PQQ (Pyrroloquinoline quinone) and Neurogenesis

Discussion in 'Alternative Treatments and Research' started by DebInAustralia, Jun 22, 2016.

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    1. DebInAustralia

      DebInAustralia Member Benefactor Team Research

      Location:
      Geelong, Victoria
      Tinnitus Since:
      30/12/13
      Re neurogenesis...

      14665594416461127638971.jpg
       
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    2. Cityjohn
      Studious

      Cityjohn Member Team Research

      Location:
      Amsterdam
      Tinnitus Since:
      5:10 PM 03/02/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Food poisoning.
      Hmm this is quite the interesting find. Where was this presented in?
      Even though it's 5 AM... I started sifting through literature to see how this works. Seeing as this stimulates a part of the same things that are needed and in support of light therapy protocols I may actually use this during my therapy. Which I'm happy to so say is getting closer and closer as I further hash out the points of incidence and design the actual headgear. I'm now a week away from starting my experiments and uni lab access.

      Apparantly PQQ is a redox cofactor that our cells can use quite well for mitochondrial biogenesis which is the absolute key in restoring neural pathways. Some people are trying hard to push this as a vitamin, and it is now being sold as such but has lost it's status since the human body can produce up to 400 nanograms of it daily, which I have to say is not that much. To put things into perspective, the human body turns over it's own bodyweight in ATP every day. It is either used or directly recycled if not used immediately next to the mitochondria. So the major problem here is not that we don't have the energy but that the mitochondria near a neural injury are inactive due to depolarization, and since neurons are quite small, and synthaphilin keeps other mitochondria in place, there are no mitochondria available for rescue operations. I'm betting on LT having an effect on the depolarized mitochondria near the injury, and that it will stimulate the production of neural factors that help guide dendritic sprouting. PQQ would change this quite drastically, since it apparently provides the cellular respiration with a redox element that is very easily used in mitochondrial genesis, and it also seems to stimulate neural growth factor quite significantly. The two would go hand in hand like few things in this world do.

      I'm ordering this stuff right away, and I really think this is one of the best finds on this forum, thank you.

      Here is some very relevant literature:
      http://www.jbc.org/content/285/1/142.full
      http://jn.nutrition.org/content/136/2/390.full
       
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    3. Cityjohn
      Studious

      Cityjohn Member Team Research

      Location:
      Amsterdam
      Tinnitus Since:
      5:10 PM 03/02/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Food poisoning.
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    4. Markku
      Inspired

      Markku Director Staff Benefactor Hall of Fame Team Trobalt Team Tech Team Awareness Team Research

      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Syringing
      I have taken PQQ (40 mg per day, divided in two doses) along with 200 mg of Ubiquinol for a few months, no change in my tinnitus.

      It seems to be an interesting substance though. @Cityjohn's analysis above, as usual, is very insightful and now I might resume it... for the long-term.

      Thanks @DebInAustralia for starting this thread!
       
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    5. Markku
      Inspired

      Markku Director Staff Benefactor Hall of Fame Team Trobalt Team Tech Team Awareness Team Research

      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2010
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Syringing
    6. DebInAustralia

      DebInAustralia Member Benefactor Team Research

      Location:
      Geelong, Victoria
      Tinnitus Since:
      30/12/13
      Sorry! I meant to come back and post the link. Thanks Markku...

      Hope this is of help
       
    7. Cityjohn
      Studious

      Cityjohn Member Team Research

      Location:
      Amsterdam
      Tinnitus Since:
      5:10 PM 03/02/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Food poisoning.
      That's very useful info. Would you say you get a lot of sunlight in and around the head?
      Knowing the mechanism of PQQ it looks pretty clear that it will improve the efficacy of LT by anywhere between 30-200% which is why I think this is such a great find :)

      The experimentally determined function of PQQ would suggest that taking PQQ without providing more energy to the cells would not be much benefit, in fact the cellular energy budget may be strained slightly more. There are massive improvements in potential throughput because of 16% more mitochondria, 45% oxygen consumption, 40% increase in Nuclear Respitory Factor (NGF-1, & 2), 50-250% PGC-1a expression and so forth. It even specifically targets Cytochrome C Oxidase expression, which is exactly that protein that is sensitive to red right and is proposed as the primary mediator of LT. All of this doesn't necessarily help the brain because each cell still keeps track of its energy budget, and if there is no budget it won't commit to big renovations.

