Lenire — Bimodal Stimulation Treatment by Neuromod

Discussion in 'Treatments' started by Tinnitus Talk, Apr 20, 2019.

    1. Jack V

      Jack V Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      1/2020
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Something Wicked This Way Comes
      Showers also sometimes relieve my tinnitus to some extent as well. :beeranimation:

      The way you expressed it, as bimodal stimulation, actually seems pretty insightful. For all we know the electrical stimulation from experiencing warm water droplets all over your head, face, and neck is not crude at all, but effective exactly because it is so saturating.
       
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    2. Agrajag364

      Agrajag364 Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      09/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown
      Yes mine also gets quieter after a shower.
       
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    3. PeterPan
      Nerdy

      PeterPan Member Advocate

      Location:
      Sydney
      Tinnitus Since:
      09/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Heat Exhaustion
      Here is the link to the thread on showers.

      https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/shower-can-give-me-prolonged-suppression.1818/

      Maybe it’s been bimodal stimulation all along. Maybe people who have some kind of effect from showers (which includes me, btw!) will be particularly good candidates for the Lenire...!

      And also, maybe the shower is a suboptimal way of reducing tinnitus and it could be improved upon significantly (with the present crop of bimodal devices being a first step).
       
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    4. hans799
      Mellow

      hans799 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Hungary
      Tinnitus Since:
      Born with it
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Worsened Dec 2016 by headphones
      Lenire's default PS1 stimulation is just that: saturation. It broadcasts wideband noise into your ears, and a lot of beeps, and the electric stimulation on the tongue is timed precisely to match the beeps. It dumps a ton of synchronized noise through two separate channels into the dorsal cochlear nucleus, telling it the input is coming in all right, yes, bucko? So there's no need for you to helpfully replace its absence with a phantom noise you generate, right? And if the DCN gets the message, it slowly starts toning its own bullshit down.

      (How the PS1 stimulation works is from Neuromod's own description of their trial arms. How it affects the DCN is just my own speculation.)
       
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    5. PeterPan
      Nerdy

      PeterPan Member Advocate

      Location:
      Sydney
      Tinnitus Since:
      09/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Heat Exhaustion
      Might have been a good question in the survey,

      “On occasions, does your tinnitus improve after a shower”, no, slightly, moderately, significantly...
       
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    6. UKBloke

      UKBloke Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      1991
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud Music / family history
      That is a tantalizing thought.

      Doesn't Susan Shore's test device attach electrodes to the back of the neck? In other words, could it be that the shower effect might stand a better chance of positive results if we focus the water on the back of the head? Does water temperature make a difference to skin conductivity? I think @Golly stated that water pressure did seem to have an effect. I was also wondering whether or not "timed" (with broadband noise input) massage therapy to the back of the neck might have an effect. So many questions... What the heck - gonna give all this a go and then some. At the very least, if the tinnitus doesn't improve we'll be the best-washed forum on the Internet :)
       
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    7. pinklights98
      No Mood

      pinklights98 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      08/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud Noise Exposure
      Interesting, I always get a temporary spike after a shower. The somatic element of my tinnitus goes haywire. I've learned not to care much about it because it happens every time without fail.
       
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    8. Laurie1961
      No Mood

      Laurie1961 Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      2008
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      dental work
      I cannot take a shower because it makes my tinnitus spike. Funny in the beginning the shower was one place I could go to find relief. But, then that changed. There is something in the water and some new sort of aural tracking device that causes this, that they apparently remedied because so many were living in their shower to get away from the torturous tinnitus that is being inflicted under the guise of law.
       
    9. Mathieulh
      No Mood

      Mathieulh Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Paris, France
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/24/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Chronic headphones use and acute noise induced trauma.
      It is more likely to be residual inhibition as showers cover a whole range of frequencies and it is likely you are hearing increased sounds at your tinnitus frequencies which stimulates your auditory system in some fashion.

      My tinnitus also appears to be quieter after showers, unfortunately we can't realistically stay in the shower all day.
       
