polish things up here and there in order to diminish the chances of worsening. Besides that, it will pretty much be the toss of a coin. There will be people reporting improvement and people having no changes whatsoever. Until we don't try it we won't know which group we belong to.

At last and after ages of snake oil remedies we have something which seems to represent a step towards some promising realms.

 

@Josh1994 thank you for your review, I appreciate how long and detailed it was.

You mentioned being able to take some questions. Did they say by how many dB your tinnitus was reduced?

 

I actually really admire you for sticking around even though you're no longer directly affected. We need more people like you.

 

Well there's ways to help guess where you land. It seems the best results come from:
-Mild tinnitus.
-People with hyperacusis (this is a big one).
-Young people.
-New cases of tinnitus.

 

@Josh1994
What was your initial MML?

 

@Ruse @threefirefour (or anyone else)

I want to try and understand just what Lenire's reduction of 7.5 dB equates to in the real world. There's one reference in this thread that states it's something like a 33% reduction in the volume of tinnitus. As we're talking decibels in terms of percentages I thought it would be useful to find an independent article that did the same:

http://www.tonywoolf.co.uk/50percentreduction.htm

Although the article does mention noise-reducing headphones it's actually about double-glazing! That said, I found his technical overview quite interesting. Do you guys have any comments?

P.S. what does p < 0.001 mean?

 

With regards to a 7.5 dB decrease, what percentage change that translates to in reality depends entirely on the current loudness of your tinnitus.

It is commonly accepted that a 10 dB reduction would represent a halving of perceived volume, HOWEVER if your tinnitus is only 7.5 dB above hearing threshold for example, then your tinnitus would of course be reduced by 100%.

I’ve used music production software & headphones in the past to produce a tone that matches the loudness of my tinnitus, and then reduced then gain by 7.5 dB to gauge what difference this makes. For me it ends up almost completely eliminating my tinnitus, though everyone will be different.

P < 0.001 refers to ‘statistical significance’ (less than one in a thousand chance of this result happening by chance).

 

The 33% figure is about correct. dB is exponential, so an increase of 10 dB at any volume is a doubling of volume. So if someone's tinnitus drops from 30 dB to 22.5 dB, it means it's at 66% of its original volume.

 

For what it is worth I keep poking at the Neuromod schedulers every 2-3 weeks and I just got a response back from them. They confirmed that they are still keeping people in line for when they signed up (come on already, it was July) and that for me they would be giving me a date in early 2020.

More interesting, though only mildly so, the faceless person that responded to my email had not heard anything about @Redknight's report that they were planning on rolling out remote updates. Fingers crossed that the email person isn't in the loop because I'm on the far corner of SE Asia and the commute is going to be a bitch.

 

Interesting. I have some music production software on my own computer so might try this experiment.

 

How can a layman do such a test? I don't have any calibrated equipment so how would I know if a tone is a said number of dB?

 

Great! I am 41, tinnitus for 4 years, no hyperacusis, really severe tinnitus. I'll have to start considering jumping on the antidepressants wagon.

 

Indeed the cases where Lenire seems to have been most effective are with those people with relatively mild, newish cases of tinnitus. That's to say those cases where people probably would have habituated anyway. Which leads one to question how much more effective it is than any other type of placebo.

 

This has probably been asked before but I really want to know whether those checking in via Tinnitus Talk have hyperacusis because if not that would be a big reason for me (having hyperacusis) to hold onto some optimism.

 

From the recent podcast:

57:18 Does tinnitus duration matter?

Hazel: Have you seen any effect in terms of treatment response with regard to how long someone has had tinnitus? Does it matter if they’ve had it 20 years or six months?

Ross: We have not seen anything yet that suggests that duration is important. In TENT A1 up we looked up to 5 years and in TENT A2 we extended that. Duration hasn’t emerged as important but we will continue to use all of the post-market clinical follow-up data that we are obliged to collect from a regulatory perspective, to see if duration and other variables are important.

 

You don’t need any equipment, I just match the tinnitus in my left ear with a tone in my right ear, then pull the volume fader back 7.5dB.

I’m not aware of how you would be able to do this without a DAW (digital audio workstation) though unfortunately.

 

I'm afraid we all fear the answer for your question. As she said, if there is something positive to report, she will... this was her answer to me. I hope that things didn't get worse...

 

It isn’t just habituation, in the newer cases a proportion do actually fade to nothing or very low, and anecdotally this does seem to be a bit more common in younger people. Agree it is mostly the people with newer tinnitus, maybe the younger ones, this device is having an effect on so far. Doesn’t necessarily mean Neuromod is having no effect on them, but it would be a concern if it only had an effect in the most malleable “neuroplastic” cases.

 

Nifty

So that's to find out what 7.5dB reduction would feel like.

How about matching your tinnitus to an absolute number? That would likely require calibrated equipment?

 

Hi there. Just a quick reply. I only got back very late on Tuesday from my Dublin appointment, and haven't had any time to respond yet.

However, my tinnitus is not worse. I am still optimistic that Lenire will help me as there have been subtle changes. I will put a more comprehensive post on the Lenire User Experiences thread probably tomorrow. I've had a long journey today in bad traffic so would rather not do it now as want to make sure I don't report anything misleading or incorrect!

Kind regards,
Liz

 

Thank you for keeping us updated.

 

I'd much rather accept the "gold standard" evidence of the User Experiences thread - the people who invested their own time and money in Lenire and do not have any reason for bias - rather than just believing what Neuromod - who have an obvious commercial reason for bias - say. The User Experiences thread suggests that the length of time someone has had tinnitus does matter.

 

This is true but right now the correlation does seem pretty low.

 

Using the same method I’m sure you could find the level at which you cannot hear the tone - and then bring up the volume fader / gain utility until the loudness of your tinnitus is matched.

How many dB you have had to bring up the volume by would indicate the loudness of your tinnitus above your hearing threshold I believe?

It depends how accurate you would like to be I guess.