Outdoor Concert & Tinnitus

Discussion in 'Support' started by ampumpkin, Jun 9, 2014.

    1. MikeA
      Musical

      MikeA Member

      Location:
      USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      1992
      I've read several peer-reviewed journal articles about attenuation provided with partial, normal, and full insertion of foam earplugs. Photos included. But, OK, let's assume these plugs offer only 25 dB attenuation (a full 25% less than the rating) under normal insertion. 98 - 25 = 73 dB. At this level I'm comfortable taking my chances for one hour a couple times a year. For the next few anyway. A good test of effectiveness is to check that covering ears tightly with hands results in no noticeable change in noise level.
       
    2. Grace
      No Mood

      Grace Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/14/2013
      73 db is more then fine a couple times a year. I dont know about everyone else but daily traffic, grocery stores and such are as loud or louder then 73 db. I know hearing damage is cumulative but as long as your not putting your head in pa system we should all be just fine with that. A bar is typically on a noisy night 100 db mayb a lil louder and with 33 db earplugs it brought it down real quiet so i feel safe with that taking my chances rather then avoiding. But yeah definally make sure those things are in good.. I can tell anyways when mine are in good.
       
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    3. erik
      Cool

      erik Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Washington State, USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/15/2012 or earlier?
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Most likely hearing loss
      If it is super loud protect your ears. If normal everyday sound, there's not much else you can do unless you wear ear plugs all day long and that is not advised. Most everyone is going to have some age related hearing loss, that is just what happens over time due to many other factors with noise exposure being just one of them. For best protection, it is best to bite the bullet and get some good custom molded ones.
       
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    4. Zimichael

      Zimichael Member Benefactor

      Location:
      N. California
      Tinnitus Since:
      (1956) > 1980 > 2006 > 2012 > (2015)
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Ac. Trauma & Ac.Trauma + Meds.
      Geeez ATEOS....you sure make points incredibly clear and well documented. Bravo big time!

      I can't hardly believe that picture/poster of the military and IED's as it's one of the things I have been sqwauking about for a while. That's great - though maybe not clear enough for many, as how many of us humans believe until it happens to us?!

      Where the hell do you find this great stuff??!!! (No need to answer that really - but please keep doing it).

      Take care, Zimichael
       
    5. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      ampumpkin
      Amused

      ampumpkin Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Montreal
      Tinnitus Since:
      Onset: 12/2007 Increase: 04/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      2007: Meds(Antidepressant) 2014: Meds(Antibiotics)
      the show is tonight and I'm stressed :(!!
       
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    6. Ken219
      Frustrated

      Ken219 Member

      Location:
      New York Area
      Tinnitus Since:
      Summer of 1990
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise exposure?
      What amazes me even a third world country that allows its people to shoot guns freely. Don't they get Tinnitus?

      Not following your logic. 'I went to a club with ear plugs and took regular breaks I wasn't even near the music that long and my T came back stronger than ever,but if you're careful you should be fine and just try and enjoy the night.' You had protection your T increased. Why would you recommend someone go to a concert?

      Don't go! Your stress is telling you not to go!

      Your pictures scare the hell of me. It is too late for me. You should post that stuff on Rock and Roll blogs. It wouldn't surprise me if the government is working on a weapon to permemently destroy people's inner ear.
       
    7. bill 112
      Fine

      bill 112 Member

      Location:
      Republic Of Ireland
      Tinnitus Since:
      02/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise exposure
      If shes more careful than I was she will probably be just fine,after all its an outdor concert were talking about and not a club and there is a lot more she can do to protect herself i.e stay well back from the speakers,wear earplugs and take regular breaks if needs be.My earplugs had fallen out unknown to me for about 20 minutes or so and that probably didnt help but in my opinion an outdoor concert will be alot safer to the ear as its not an enclosed environment,heck if the venue is large enough she could be half a kilometre from the stage which in my opinion would be safe.At the end of the day its her decision.
       
    8. Tenna
      Anime

      Tenna Member

      Location:
      Europe
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2013
      Despite notions and facts presented on hearing treshold (for instance in pictures of ototoxicity induced damage, in a noise related matter, I know the ultimate damage is equivalent, however I find it slight misleading), facts are majority don't suffer these issues as a result of a concert. As much as we can count the dB meter at a venue to do the math stating everyone at the place should be damaged goods according to our facts, they aren't.
      I don't know your origin on t, I do know the damage-meter to our hearing, but what I've come to know is many of us in here represent a very few in general which clearly seems to deviate from the norm.