    10. PeterPan
      Nerdy

      PeterPan Member Advocate

      Location:
      Sydney
      Tinnitus Since:
      09/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Heat Exhaustion
      Hi Matheulh, for me (and Golly and I think others) the reduction is all day. No need to stay in all day as the effect is long lasting.

      Residual inhibition is usually for a minute or so, I understand.

      The other thing is that the sound of the shower by itself doesn’t seem to have an effect. It’s got to be combined with the water sensation. That seems to indicate it’s not RI?
       
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    11. Don Tinny

      Don Tinny Member

      Location:
      Argentina
      Tinnitus Since:
      2017 (worsening)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud concert with ear plugs
      Strange beast. My tinnitus is always worse after showers. If I am having a good tinnitus day (really difficult lately) I take a super fast shower. If it's too long my tinnitus gets really worse.
       
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    12. GlennS

      GlennS Member Podcast Patron Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      I'm happy to hear reports of anyone who is helped by this but it does seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Also, even if you could fly back I'd be wary about what the reprogrammed timings would do. If I used this and had your kind of improvement I'd leave the parameters as-is even if the results plateau.
       
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    13. LongWait

      LongWait Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud Concert
      The first timing setting sounds worth a go. I'm that desperate.

      Has the first timing setting caused any catastrophic cases? I know of @Allan1967's case and it's worrying. Sorry to bring this up.
       
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    14. UKBloke

      UKBloke Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      1991
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud Music / family history
      You really need to go back and read the entire thread. People have been very candid about their experiences and so there's a wealth of perspective to help you work out the best way forward at this point in time. FWIW I've decided to not try Lenire for now and just try and make the best of where I'm at.
       
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    15. Mike T

      Mike T Member

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      02/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Dont Know Just Appeared
      I've given up with Lenire. Another large amount of cash paid out for no results for me (not saying it may not work for others). I've done the treatment for over half a year and struggle more now than I did with tinnitus ever before (I'm now in my third year). I first did Widex hearing aids, then CBT, TRT, and now Lenire.

      I have now accepted that this is it and I will have to live day to day, with a good day amongst all the bad days. No use looking back to when every day was a new day rather than a new challenge, I'm now going to sign off from Tinnitus Talk as dwelling on the condition is no answer and looking for the imaginary cure is equally as bad. I hope to live with the problem and not to dwell on it and let it consume me as it has.

      I picked up my Lenire device the same day as @Allan1967 and talked to him a few times. I felt for him as he struggled from the onset with Ldnifd.

      My experience with Lenire was ok. It spiked my tinnitus somewhat at first but settled down. But In reality at the end, it did nothing.

      I'm now signing off from Tinnitus Talk. Don't ask me questions please. I'm now gone. Procrastinating will do nothing helpful, and I think many members leave the forum not because they recover, they leave for the same reason as me, there is no cure so therefore you must accept tinnitus and adapt to live with it. It's going to be a hard battle but now I realise it's the only way forward (fuck knows that's not an easy choice for many).
       
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    16. Jazzer

      Jazzer Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      1/1995
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise
      There is no treatment for tinnitus,
      much less a cure.

      This wretched condition is probably so complex as to be insoluble.

      I personally never get excited about emerging projects - that is all they are - projects.

      The true value of Tinnitus Talk to me is simply a place where we can meet, talk to each other, and be understood. (sometimes.)

      Dave x
      Jazzer
       
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    17. valeri

      valeri Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Australia
      Tinnitus Since:
      09/2011
      Agree!
       
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    18. UKBloke

      UKBloke Member Podcast Patron Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      1991
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud Music / family history
      I would wager that when you look back in a couple of years, today may be the first realistic step you take towards accommodating this malady in your life.
      It's the exact same thing a doctor said to me 30 years ago - pre Internet of course.

      The Internet is a double-edged sword; a lot of useful information out there but a lot of nonsense too, and false-hope. Reality bites but at least it's that - it's real - and reality is where things happen, not on a computer screen. I hope things get better for you man, I'm sure in time they will.
       