      I've managed to examine a few things things concerning energy delivery to the brain stem. I have seen that cartilage acts as fiber optic cables when it comes to visible red light, and that muscle, blood, and bone marrow seem to stop it in its tracks. By irradiating 10 key points on the head with around 25Watts of light (after heat losses) I'm fairly certain I can get around 1W near the brain stem, which is thousands if not millions of times more than anything gained from sunlight. All I have to do for myself still is build a comfortable head rig :)

      LT and PQQ seem to go very well hand in hand, it would be off not to take PQQ during a LT treatment. I'm hoping that the combined throughput potential or increase in power, with an increase in available energy will be more likely to yield results.
      I do foresee some problems though. The area around neuronal injury renders mitochondria inactive, and I don't see why that would change at the moment. If you have more Cytochrome C oxidase everywhere light will find it harder to penetrate deeper... and other small doubts such as this.
       
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    8. Path Maker

      Path Maker Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      acoustic
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    9. Ears Hurt

      Ears Hurt Member

      Location:
      USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Whiplash or Buzzer (abuse from ex)
      I ran out last night and purchased a bottle.
       
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    10. Alue

      Alue Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
      Ordered some off Amazon prime. I love Amazon prime, takes care of all my impulse buying needs.
       
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    11. Ears Hurt

      Ears Hurt Member

      Location:
      USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Whiplash or Buzzer (abuse from ex)
      We might as well get an order together to buy in bulk. See what you started @DebInAustralia

      Now we just need @Cityjohn to invent, test, and start producing his lasers for us to purchase. No pressure John! You have your own little army of hope behind you!
       
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    12. Alue

      Alue Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
      That's real interesting @Cityjohn. Especially being able to conduct light through cartilage. Are there any other ways to exogenously provide energy to the cells besides light?
       
    13. undecided
      Fine

      undecided Member

      Location:
      Greece
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown.
      I read that CBD oil is also extremely effective against tinnitus. You should buy some.
       
    14. Zora
      Kick ass

      Zora Member

      Location:
      Germany
      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      1st time: Megaphone ;2nd time: headphones too loud
      i hope your being sarcastic?
       
    15. Cityjohn
      Studious

      Cityjohn Member Team Research

      Location:
      Amsterdam
      Tinnitus Since:
      5:10 PM 03/02/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Food poisoning.
      Please note that there's not much to say it would help against tinnitus on its own and even theoretically it only looks like it would only if you also supply the injury with enough, and I'd think also the other raw materials that a cell needs.
      Even so if you guys are going to take it every day I'd be very interested in any changes or lack thereof after 30 days.

      Funny you should mention that. I already looked into scheduling investor meetings to poke around as they often gather in and around Amsterdam, especially near science parks where my campus is located. I usually frequent these anyway. Paradoxically my goal seems to be to render this forum obsolete. If LT doesn't work though I'm afraid it's gonna take half a decade to learn enough about stem cell treatments to find out if it can be done 100% effectively.

      That's a really good question. In general cellular processes seem to be too complex to provide end products mid-process. The problem is that some, if not most processes are triggered by whats left from the previous process and would never be triggered if you provide an end product. My personal best principle is to give the body what it likes to use to run the factory and go by good theory and clinical research. Light really seems to be the key when it comes to certain processes in the mitochondria. It's worth mentioning that mitochondria are almost like bacteria, they're quite unique, and a protein in them seems to really like red light.
       
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    16. Path Maker

      Path Maker Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      acoustic
      Please do, @Cityjohn, and I'll spend the interim time figuring out how to be a contributor toward making you a rich man. :)
       
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    17. Everyloop

      Everyloop Member

      Generally PQQ decreases glutathione so people with tinnitus or hyperacusis presumably wouldn't want to use it.
       
