My Trip to Bangkok: Stem Cell Treatment [Comments]

Discussion in 'Treatments' started by Markku, Aug 18, 2013.

    1. carlover
      English

      carlover Member Benefactor

      Location:
      London
      Tinnitus Since:
      1986
      Havent noticed this stuff till today.On the edge what canI say apart from utmost respect to you in everyway.
      Gee I really hope you get something out of this ,you completely deserve it. A lot of guts .

      All the best amigo.
       
      • Like Like x 1
    2. Dhaval
      Buzzed

      Dhaval Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      4 months
    3. Hopeful
      Wishful

      Hopeful Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      06/13
      First of all, I have to say that I am excited about your search for a treatment. All the 'second-order' treatment methods that are normally recommended seem to treat not the condition itself, but rather decrease the perception with relaxation/lifestyle changes, directly or indirectly. This stem cell treatment, though, seems, to me, to treat the core of the problem.

      I am not a professional, though I have been studying the ear and hearing at university. My humble theory is that the vast majority (if not all) of tinnitus cases are linked to damaged inner hair cells (IHC). I have little faith in audiograms (for this purpose at least) since they only measure hearing at certain discrete frequencies. 'Why do I have a normal audiogram?', is a common question. 'Well, you hear rather normal at 250Hz, 0.5 kHz, 1kHz, 2kHz, 4kHz, 8kHz and possibly 12,5kHz." What happens in between these frequencies? And above? The cochlea is a continous structure, so why rely only on these frequencies? Well, possibly because the audiograms were created to compare hearing abilities in normal situations (and nowadays to assist in the tuning of hearing aids). If you dont hear the frequency range 8192-8113 Hz very well, then it is no problem for your hearing abilities, but for the tinnitus this is more than enough (?).

      Then why did I have my tinnitus out of nowhere? Without noice damage? Well, this process is of course not understood. The trigger mechanism must be the biggest question to answer in the tinnitus research. But firstly there is no rule stating that tinnitus should come right after the damage of the IHC, secondly these damages can come from many more things than noise exposure. Look at all the medicins that are described as ototoxic. Antidepressants, for example. Why should chemical inbalances in the body not be able to create the same ototoxicity?

      I think, that in the case that we could regenerate all original IHC the tinnitus could possibly be reversed. Or maybe I just hope so? :)

      Well, this is just my own tinnitus philosophy - I am sure we all have one.

      Now to my question. I have tried to read through the posts and found no answer to the following question:

      'How does your treatment make the stem cells grow to become IHC? Is some kind of 'direction drug/method' used?If no such thing is in play, then why/how does this procedure possibly go against the common conception that IHC are impossible to regrow? Does your treatment have anything to do with the new famous LY41175?'

      Best luck!

      EDIT: I found some answer to my question on page 2 (peptide injections explained by @attheedgeofscience).

      Still, I would be interested in the specific name of the injection.
       
    4. Dhaval
      Buzzed

      Dhaval Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      4 months
      @Hopeful

      Firstly. I like your screen name.

      Although I have a chemistry background. Can you explain@ atttheedgeofscience post that describes the procedure (sorry to be nagging about this) but it seems a very logical question one which some1 in the know of it can explain (especially since you are of the Medical field)

      Agree with your view on IHC. But still there has to be a way for the brain to tune it out. Or is it that the damage to very selective IHCs and further inability of the brain to recruit any surrounding cells leads to this. I have this theory of tonotopic maps and tinnitus. You can get more here.

      https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/tinnitus-and-tonotopic-reorganization.1923/

      Would like your comments. Cheers and as someone said hope is a good thing and sometimes the only thing.

      Cheers
       
    5. Hopeful
      Wishful

      Hopeful Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      06/13
      @Dhaval

      First of all I do not have a medical background. I am a student of sound and acoustics and have only basic knowledge about the hearing system. All my oppinions are pure speculation, so do not take any of my words for a fact.

      To your first question: This is the quote:

      I do not know much about stem cell therapy, but my naive logic is convinced that stem cells do not simply flow around the body and repair any damage you might have to simply restore infant perfection. So what method does the treatment discussed in this thread use to guide the cells? Again without having any knowledge about this I assume that this must be one of the biggest challenges in stem cell treatment.

      Why is it, by the way, that we do not simply inject the stem cells directly into the inner ear? Too fragile a structure? Too hard to reach?

      To your comment about tonotopy: When you damage IHC the tonotopic map indeed shifts. For example, if you have more hearing loss on one ear than the other, you will hear different pitches on each ear (known as 'diplacusis'). This is, though, a continous shift. What you are talking about is a shift of another character? Or maybe a 'hole' in the map so no stimuli is treated as a certain frequency? For the latter to be true you could try to sweep a tone passing your tinnitus frequency range and see if you notice any dips?
       