      What I'm trying to get at is lots of people who have t continues going to concerts well protected with no problems, and that you'll get a pretty onesided reply by asking in here. :)
      Many pros and cons indeed. Good luck! (And great concert if you go!)
       
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    9. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      ampumpkin
      Amused

      ampumpkin Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Montreal
      Tinnitus Since:
      Onset: 12/2007 Increase: 04/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      2007: Meds(Antidepressant) 2014: Meds(Antibiotics)
      @Tenna my T is from ototoxic meds (anti-depressant in 2007 and antibiotics in 2014 -spike-).
       
    10. citigirl13
      Happy

      citigirl13 Member

      Location:
      North Yorkshire, England
      Tinnitus Since:
      17/1/14
      If yours is from toxicity then there is a good chance you will be fine. Wear earplugs, stay away from the speakers, take regular breaks and leaves if your ears hurt then you should be okay. Of course I cannot say for certain and you need to be sure that you are wearing the right earplugs, but like I said, if you have taken the right precautions you should be fine.

      Try to enjoy yourself if you decide to go. Don't let the stress get to you, otherwise it won't be worth going.
       
    11. attheedgeofscience
      No Mood

      attheedgeofscience Member Podcast Patron Mighty Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Denmark
      Tinnitus Since:
      Resolved since 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      See information page
      Just about anyone who attends a concert without ear protection will end up with a temporary threshold shift on their hearing curve. That means damage has been done . The damage is recoverable if 1) the damage is not too great and 2) the ears are allowed to rest for a prolonged period of time afterwards.
       
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    12. attheedgeofscience
      No Mood

      attheedgeofscience Member Podcast Patron Mighty Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Denmark
      Tinnitus Since:
      Resolved since 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      See information page
      There's an argument I have heard more than once on this forum. A damaged bundle of stereocilia is still a damaged bundle of stereocilia. Whether from noise or ototoxicity. Both cases are visible and the impact can be observed on an audiogram and/or via an electron microscope.

      Someone with a knee strain - be it from running or doing squats at the gym - would also be advised to be careful with what they do with their knee...
       
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    13. Tenna
      Anime

      Tenna Member

      Location:
      Europe
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2013
      Exactly, and while 100% of all attending should have affected hearing, it is recoverable for the vast majority. It's odd
       
    14. alifalijohn

      alifalijohn Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      04/15/14
      Hello , have to go to an outdoor wedding, they are going to have a band and music cd, not sure if I should go , have t 10 weeks now , thinking about wearing ear plugs , not sure if this will help ..is it okay to wear custom made ear plugs, which I amthing about getting..your answer will be much appreciated thanks..you take care . Prayers you way !
       
    15. attheedgeofscience
      No Mood

      attheedgeofscience Member Podcast Patron Mighty Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Denmark
      Tinnitus Since:
      Resolved since 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      See information page
      Most of us are adults on this forum (or at least old enough to make decisions for ourselves). I cannot really say what anyone should or shouldn't do. And I don't want to take responsibility for anything, either.

      Personally, I would attend a wedding. These are rare events - and shouldn't be missed. The noise level would also be different than that of a concert. I think that going with earplugs of about 20-25db NRR is adequate (when used properly). 33db NRR is even better, but may block so much noise that a conversation can be hard to follow.

      I am against concerts for the simple reason that the "satisfaction" of going to a concert does not justify the risk of further acoustic trauma. Even if it is the last AC/DC concert ever to be played. A lifetime of suffering does not justify two hours of fun. In my opinion, at least. Others see things differently. And so be it.

      Instructions for the proper usage of foam-type earplugs:

      https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/it-will-get-better.5030/#post-50075
       
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    16. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      ampumpkin
      Amused

      ampumpkin Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Montreal
      Tinnitus Since:
      Onset: 12/2007 Increase: 04/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      2007: Meds(Antidepressant) 2014: Meds(Antibiotics)
      An update on my concert!

      I ended up going to the concert. I spoke with my dad and he said that I shouldn't let T control my life and he convinced me.

      I went to the store and bought -33db brand new plugs. I brought my ear muffs. I asked my friend to sit on the side of the stage so the speakers would not be in front of us. I kept my ear plugs the whole time. The sound wasn't that loud but it sure was too loud for me. I checked my plugs every 15 minutes and put them back properly.

