Tinnitus Retraining Therapy

Discussion in 'Treatments' started by Jim, Mar 11, 2011.

    1. Autumnly
      Wishful

      Autumnly Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame Advocate

      Location:
      Germany
      Tinnitus Since:
      July/August 2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      Here we have it. Pawel Jastreboff, the creator of TRT, says that only 5% don't benefit from TRT because these people are (paraphrasing here) whiny, negative and have a victim mentality. He explains how “habituation of reaction” leads to “habituation of perception”, implying long-term sufferers are at fault for their own suffering. He goes on to say TRT is “good enough for tinnitus as a problem”, even calling it a “cure" for "tinnitus as a problem”.

      Further, he openly mocks sufferers, implies they could easily receive financial compensation for tinnitus which is why they don't want to get better and doesn’t mention once that tinnitus can be debilitating or that we need medical treatments. Loudness doesn’t matter - at all. Even subjective tinnitus can be tuned out.

      If you are a proponent of TRT and think people are over-reacting by saying TRT spreads harmful misconceptions, I hope this video will change your mind.
       
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    2. Michael Leigh

      Michael Leigh Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Brighton, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      April /1996
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      @Bobby Sinatra

      Thank you for submitting Professor Pawel Jastreboff's video to this forum and I hope it is not removed. I am a believer in TRT having had the treatment twice with good results. I am talking about proper TRT and not a scaled down version of it. I have written many posts on the treatment and believe some people will benefit from what I have said that may want to try it. It is a long term treatment and not a cure but a lot of people do find the perception of the tinnitus noise, is lowered over time. I had severe hyperacusis that was completely cured wearing white noise generators as part of TRT (sound therapy) I also had regular counselling with my Hearing Therapist. The tinnitus reduced to a very low level at the end of 2 years.

      I had a second noise trauma some years later that increased the tinnitus. The hyperacusis did not return and still remains silent. TRT the 2nd time lasted two years, although the tinnitus improved it wasn't as successful as the first time. It took a total of 4 years to habituate for the second time. According to my ENT Consultant and Hearing Therapist, I have a rare type of noise induced tinnitus that they don't often come across in patients. It has large fluctuations in intensity meaning no two days are the same. This was particularly difficult to manage during the 4 years habituation: 2008 -2012.

      The tinnitus still varies from: complete silence, mild, moderate, severe and can reach very severe levels, requiring me to take clonazepam medication to calm it down over 12hrs to a more manageable level. I hasten to add medication is not always required to reduce the tinnitus as it can do so by it self. I take clonazepam once or twice per month for a day or two and stop. In the 9 years I have been taking it thankfully, I have never had a problem. I have found it of immense help when nothing else worked due to the tinnitus being very severe. Please click on the link below and read my post: My experience with tinnitus.

      I agree with a lot with what Professor Pawel Jastreboff has said in his video. I am experienced in noise induced tinnitus, written a lot about the condition. Corresponded and counselled people with it and contributed posts to this thread on TRT. What I am about to say may not sit well with some people. Therefore, my comments are for those new to tinnitus particularly noise induced, because that is what I am familiar with. Please keep an open mind about TRT and try not to be discouraged by people that are against it and say it doesn't work, it's a scam and not effective. This is not true. It is also true that is may not work for everyone. However, having a negative mindset or allowing yourself to be drawn in by negative thinking people you will become just like them and therefore, with this mindset it is a surety TRT or any tinnitus treatment will not help to you. Unknowingly you will have convinced yourself from the outset that no tinnitus treatment will work, and your future is one of doom and gloom, as far as seeing improvement in your tinnitus.

      As Professor Jastreboff has said and I agree entirely. There are some people that believe their tinnitus is worse than anyone else, and will do their best to make sure everyone gets to hear about it. They will visit tinnitus forums and other social media platforms. Moaning and groaning and blaming the world, their government and health organisations for the difficulties they are going through because a cure for tinnitus has not been found. I have news for these people: 19 out of 20 medical conditions cannot be cured. Many of them can be treated and people are able to carry on with their life doing everything that they wish to.

      There is no doubt, tinnitus can be a very debilitating condition when it is severe and this is sustained. I know because I have been there but it many cases, people do not have it severe 24/7 and thus, it can be successfully treated (not necessarily cured at this time ) with a variety of treatments such as: TRT, CBT, Sound Therapy, Counselling, Mindfullness, Medication, Relaxation Therapy, Hearing aids. One or a combination of these treatment can be very helpful.

      Michael

      https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/my-experience-with-tinnitus.12076/
       
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    3. DaveFromChicago

      DaveFromChicago Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Headcold/Flu
      To Autumnly and Bobby Sinatra:

      Thanks very much for posting this commentary.