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    19. GlennS

      GlennS Member Podcast Patron Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      I've sort of moved beyond the binary yes/no aspect of Lenire's effectiveness (which I think the official Tinnitus Talk report should put to bed to my level of satisfaction) and have become hopelessly curious about the WHY. Answering the WHY we got to where we are is crucial in figuring out whether a) Lenire might improve and b) whether we should hold out hope for Susan Shore or Minnesota. The WHY is dependent on Tinnitus Talk interviewing Neuromod again, and I guess those plans are on hold due to coronavirus? Of course, they could conduct a private interview via phone/Zoom/Skype.
       
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    20. DaveFromChicago

      DaveFromChicago Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Headcold/Flu
      The brand new treatment Lenire
      Was supposed to silence the ear;
      It was great in theory
      But made us leery
      When failures were posted here.
       
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    21. Jazzer

      Jazzer Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      1/1995
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise
      Reality is all there is folks.
      We have to go from there.
      Don’t be fobbed off with dreams.
      If something sounds too good to be true
      - IT IS !!!

      68E35490-2D9D-4CD6-8D19-98C4466E3D18.jpeg
       
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    22. FGG
      No Mood

      FGG Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Multi-factorial
      A lot of innovations seem "to good to be true at first". Especially in biotech. The list is endless but consider that they can now cure: Hep C (not treat but cure), Sickle Cell Anemia (not treat but cure), Halt the progression of DMD (soon to be cured with some exons), Leiber's congenital Amaurosis, etc etc.

      I would more optimistically take what you wrote to be a version of "trust (cautiously) but verify." Believe hard data, not promises. Data isn't "too good to be true" it just is.
       
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    23. Jazzer

      Jazzer Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      1/1995
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise
      “I’ll believe it when I hear it.

      Or rather - when I don’t hear it...xxx”
       
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    24. xyz

      xyz Member

      Location:
      Germany
      Tinnitus Since:
      2006 mild T 2019 T worsening H onset
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      unknown / probably noise induced
      The answer to the why is probably because nobody has the slightest clue about the pathophysiology of tinnitus. We can just throw random things at it with some educated guesses. Bimodal stimulation had its shot and it failed. Now it's the turn for regenerative medicine. I have some hopes for it. But let's see.
       
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    25. hans799
      Mellow

      hans799 Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Hungary
      Tinnitus Since:
      Born with it
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Worsened Dec 2016 by headphones
      No, it did not fail.

      There was a first-generation product which appears to be underwhelming based on anecdotes posted on a forum with a heavy selection bias. This product is likely to be improved, and at least two further products are in the pipeline, backed by serious research institutions and commercial interest.

      Once the Shore and Minnesota devices have been released and a few years have passed and broad patient reports like the one that PeterPan is preparing (and not just random anecdotes in a thread) have shown that the devices aren't any better than placebo and there are no further healing stories like @kelpiemsp's... then we can conclude that bimodal stimulation has failed. At this point, writing off the entire product category as a "failure" because of a weak launch is just silly, sorry.
       
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    26. GlennS

      GlennS Member Podcast Patron Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      Second-generation. Remember MuteButton?
       
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    27. Zugzug

      Zugzug Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown; Likely autoimmune; Certainly not noise-induced
      It's important to stay optimistic. Real research is being done. This is what we ask for. While I don't do medical research, I know from experience that research is essentially one failure after another. It's all steps in the right direction.
       
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    28. threefirefour
      Peeping tom

      threefirefour Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      California
      Tinnitus Since:
      5/15/16
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      140dB B R U H moment
      MuteButton never had a commercial release. It was essentially a prototype if you will.
       
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    29. GlennS

      GlennS Member Podcast Patron Hall of Fame

      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Loud music
      Preferably these failures should occur BEFORE treatments are approved and released to the public.
       
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    30. Jazzer

      Jazzer Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      1/1995
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise
      The very name ‘MuteButton’ smacks of ‘over-egged’ expectations.
      They could be sued for misrepresentation.
       
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