      I was worried... so worried. But everythig turned out fine. I didn't hear my T at all with the ear plugs. I didn't feel like I needed to put my ear muffs on top of them. I was able to have a conversation with my friend and enjoy the music.

      Now, did I have a spike? No, not at all. My T was the exact same T when I got in the car to "listen" to it. The sound felt so comforting, like I was almost happy to hear it.

      Last night, I did thank my T for letting me have a wonderful evening out. I felt like a normal person and I had no consequences. But of course, I took the appropriate precaution.

      This event almost makes me feel at peace with my T. My T is not my friend but almost. I am tired of fighting it and you may think it's stupid but I want to live my life hand in hand with it.

      As I'm writing you this, I'm almost crying. I feel such relief...
       
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    17. here2help

      here2help Member

      @ampumpkin, your last post is one of my favorite posts I’ve read on Tinnitus Talk. I think it’s fantastic that you decided to go to the concert and that you took your dad’s excellent advice to not let tinnitus control your life. I was also very happy to read the excellent advice @Grace and @MikeA gave you. Something to keep in mind is that even if you had a spike after the concert when wearing hearing protection, it would not be evidence of damage. People’s tinnitus spikes for all kinds of reasons and nearly always returns to baseline when some time passes. Remember, the more meaning we attach to tinnitus, the more we hand it the reins.

      One small suggestion: Don’t thank your tinnitus for your wonderful evening. Thank yourself for taking an important step forward.

      There is a lot of scare and misinformation about this subject on the Internet. Here are a few I've come across.

      Going to a concert risks further acoustic trauma.

      People with tinnitus and people who do not have tinnitus are perfectly safe around loud sound, whether in a loud club, a busy restaurant, or a concert in an indoor or outdoor venue provided we wear correctly-inserted hearing protection with a sufficiently high noise reduction rating (NRR).

      An indoor venue with loud sound is less safe than an outdoor venue with loud sound.

      The sound is more contained in an indoor venue, but it is safe to be around loud sound when indoors provided we wear hearing protection.

      Ear protection devices do not protect equally across all frequencies.

      It is true that over-the-counter ear plugs do not evenly attenuate sound across all frequencies, but a good pair of custom-made musician's ear plugs do an excellent job in evenly attenuating sound and do a superb job in providing protection across a wide range of frequencies. The trade-off is that while we can hear things more clearly (i.e., not muffled) with custom-made musician’s earplugs, over-the-counter foam earplugs with a noise reduction rating of 33 provide more protection. (See below.)

      The maximum reduction provided by earplugs with a noise reduction rating of 33 in somewhat higher frequencies like 6-8 kHz is 33 dB. Unfortunately, earplugs with an NRR of 33 provide less than 33 dB protection in the lower frequencies, so we get less protection than we think.

      This is false. As an example, Flents Soft Foam Ear Plugs, an excellent over-the-counter brand, have an NRR of 33. These ear plugs attenuate sound by 33 dB at 125 Hz and provide protection in the mid-to-high 30s in the frequency range of 250 Hz to 2 kHz. Surprisingly, the maximum attenuation provided at 6 kHz and at 8 kHz is 45.4 dB and 46 dB, respectively, not 33 dB.

      @alifalijohn, you will be fine to go to the wedding. Wear your custom made ear plugs and make sure to use the 25 dB filters. Have a good time!

      here2help
       
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    18. citigirl13
      Happy

      citigirl13 Member

      Location:
      North Yorkshire, England
      Tinnitus Since:
      17/1/14
      Woohoo! I am so glad for you! I remember when I decide to fly despite the fact that my T could get worse. I was so nervous, but when everything went okay I was so happy! It is a great feeling when you do what you want, despite T.
       
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    19. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      ampumpkin
      Amused

      ampumpkin Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Montreal
      Tinnitus Since:
      Onset: 12/2007 Increase: 04/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      2007: Meds(Antidepressant) 2014: Meds(Antibiotics)
      @here2help thank you for your post... I would also suggest to @alifalijohn to attend the wedding with the ear plugs.

      In the future, I will try to live a life as normal as possible. The only thing I will now avoid in the future are clubs.
       
    20. alifalijohn

      alifalijohn Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      04/15/14
      Read your blog, Felth so happy for you.I will go to the wedding , I will give you an update, God Bless you!
       