      Now I know precisely what is so defective and in fact detrimental about TRT.

      Jastreboff is very reminiscent of the obsolete, old school pyschiatrists in the 60's and 70's. (His "methodology" compelled the recollection of the once famous Bruno Bettelheim, who so wrongly shamed mothers of autistic children by blaming them for being cold and withdrawn as nurturers).

      He begins with an utterly outdated emphasis on the allegedly unconscious mind as so influential (amazingly,
      in affecting tinnitus).

      He then slithers around with the specious definition of a cure for tinnitus "as no longer being a problem" (with the omission that his methods will not reduce the tinnitus by one iota).
      I now know where JCH got so many of his idiotic analogies from. Jastreboff states that your perception of your tinnitus should be ignorable, just as you are unaware of the humming sound of your refrigerator when you are in your kitchen. I would like to ask him how easy this would be if the sound was similar to that of a fully charged chain saw.

      Unbelievably, he says that patients who are unresponsive to TRT are "black waivers"; they want severe tinnitus so that they will get attention and be the center of everyone's concern. Others want the tinnitus to remain intrusive so that they can remain eligible for disability compensation or a lawsuit. This is no more than a phony, cheap self-serving rationalization for the uselessness of much of his method that guilts those who are unresponsive.

      Once again, he is utilizing the toxic "blaming the victim" approach so reminiscent of the earlier eras of psychiatry.

      (This reminds me of how gay people were once told by psychiatrists that if they could not transform themselves into heterosexuals it was because of their own character failings).

      Finally, he insists that no drug will ever alleviate tinnitus because in order to do so it will make the patient into a "zombie." I can't believe that I'm hearing this from a so-called physician, who is so superannuated that he has not internalized the effectiveness of at least 30 years of pharmaceutical discoveries.

      This is another blatantly self serving tactic; the last thing he wants is a drug that will actually alleviate tinnitus
      and render unnecessary all of his commentary.
       
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    4. all to gain
      No Mood

      all to gain Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      -
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      -
      I sent Pawel Jastreboff an email asking if he would sign the petition currently going on for funding for research into a cure.

      I never received a whimper :(
       
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    5. bobvann
      Devilish

      bobvann Member

      Location:
      Inside the vortex
      Tinnitus Since:
      April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      E drums headphones
      Interesting he also boasts how it is better than CBT. Speaking of CBT, if you read this book unlike what some of you are saying that carrying on playing some musical instruments will cause more harm. This tinnitus CBT book says otherwise. We all know 5% is far from accurate.
       

      Attached Files:

    6. FGG
      No Mood

      FGG Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Multi-factorial
      This is literally the tactic used by faith healers like Benny Hinn. If it didn't work, it's because you didn't believe strong enough or weren't praying right.
       
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    7. Michael Leigh

      Michael Leigh Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Brighton, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      April /1996
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      I do not believe Jastreboff is boasting when he says TRT is better than CBT. I had a brief spell of CBT whilst having TRT for the 2nd time. I believe TRT is better. I applaud him for developing the treatment much to the displeasure and chagrin of professional complainers and negative thinking people, that attend tinnitus forums and other social media platforms.

      There is a stark difference between people that genuinely find tinnitus troublesome and problematic to deal with and want help, from those that post in forums regularly and never have anything positive to say. These are known as professional complainers and they know who they are. The crux of the matter is this: Whatever treatment one has for tinnitus it can't do it alone. The person affected has to try and help themselves by reinforcing positivity and this means accentuating the positive not the negative things in your life.

      Michael
       
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    8. Autumnly
      Wishful

      Autumnly Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame Advocate

      Location:
      Germany
      Tinnitus Since:
      July/August 2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      Jastreboff did not make that distinction. At no point did he say that tinnitus can be debilitating, that we need medical treatments or that TRT won't be enough for everyone. He literally said the only people don't benefit from TRT are negative, on benzos or don't want to get better.

      It's obvious from the video that Jastreboff has nothing but contempt for severe sufferers. He said TRT is good enough for "tinnitus as a problem" - that leaves no room for tinnitus being debilitating in itself or the need for treatments that can actually reduce tinnitus loudness.

      He even contradicts himself at the end - he says there will never be a treatment that allows someone not to perceive their tinnitus but then says TRT will lead to "habituation of perception".
       
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    9. Michael Leigh

      Michael Leigh Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Brighton, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      April /1996
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      I am only going to say this once. You can quote my posts in future if you wish but I will not respond to you. However, whenever you choose to post a funny emote on my posts as you have done on more than one occasion, I will respond in kind. I find such conduct very disrespectful and for this reason want nothing more do with you.