    18. Bobby B
      Fine

      Bobby B Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      long term NIHL and recent acoustic trauma
      Oops ! Any reference ?
       
    19. Cityjohn
      Studious

      Cityjohn Member Team Research

      Location:
      Amsterdam
      Tinnitus Since:
      5:10 PM 03/02/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Food poisoning.
      Excellent point. I had not considered this at all. Any more sources on this? I couldn't find too many.

      Here it mentions quite a lot of cooperative interactions with glutathione, also mentioning:
      "PQQ has been shown to be cytotoxic to U937 leukemia cells, but not NIH3T3 nor L929 cells, in a dose-dependent manner.[143] Catalase treatment neutralized these effects, as they appear to be secondary to hydrogen peroxide production in cells which PQQ has been repeatedly shown to induce.[144] Superoxide dismutase had no effect on PQQ cytotoxicity, while glutathione or N-AcetylCysteine increased cytotoxicity 2-5fold without affecting the cells on their own (and thus working via PQQ by increasing H2O2 production form PQQ 1.5-2fold).[143] PQQ by itself decreased intracellular glutathione levels, and when glutathione was depleted (via BSO, an inhibitor of γ-glutamylcysteine synthetase) the apoptosis of cells morphed into necrosis, and this necrosis was still mediated by H2O2 due to being inhibited by catalase.[143]" https://examine.com/supplements/pyrroloquinoline-quinone/

      There's only one I could find myself on whether gluthione helps tinnitus.
      http://www.omicsonline.com/open-acc...ith-nacetyl-cysteine-jop-16-528.pdf?aid=18055

      Not much to worry about though. We have exceedingly more Glutathione than PQQ can use up and it's produced in the human body quite abundantly.
      It's also worth mentioning though that PQQ is itself an antioxidant around 1000 times more powerful than vitamin C, I couldn't find how Glutathione stacks up though but in that regard they have similar functions.
       
    20. Ears Hurt

      Ears Hurt Member

      Location:
      USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Whiplash or Buzzer (abuse from ex)
      @Cityjohn Okay, now I am confused. Is PQQ good to take with tinnitus and hyperacusis?

      I've already been taking NAC.
       
    21. Cityjohn
      Studious

      Cityjohn Member Team Research

      Location:
      Amsterdam
      Tinnitus Since:
      5:10 PM 03/02/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Food poisoning.
      Yeah it confuses me too sometimes :) Let's sum up all the facts;

      1. PQQ is the key chemical that enables the body to make more mitochondria.
      2. When nerve damage occurs along the auditory path in any of the synapses, the mitochondria are depolarized (inactive) and thus unable to power repair.
      3. Neurons do not contain many mitochondria, yet many of those are stuck in place they can not move to a damaged area to power repairs.
      4. Studies have shown that unsticking mitochondria through genetic manipulation allows animals to regrow nerves.
      5. A cell keeps track of its energy budget and does not commit to large tasks if there is not enough energy.

      Now there are some subtlety's here, like PQQ specifically stimulating Cytochrome C oxidase which is a redox protein factory that happens to use red light for its reactions. But the general logic here seems to be that any animals which have enough free mitochondria providing energy can regenerate the CNS.
      Since mitochondria is what LT proclaims to power through the protein Cytochrome C oxidase it would logically follow that LT would become more effective, that's why I'm so interested in it.

      PQQ has a symbiotic relationship with glutathione, they both team up to perform tasks more efficiently. But since PQQ is far more durable, it outlasts the Glutathione. This isn't a problem though because your body has massive amounts of Glutathione, and can produce it endlessly, so you'll never run out.
      Glutathione is being offered in some anti tinnitus pills and such combined with zinc and vitamin B as it is proposed that it attenuates (weakens) glutamate transmissions. This may be but I'll go out on a limb and say that I don't think you can raise your glutathione levels much with supplementation.

      It seems however that some cancerous cells don't absorb/produce glutathione anymore and when it's run out the waste products from PQQ damage the cell, and it dies through necrosis (cell destruction by attack) instead of being killed by PQQ and Glutathione together through apoptosis (programmed cell death). I guess that's the body's failsafe in fighting these specific cancer cells. Of course if you have no PQQ neither of those will happen.