    21. Jay M
      Thinking

      Jay M Member

      Location:
      South Carolina, USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      4/4/14
      Driving around, most cars produce about 68-70dBs. Add a radio, passenger conversation and or window(s) down and you will have 73dB or more.
       
    22. attheedgeofscience
      No Mood

      attheedgeofscience Member Podcast Patron Mighty Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Denmark
      Tinnitus Since:
      Resolved since 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      See information page
      To those interested in hearing protection.

      A couple of remarks on NRR. The NRR stated on earplug packages for various frequencies are reduction ratings under ideal laboratory testing. The effective noise reduction in a real environment is somewhat less (approximately 50% of NRR - as a rule of thumb, see below). [For earmuffs, the rule-of-thumb is an effective noise reduction of 75% of NRR; please note that NRR values are not additive when wearing both earmuffs and earplugs]

      How does NRR change decibels of exposure?*
      When hearing protection is worn, your level of exposure to noise is based on the NRR rating of the protection device being used. Keep in mind, however, that while the NRR is measured in decibels, the hearing protector being used does not reduce the surrounding decibel level by the exact number of decibels associated with that protector’s NRR. For example, if you are at a rock concert where the level of noise exposure is 100 dB and you are wearing earplugs with an NRR 33dB, your level of exposure would not be reduced to 67 dB. Instead, to determine the actual amount of decibel deduction applied (when decibels are measured dBA which is the most common), you take the NRR number (in dB), subtract seven, and then divide by two. Given the previous example, your noise reduction equation would look like the following: (33-7)/2 = 13. This means that if you are at a rock concert with a level of noise exposure at 100 dB and you are wearing a hearing protector with an NRR 33 dB, your new level of noise exposure is 87 dB. If you are wearing a product with an NRR of 27 it would deduct 10 decibels (27-7/2=10).

      *Source: Cooper Safety Products and Occupational Safety and Health Administration.

      So now you know why attending a loud AD/DC concert playing at 110-115 db can still be hazardous - with earplugs...

      Unfortunately that was something this TT-member had to learn the hard way:

      www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/a-whole-new-world.2572

      And now members of this forum also know why I prefer to err on the side of caution. After all, missing out on a concert is not the end of the world. But developing tinnitus can be the end of world. Quite literally, sometimes.

      Who you choose to take advice from is of course up to you - misinformation or not. But, the above is my advice. And at the end of the day: it is your ears and not mine that will suffer from your decisions in life. Good luck with all the concerts...
       
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    23. Ken219
      Frustrated

      Ken219 Member

      Location:
      New York Area
      Tinnitus Since:
      Summer of 1990
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise exposure?
      It is so true. Manufacturers can rate anything falsely. Who will challenge them? It is a crap shoot.
      Unless one has the resources to verify remember trust but verify.
       
    24. Tenna
      Anime

      Tenna Member

      Location:
      Europe
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2013
      @attheedgeofscience good info there.
      And it's appreciated that you provide general info on such thing to clear out misunderstandings. Some protection applies to some, not to others. Same goes for your final conclusion being to miss out on a concert, just as tinnitus can be the end of the world to some, so can that. :)
      It's a big deal to many
       
    25. Grace
      No Mood

      Grace Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/14/2013
      So were not even protecting our ears much even with earplugs are we? Bunch of bs.. Instead of 32 db they should put 12 on it..
       
    26. attheedgeofscience
      No Mood

      attheedgeofscience Member Podcast Patron Mighty Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Denmark
      Tinnitus Since:
      Resolved since 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      See information page
      Well, the way the decibel scale is constructed means that the energy carried by a sound wave doubles for every 3 db. A 12-decibel reduction therefore means a 4-fold reduction in the energy intensity that a person is exposed to. So actually 12 db is more than you think. It is also the reason why very brief exposure to - say - 125 decibels* is most often harmless, but why even very brief exposure to 140 decibels* is quite likely to cause permanent injury. The difference of 15 db may not seem like much, but because of the way decibels are measured, it makes a big difference.

      *125 db = eg. ambulance siren, 140 db = eg. improvised explosive difference or IED (like the ones in Iraq or the ones at the Boston Marathon bombings, last year; several of the people who were mutilated at this event also ended up with tinnitus - not known to that many...).

      But, yes - I of course agree with you in the sense that if you think you are being protected by the full NRR listed on the package, then you are wrong. Which is why I decided to write the post in the first place. Because apparently "there is so misinformation out there", I am told...
       