    6. Dhaval
      Buzzed

      Dhaval Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      4 months
      Well apologies for mis understanding it wrong. Me to hope that it works cause mine is absolutely terrible and it keeps shifting and so does my hearing. Is it possible that that's bcoz of the phenomenon you talk about.

      What I experience is that sometimes sounds are too sharp and at other times they sound normal. Sometimes sounds don't seem to change intensity even when you move away from the source (or atleast the perception is such). And then at other times it appears normal. My brain is struggling to naked out wats happening.

      Interesting that you mention carrying out a sweep. Any idea how I can do that.

      Cheers and apologies again......and peace

      Dhaval
       
    7. Hopeful
      Wishful

      Hopeful Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      06/13
      As we are drifting away from the topic I suggest to carry on an eventual continuation in another thread. If you want to listen to all frequencies continous in time, try to google/youtube'sine sweep'. Remember that quality is not always good neither do all the promised frequencies always exist. Remember to keep the volume down!
       
    8. jes
      Familiar

      jes Member Benefactor

      Location:
      copenhagen denmark
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2012
      To be positive I hope the stemcels goes to the innerear and regenerate so we al can get Peace.
      On the negative side they inject snakeoil to feet the t demon.
       
    9. Hopeful
      Wishful

      Hopeful Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      06/13
      • Like Like x 1
    10. david c

      david c Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2012
      This was interesting to read about and really hope it works for you edge of science - it's a very brave thing to have undertaken. Would be great if you could continue to keep us updated with how things work out. All the best.
       
    11. Hudson
      Cowboy

      Hudson Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      2003
      • Informative Informative x 1
    12. James White
      Anime

      James White Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Toulouse, France
      Tinnitus Since:
      April 2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Maybe loud music. Not sure.
      The conclusion is interesting and seems to correlate with what @attheedgeofscience paid for. If it's that simple, i don't understand why it's not emerging faster. I hope we'll know more in the near future.
       
    13. Hopeful
      Wishful

      Hopeful Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      06/13

      The conclusion is very interisting. It could be that simple. There's yet no answer whether repairing the cochlea would/could reverse tinnitus. We haven't heard about it since clinical trials on restoring IHC have so far only been attempted on mice and guinea pigs (as far as I know).

      But tinnitus researchers are interested too. The British Tinnitus Association thinks it's 'worth a special mention' (http://www.tinnitus.org.uk/the-top-ten-tinnitus-research-uncertainties).
       
    14. cmurem

      cmurem Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      08/05/2012
      Do you have some level of hearing loss?
       
    15. Hopeful
      Wishful

      Hopeful Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      06/13
      If @attheedgeofscience's treatment shows results, how many of you are willing to try it out?
       
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    16. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Markku
      Inspired

      Markku Founder Staff Podcast Patron Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Syringing
      I would wait for more experiences.

      After all, his tinnitus is still in the (sub)-acute stage, having started in April. If he notices improvement, it is impossible to say for certain whether it would have happened regardless of the stem cell injections.

      As a whole, it is still too experimental to my liking.

      If my tinnitus was completely intolerable & I was in significant pain due to it, my opinion could be different.
       
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    17. Hopeful
      Wishful

      Hopeful Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      06/13

      Is the money or the treatment the main reason?
       
    18. cmurem

      cmurem Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      08/05/2012
      If this man comes up with his T is %90 better, how can we understand whether he is habituated or his inner ear partially or fully restored. It would be mistaken if a concrete and satisfying result is not presented. If he has some level of hearing loss for example, he must indicate it and periodically must go hearing tests to seek any improvement has happened and share the -before and later- audio tests with us.
       
    19. Hopeful
      Wishful

      Hopeful Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      06/13

      First of all: Since @attheedgeofscience is not affiliated with the stem cell business (at least nothing, beside the fact that 25.000 USD is a lot money to spend on unproven treatment, points in that direction), sharing his treatment experience with us is a very kind act. He is the first in this forum to undergo stem cell treatment for tinnitus.

      Since he has allready posted a pre-treatment audiogram, I agree with you, that an audiogram showing an improvement would indicate that the treatment has had an affect. Whether an eventual improvement in tinnitus level would be due to the treatment is impossible to know. One man, one treatment is never enough to postulate that a treatment works. And as @Markku pointed out above: 04/2013 means that the tinnitus is still in the acoute stage.

      However, I am sure that improvements in tinnitus level would induce hope in many tinnitus sufferers, though not many, probably, would undergo the treatment.
       