      Goodbye.
      Michael
       
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    10. Autumnly
      Wishful

      Autumnly Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame Advocate

      Location:
      Germany
      Tinnitus Since:
      July/August 2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      You've been disrespectful to severe sufferers in many of your posts. From saying someone's tinnitus isn't debilitating if they post on here regularly, to calling people negative, to defending Jastreboff despite him clearly mocking sufferers, to completely ignoring any valid criticism people have voiced against you.

      If you watch that video and you still defend TRT and Jastreboff, you're part of the problem, not the solution.
       
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    11. DaveFromChicago

      DaveFromChicago Member Benefactor

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2014
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Headcold/Flu
      To FGG:

      You are entirely correct. This is in fact a tactic employed by every Cult Leader (I am reminded of Jim Jones).

      It is also an integral component of the indoctrination programs in every fascist / totalitarian regime (especially,
      for example, in North Korea).

      Also, just from viewing that 12 minute video, Jastreboff comes across as insufferably opinionated, cold, judgmental and utterly humorless. It would totally creep me out to be alone in a room with him.
       
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    12. david c

      david c Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2012
      On the whole TRT/CBT debate: What always surprises me is the number of people who might attack TRT while applauding CBT. In actuality TRT and CBT are very similar: both assume that your tinnitus can be "treated" by counselling designed to change your attitude to the tinnitus sound. TRT simply includes additionally wearing white noise generators as part of their protocol.

      Having had both TRT and CBT I can say that I found neither particularly helpful. That said, I wouldn't want to particularly attack people who found either helpful or people who found neither helpful. Neither TRT or CBT can really be classed as tinnitus treatments - though they might help some tinnitus "comorbidities".

      What we need are new and effective treatments for tinnitus - medication developments or stem cell research would seem the most likely candidates - rather than to spend a lot of time on either CBT or TRT.
       
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    13. bobvann
      Devilish

      bobvann Member

      Location:
      Inside the vortex
      Tinnitus Since:
      April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      E drums headphones
      Pawel Jastreboff could have just delved into the method and science. He did not even bring up WNG's once. Perhaps he could have demystified the use of ear buds vs hearing aids. I do find the whole meds turning people into zombies and people suffering to get large payouts sound a bit like a conspiracy theorist.
       
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    14. FGG
      No Mood

      FGG Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2019
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Multi-factorial
      Cults also have a standard mantra of "don't look at other sources, only trust those who also believe in this truth" and "ours in the only answer." Not to mention emphasis on how misguided, and negative non-believers are.
       
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    15. Michael Leigh

      Michael Leigh Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Brighton, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      April /1996
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      Jastreboff has spoken a lot of truth in his video and I agree with him. Unfortunately this will not bode well with people that thrive on negativity. It is for this reason, I advise people to keep away from tinnitus forums when they are about to start treatments such as CBT, TRT, Counselling etc and not to discuss the treatments they are having in them.

      Michael
       
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    16. Autumnly
      Wishful

      Autumnly Member Podcast Patron Benefactor Ambassador Hall of Fame Advocate

      Location:
      Germany
      Tinnitus Since:
      July/August 2013
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      Ah, yes, the people that disagree with the dangerous misconceptions he's spreading are simply negative.
       
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    17. bobvann
      Devilish

      bobvann Member

      Location:
      Inside the vortex
      Tinnitus Since:
      April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      E drums headphones
      It's a fact that it and WNGs are not for everybody. To which we had one of the Doctors weigh in. Is he being negative too? I get what you are saying and I know you believe in it.
       
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    18. Michael Leigh

      Michael Leigh Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Brighton, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      April /1996
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      Hi @bobvann,

      When white noise generators are properly used and coupled with counselling with an Audiologist/Hearing Therapist trained in tinnitus and hyperacusis management and treatment, I am certain, most of the time (probably not always) hyperacusis will be reduced and often it is cured. It is the improper use of white noise generators and no follow up counselling is the problem.

      In your case you used WNGs for a few weeks then you threw in the towel saying they don't work. You then mentioned Dr. Nagler as the TRT expert, who says WNGs don't work for everyone. I am not claiming I know all about TRT and noise induced tinnitus, I do not. I have had tinnitus for 24 years and had TRT twice. Each treatment lasted 2 years. That is a total of 4 years experience with TRT. I think that qualifies me to speak on about the therapy.

      @fishbone, a tinnitus veteran like myself, has had the condition for over 30 years. He's had TRT with good results. We know it isn't a cure but it often helps people. However, if one convinces themselves the treatment wont work or gives up after 2 months, then it's not surprising CBT or TRT won't be effective.