    27. attheedgeofscience
      No Mood

      attheedgeofscience Member Podcast Patron Mighty Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Denmark
      Tinnitus Since:
      Resolved since 2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      See information page
      I don't know if you truly stand behind that comment - but, I am assuming you did since you wrote it? I realize it may be intended as a "joke". But, do you honestly think going to a concert and ending up with permanent tinnitus is worth it? For the rest of your life? Seriously...?

      Here is an example from the real world of what impact tinnitus can have on a person's life (I will use myself as an example):

      Non-refundable medical expenses: > USD 50.000
      Travel costs: USD 10.000
      Lost revenue/income from my business activities: USD 100.000
      Future medical expenses: about USD 30.000

      So in the timeframe of about 1½ years, tinnitus will have cost me towards USD 200.000,- (and if you think I am exagerating my stated amounts, feel free to contact Markku for confirmation; I have as a goodwill gesture towards this forum documented everything I done in terms of my experimental medical treatments).

      And that's just the economic side of things. I haven't even begun to examine the non-economic impact of tinnitus on my life.

      So I don't know - to me that's a pretty big deal. But, perhaps it isn't to others. Who can say?

      (I think I am spending too much time on this forum).
       
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    28. AUTHOR
      AUTHOR
      ampumpkin
      Amused

      ampumpkin Member Benefactor

      Location:
      Montreal
      Tinnitus Since:
      Onset: 12/2007 Increase: 04/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      2007: Meds(Antidepressant) 2014: Meds(Antibiotics)
      @attheedgeofscience maybe it's not spending too much time on the forum the problem but being negative in general. Letting go costs 0$.
       
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    29. here2help

      here2help Member

      @Tenna, @Ken219, @alifalijohn, @ampumpkin, and @Grace, all hearing protection devices are required to be tested in a laboratory to determine their noise reduction rating (NRR). @attheedgeofscience writes (quite incorrectly) that the "effective noise reduction [of a hearing protection device] in a real environment is somewhat less (approximately 50% of NRR ..." In other words, he believes earplugs provide about half the protection in a real-world environment that they do in a laboratory. For example, in his opinion, an earplug with a 32 NRR would attenuate only 16 dB when using dBC noise levels.

      He is incorrect.

      The noise reduction provided by a hearing protection device in a laboratory is identical to the protection it provides in any other environment.

      The OSHA recommendation to use 50% reduction when estimating field attenuation in the workplace is called de-rating. This guideline has nothing to do with earplugs and everything to do with the people who wear them. When an earplug is not correctly inserted into the ear, it provides considerably less protection. Studies performed in workplaces have shown that some people know how to properly insert earplugs and some do not. These studies indicate in a number of cases the attenuation achieved in the workplace is identical to the NRR rating shown on the packaging; but they also show in a number of other cases attenuation can be much lower than that which is achieved in a laboratory.

      Due to the wide variation in the amount of protection achieved by people who wear a hearing protection device in the workplace, OSHA wrote a guideline to de-rate the NRR of hearing protection devices by 50% to take into account people who do not know how to correctly insert or fit a hearing protection device.

      The bottom line is that earplugs provide the same amount of protection shown on the packaging provided we know how to correctly insert them.

      A side note: When using two hearing protectors (i.e., earplugs and earmuffs), OSHA recommends adding 5 dB to the NRR of the hearing protection device with the higher NRR rating.

      *****

      While I was editing my post, @Grace asked a key, cut-to-the-chase question. If she is wearing properly-fitted earplugs with a 33 NRR, and is in a 95 dB setting, will her hearing protection result in her being exposed to 62 dB?

      The short answer is "yes". The longer answer is your earplugs may enable you to be exposed to less than 62 dB at certain frequencies. (For more information, see the details on the packaging for your earplugs.)

      In the example I used earlier in the thread, Flents Soft Foam Ear Plugs have an NRR of 33. These ear plugs attenuate sound by 33 dB at 125 Hz and provide protection in the mid-to-high 30s in the frequency range of 250 Hz to 2 kHz. Surprisingly, the maximum attenuation provided at 6 kHz and at 8 kHz is 45.4 dB and 46 dB, respectively.

      here2help
       
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    30. Grace
      No Mood

      Grace Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/14/2013
      Ok so lets say i properly fit an earplug that is 33 db.. Which i always do and there never sticking out and im out somewhere thats 95 db.. Will that bring it down to 67db or no?
       
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