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    20. cmurem

      cmurem Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      08/05/2012
      4 months post treatment, the below shows my hearing. L = Left hear before treatment, L1 after treatment. The results are in dB's. I would like to get the treatment done again as I think that I would gain an extra 20-25db, but I cannot afford another $20,000. Had I known what I do today, I would have asked Cryocord in Malaysia (who did the treatment), to store some of my fat . That way I would not have to get Liposuction done again, which cost approximately $4000. I think that it is best to get round 1 done, then round 2, 6 months later, so your body does not start recognising the stem cells as invaders and your immune system reacts accordingly.

      1000 L:0, L1:0, R:0, R1:0
      1050 L:20, L1:10, R:10, R1:10
      2000: L:10, L1:10, R:0, R1:0
      3000: L:35, L1:10, R:25, R1:0
      4000: L:65, L1:30, R:30, R1:10
      6000: L:70, L1:50, R:65, R1:40
      8000: L:75, L1:55, R:70, R1:500

      L.Francis (August 12, 2011 at 3:34 AM)

      This is another stem cell treatment story..It seems that 20 db improvement costs 20.000$ (if it is true)
       
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    21. Hopeful
      Wishful

      Hopeful Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      06/13

      Where is this story from? Do you have anymore details?
       
    22. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Markku
      Inspired

      Markku Founder Staff Podcast Patron Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Syringing
      • Like Like x 2
    23. mick

      mick Member Benefactor

      Location:
      USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2012
      Thanks for the update. I'm so glad to hear that (so far anyway) you have not experienced any negative outcomes. I think the non-tinnitus related changes are certainly due to the stem cells as you said. Your achilles tendonitis was probably more correctly tendonosis meaning cell death in the tendon. Normal physical therapy of stretching and concentric exercises for strengthing is not effective for this. In fact when this is done the achilles can in fact become weaker because under those circumstances the wrong kind of collogen (a less strong collogen that is normally present in tendon tissue) is made by your body. You know the wrong collogen is made if you develop small bumps on your tendon at the most tender spots. The bumps develop because the tissue becomes stretched as a result of the weaker collogen. I went through this and it took years for my achilles to get better. The correct treatment is little stretching, eccentric exercises (load the muscles while extending it rather than contracting it), and anything you can do to increase blood flow to the tendon without straining it (ice, heat, some medications). The achilles has very little vascularization and that makes it very difficult for cells to regenerate after injury, and for dead cell material and metabolites to be ferried away. In my case, I found compression stockings to be fabulously helpful. Clearly, getting stem cells or any growth factors to that area can kick off cell proliferation to replace the dead cells and that appears to be what happened in your case.

      Looking forward to more updates.
       
    24. cmurem

      cmurem Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      08/05/2012
      I think it is normal for someone to be sceptical or even be angry about these treatments. But they should firstly consider the drugs such as betaserc, vastarel, notropil etc. sold for also hearing loss and tinnitus without any evidence in clinical trials and only thought to be blood congestive, cell regenerative etc.. Ten millions of dollars from the patients are wasted every year for these drugs. Ofcourse i am sceptical to this expensive treatments but also to the mainstream scientific assessments because of the inconsistencies and disingenuity in the medical science.
       
    25. Erlend
      Question it

      Erlend Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Scandinavia
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2013
      So if your tinnitus is less loud than 20 dB, you would be cured? Could this fix hyperacusis as well?
       
      • Good Question Good Question x 1
    26. Erlend
      Question it

      Erlend Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Scandinavia
      Tinnitus Since:
      05/2013
      But they do grab this as an opportunity to do some sort of research, don't they? In that case it would at least be a contribution.
       
    27. cmurem

      cmurem Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      08/05/2012
      Hearing loss with dizziness, tinnitus, hyperacusis, fullness sensation, pain all refer to impairment of the cochlea and related neurons. While the metabolic stimulus is eliminated, if the body restores any organ by the stem cells why wouldn't the symptoms disappear?
       
    28. Hopeful
      Wishful

      Hopeful Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      06/13
    29. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      Markku
      Inspired

      Markku Founder Staff Podcast Patron Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Syringing
      I kindly asked him to come back and update us. Hope to get a reply.
       
      • Like Like x 1
    30. EricMI

      EricMI Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/11
      So what about those symptoms with no hearing loss or impairment?

      I have on 4 occasions gotten a very slight case of vertigo over 4 year time period. Usually when exiting an elevator after a long ride of 10 floors or more.

      My tinnitus worsens to a great degree with a feeling of fullness but it is not permanent, usually follows dehydration, or allergy season like we are in now. I also cannot pop/crack my ears with the internal muscles on the one side where my tinnitus is.

      Once the full feeling goes away the tinnitus reduces to a barely noticeable level after 12-24 hours.

      I test perfect on hearing tests and even for my age, 41, I've done the "you can hear" high pitch tests and I fit with my age group.

      The only thing consistent is my tinnitus which varies from a 2 to a 5, 3+ being with the full feeling. I've gone months at a 2-3.
       

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