      I told you about the person that I was in contact with that was about to start treatment for his hyperacusis wearing one white noise generator - he was told by his Audiologist only one is required not two. She said all her patients have been cured of hyperacusis using her treatment programme. The only people she said that don't improve are those that don't stick to the treatment. Treatment takes up to 18 months.

      Michael
       
    19. IAmCalifornia
      Wishful

      IAmCalifornia Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Pennsylvania
      Tinnitus Since:
      this year
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      i wish i knew
      When Michael Leigh defends TRT.

      21D0554B-DB37-4D85-8ACA-623B8DA3687B.jpeg
       
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    20. Contrast
      No Mood

      Contrast Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Clown World
      Tinnitus Since:
      late 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      noise injury
      some mothers of autistics and neurotypicals are exactly that way. The only difference is the neurotypical is not going to be as socially/developmentally effected by it.
       
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    21. Hazel
      Dreaming

      Hazel Director Staff Podcast Patron Benefactor Hall of Fame Advocate

      Location:
      the Netherlands
      Tinnitus Since:
      10/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      one-sided hearing loss (of unknown origin)
      Why would we remove a video that we ourselves created? I mean, you can see the Tinnitus Hub logo pasted all over it. This video is part of our TRI 2019 series where we interviewed a whole bunch of researchers.

      That's not to say we agree with any of his message, but we're committed to delivering the full scope of tinnitus research to this forum, and Pawel Jastreboff is part of that.
       
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    22. Michael Leigh

      Michael Leigh Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Brighton, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      April /1996
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      Thank you enlightening me and I am pleased that the video will remain. I don't usually watch videos on this forum and that was the reason I didn't see the Tinnitus Hub logo you mention. Whilst you and others may not agree with Pawel Jastreboff's comments, I agree with them entirely.

      I wish you well.
      Michael
       
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    23. bobvann
      Devilish

      bobvann Member

      Location:
      Inside the vortex
      Tinnitus Since:
      April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      E drums headphones
      That may very well be the case.
       
    24. Michael Leigh

      Michael Leigh Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Brighton, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      April /1996
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      Tinnitus can be complex and to treat it is the same. This condition is intrinsically linked to our mental and emotional wellbeing and therefore, many things can affect it. In order for a person to have success with TRT, CBT or any other tinnitus treatment, they need to be approached with an open mind. In addition to this, I believe it is best to keep away from tinnitus forums whilst having TRT and it's important not to discuss the treatment in them. Positivity needs to be reinforced by engaging in things that you like to do. TRT is a long term treatment and not a quick fix.
       
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    25. Sironketchup

      Sironketchup Member

      Tinnitus Since:
      11/2018
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      SSHL / Stress
      So you really want to say only people who don't want to get better will continue to suffer?
      Sorry but I can't take you seriously anymore!

      TRT is a joke. Honestly, what does TRT do?
      They say "ignore the tinnitus" and put a noiser into you ears.
      How are these noisers different from everyday sounds? Everyday sounds are below you tinnitus as well, so your brain habituates.
      What else does TRT do?
      When watching his interview I didn't know if I should laugh or cry.
       
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    26. Michael Leigh

      Michael Leigh Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Brighton, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      April /1996
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      I do not visit this forum to engage in idle banter or try to achieve one-upmanship against you or anyone else. I know how debilitating tinnitus can be because I have been there. I have said my piece and that is the end of it. Whether you want to take me seriously or not is entirely your choice.

      Goodbye.
      Michael
       
    27. IAmCalifornia
      Wishful

      IAmCalifornia Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Pennsylvania
      Tinnitus Since:
      this year
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      i wish i knew
      Bootlicker.
       
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    28. bobvann
      Devilish

      bobvann Member

      Location:
      Inside the vortex
      Tinnitus Since:
      April 2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      E drums headphones
      Exactly as with CBT, it's difficult to determine if it's due to our response or the competence of the therapist as you mention, it's all so complex. I will see what she has to say on the 4th...
       
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    29. Helheim
      Angry

      Helheim Member Podcast Patron

      Tinnitus Since:
      01/2017
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Infection
      Why are any of you engaging with Mr. Leigh here? He's clearly a good little TRT padawan! jUsT haBItuAte lol
       
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    30. Michael Leigh

      Michael Leigh Member Benefactor Hall of Fame

      Location:
      Brighton, UK
      Tinnitus Since:
      April /1996
      Cause of Tinnitus:
      Noise induced
      People choose to engage with me because I know what I am talking about and have experience with Noise induced tinnitus, and the way it affects a person's mental and emotional wellbeing. I have submitted over 6000 posts to this forum. Written a 13,000 word article on tinnitus. I mention this not to paint myself in glory just to put you in your place.

      Thankfully there are other members here equally as knowledgeable and those that know more, who I am always willing to learn from.

      Gooday to you
      Michael
       
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