      Without LT, more mitochondria are useful in the body, you'll burn more energy, etc. But there's absolutely nothing little to say that it would help tinnitus at all. In fact more mitochondria in a cell that receives equal amount of energy won't have a shred more power in total. Perhaps the power would be better distributed though, in which case you'd be making tinnitus better very slowly. Think a decade compared to high intensity deep LT, if LT is really the way to power those mitochondria.

      That being said PQQ is one of the 47 things that set us apart from monkeys. Given the history of lifeforms on earth a case could be made that cellular power turnover is what makes organisms healthy and able to regenerate. It's too bad we can't analyze a dinosaur with brain damage. I wonder if a crocodile can regenerate its CNS. Score! it does; http://wiredspace.wits.ac.za/handle/10539/18657

      So PQQ is one of the few puzzle pieces in neurogenesis. The others being energy, syntaphilin (mitochondrial anchors), and some neural growth factors chemically pointing the direction neurons should grow toward. Besides that it does provides the body with the ability to create more mitochondria which is a good thing for a great deal of things. Even weightlifters would benefit greatly because more ATP means more muscle strength. It's too bad that there aren't that many studies on mitochondrial counts and what is associated with it. I've only read about a few brain disorders that may be caused by having too few mitochondria. I guess Join the Dots would really help in rounding up the research on this.
       
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    22. Path Maker

      Path Maker Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      acoustic
      Thank you, cityjohn, for your time and posts.
       
    23. undecided
      Fine

      undecided Member

      Location:
      Greece
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown.
      Why would you say that?
      At least on person in this forum had a T decrease from CBD oil, I haven't seen any reports of PQQ reduces tinnitus.

      Oh ok, I am being sarcastic, you got me.
       
    24. gotyoubynuts

      gotyoubynuts Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      10/1990
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Concert
      That one person caused dozens of people order the oil, nobody else was helped by it. He just created a frenzy around CBD oil

      There is "one person was helped" for everything. One person was helped by Starbucks Hot Chocolate. I'm serious.
       
    25. undecided
      Fine

      undecided Member

      Location:
      Greece
      Tinnitus Since:
      04/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Unknown.
      Well, that's what I'm trying to point out @gotyoubynuts .
      There's seems to be some solid science behind CBD oil as a therapeutic option for various ailments and there seems to be some solid science behind this PQQ stuff.
      But does it/will it work? Call me a pessimist but I'd firmly say no.
       
    26. Alue

      Alue Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2016
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Acoustic Trauma
      Nobody said it worked on tinnitus, if you read what cityjohn wrote, it's something that may potentiate light therapy. Will that be of any benefit? Who knows, maybe not. Im skeptical too, but I find it interesting. But people get confused with getting excited about findings in research with expecting a cure.
       
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    27. Ears Hurt

      Ears Hurt Member

      Location:
      USA
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2012
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Whiplash or Buzzer (abuse from ex)
      Ultimately, everyone wants a cure. But in the meantime, anything that provides relief is a blessing.

      As for what works and what doesn't work, its all a process of learning. The Apple computer was built in a garage. Kudos to @Cityjohn for being as involved as he is for his efforts. It just takes one person to find the right combination to change things.
       
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    28. Everyloop

      Everyloop Member

      When you are around loud noise the ears use glutathione to repair themselves. If you run out of glutathione your ears cannot fix themselves. This is a possible reason why things that boost glutathione can help stop tinnitus from happening in the first place.

      Should PQQ deplete glutathione it may be unhelpful for people who are worried about their tinnitus getting louder.
       
    29. Path Maker

      Path Maker Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      12/2015
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      acoustic
      Exactly!

      Innovators are pioneers and pioneers are often located in garages (figuratively and literally) all around the world.
       
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    30. DebInAustralia

      DebInAustralia Member Benefactor Team Research

      Location:
      Geelong, Victoria
      Tinnitus Since:
      30/12/13
      Then supplement with nac to ensure adequate glutathione
       

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